The Berklee $7,300,000 Zappa tribute band

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

You know Zappa, the enthusiastic capitalist who raison d’etre was to produce more work (and enjoy a comfortable family life) because it ... y’know .... interested him?

I have to say intuitively I doubt the music education system could produce another Zappa. It’s not talent per se ... it comes from something else. Zappa came from nowhere.

So Gumbo has something of a point in there, I feel.... the college system probably filters for certain types of individual.

To be clear, Zappa was largely self-taught, roight? He'd didn't go to a music school.

[christianm77]

Maybe some are jaundiced but my point above is that it is possible to pursue what you love for far less than what academia demands. I quoted $5K per year and at a place like Berklee etc it is far more than that. That buys a lot of private lessons, theory books, CD' to lift parts from, shows to take in, instruments to buy... It is possible to self teach also with all the resources out there to help..say, a few basic theory books, some cds, a few technique books, time and some fellow musicians is all you need but, in a world of qualification inflation, that seems too far fetched for some.

I don’t think the experience of going to a place like Berklee can necessarily be summed up in those terms. But tbh you’d have to ask a graduate.

Every musician is the product of a wider community. That’s one important thing colleges provide.

[christianm77]

To be clear, Zappa was largely self-taught, roight? He'd didn't go to a music school.

Correct.

[pcsanwald]

Every musician is the product of a wider community. That’s one important thing colleges provide.

This is so important. I think there are multiple roads, but, certainly, going to university gives you a social network of hopefully very good jazz musicians that you will likely play with for a long time to come. I still play most regularly with a tenor player I met at music school 18 years ago. I know a bunch of other folks from school in that similar time and while they aren't the only people in my network, they are an important component. When I studied with Brad Shepik, he mentioned that he still plays with a lot of people that he met when he first moved to NYC.

[cosmic gumbo]

One of the best musicians I know is a bassist, low brass player (tuba!), he was a highly recognized high school musician and could have been accepted into any music school in the US, with plenty of scholarship help, he was recruited by many schools.But....

He went to Boston to study law, and spent every spare moment at Berklee jamming with anyone/everyone, people assumed he was a student there, but he didn't spend one minute in a classroom. Just...four years of jamming, little bit of gigging.

After graduating with a law degree, he went to work for the state prosecutor and gigged locally like a madman. No music degree, but did the Berklee hang and network. Very, very smart man.

[Litterick]

Zappa came from a comfortable middle-class family background.

[pcsanwald]

He went to Boston to study law, and spent every spare moment at Berklee jamming with anyone/everyone, people assumed he was a student there, but he didn't spend one minute in a classroom. Just...four years of jamming, little bit of gigging.

This is certainly a good approach, particularly if you're already a very good player. I play with several fulltime musicians who took this approach and majored in things like anthropology or philosophy, but went to schools with good music programs and gigged a lot. Joshua Redman basically did this, he didn't study music as an undergrad. I think maybe Miles Okazaki also didn't major in music undergrad maybe?

There's also folks that go to berklee, but do film scoring or education or something like that.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

This is certainly a good approach, particularly if you're already a very good player. I play with several fulltime musicians who took this approach and majored in things like anthropology or philosophy, but went to schools with good music programs and gigged a lot. Joshua Redman basically did this, he didn't study music as an undergrad. I think maybe Miles Okazaki also didn't major in music undergrad maybe?

Is majoring in anthropology or philosophy any better?

[pcsanwald]

Is majoring in anthropology or philosophy any better?

I have no idea. I do think there's a place in the world for studying something at college that you might love, that doesn't necessarily directly map into a profitable career. I studied computer science as an undergraduate because I deeply loved it, and it was the only thing I was good at besides music. I've been super lucky in that it's turned into a great career, but, I think someone who has the same love for another discipline should have that same opportunity.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I have no idea. I do think there's a place in the world for studying something at college that you might love, that doesn't necessarily directly map into a profitable career. I studied computer science as an undergraduate because I deeply loved it, and it was the only thing I was good at besides music. I've been super lucky in that it's turned into a great career, but, I think someone who has the same love for another discipline should have that same opportunity.

Oh yes, I'm not telling anyone what to do. It was more of a "relative" question: is studying philosophy (say) rather than music showing you are more career-minded? I don't know.

[Tal_175]

This is like complaining that business schools charge a lot, but not everybody comes out to be the next Silicon Valley billionaire. Whaaaa. Plus - we could also point out that a lot of those guys are dropouts. (Gates, Dell, etc.) See - who needs school!?!?!?! It's so dumb!!

And what about Med and Law school? They cost a bundle and not everyone turns out to be a top partner in a top surgical practice or a top partner in a scum sucking class action lawsuit firm. How unjust.

The difference here is that if you have an MBA from an ivy league school (business equivalent of Berklee) or a Law degree or an MD, you don't need to be the next Silicon Valley start up hit or top partner in surgical practice to pay your debt and afford a middle class (or even upper-middle class living).
You can't compare the realistic average earning potential of a doctor or a lawyer with someone with a jazz studies degree.

[Tal_175]

Smaller colleges yes, but Berklee gives a ton of scholarships, especially to foreign students. It is a PR thing, and an investment for them. When I was there, practically every decent foreign student had at least a part time scholarship. Most of the better players from the years I was there have done a lot music wise since. Lage Lund, Lionel Lueke, Kendrick Scott, Walter Smith, Peter Slavov, Mamiko Watanabe, Gus G, Warren Wolf, Marco Panascia, Jaleel Shaw, Mark Kelly, so many others I can't remember now. Pretty much the 5-10 best players in every instrument have records to their name and a strong carrier going. That's a big percentage if you consider that there weren't more than 3-4 hundred students doing performance studies, and most of them left the states afterwards. Almost everyone I knew that was serious about playing then still performs music for a living today, almost 20 years later.

I know of some of these players you listed, they are very good. But I bet most of them (if not all) went to Berklee because it was free for them (with full scholarships). So it was crazy not to go there as a star student and get all the attention of the first class faculty, meet other good players, get gigs in NY (because they are good enough). But most of them probably even didn't need to go to Berklee to be where they are now. Some may not have even finished it.
The question is whether going to Berklee is still a wise decision for those students who aren't Lage Lund and have to pay full or most of the tuition and whose names won't appear in the lists like you put in your post.

[Tal_175]

Heck--there's plenty of people here who think education at our nation's Universities only serves as an indoctrination into the radical left.

That's because political views that would considered center-right in countries like Canada or Germany is called communism in the states. Like public healthcare and education. It's all relative.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

That's because political views that would considered center-right in countries like Canada or Germany is called communism in the states. Like public healthcare and education. It's all relative.

Well, c'mon! Zappa ... medley?!

[Tal_175]

I'd love to go to a jazz school for a few years and completely immerse myself in music and meet many musicians. But I'd consider that a long and very expensive vacation, not a career investment. As I'm not a Lage (Lund or Julian) which would leave me with things I have 0 interest in: teaching or having to do music gigs outside of my (relatively narrow) musical interests. But it'd be lovely to do.
To me it's like taking a couple of years off to go do diving expeditions around the world or something.

[Doctor Jeff]

Zappa was not exactly self-taught, though he didn't have as much formal education as a lot of people and certainly not as much as most folks who write orchestral music.

Did Frank Zappa learn about music theory? Why? - Quora

Not all jazz greats "came up from the streets" either. Miles went to Juilliard for 3 semesters and Coltrane went to music school until WW2 intervened.

[Alter]

The question is whether going to Berklee is still a wise decision for those students who aren't Lage Lund and have to pay full or most of the tuition and whose names won't appear in the lists like you put in your post.

Only a small percentage of students in Berklee are about performance (when I was there i'd say about 400 out of 4000), most do other, music or art related majors. Those who do performance, either are at a very high level and they go after a jazz career, or perform as musicians at various other styles, or have a good degree to fall back upon, be it teaching, music therapy, all the other majors, etc. If someone is not at the level to at least being able to hang with players like Lund,lueke,etc as a sideman, they have no reason trying to become professional jazz players to begin with, no school or anything else can fix that. Most US kids I found were very aware of that, the difficulty and crazy high level one has to have to consider professional jazz performance in the Us, and were very careful about the majors they chose. But in many other countries the level is not as high, and someone who wouldn't make it in NYC can still make a very good living there.

[Jazzstdnt]

The difference here is that if you have an MBA from an ivy league school (business equivalent of Berklee) or a Law degree or an MD, you don't need to be the next Silicon Valley start up hit or top partner in surgical practice to pay your debt and afford a middle class (or even upper-middle class living).
You can't compare the realistic average earning potential of a doctor or a lawyer with someone with a jazz studies degree.

Well you had to go pretty far to make a comparison. That's not apples to apples.

A bachelors in music vs. two degrees, and IVY league at that! And like I said earlier, a music grad can go earn their MBA or law degree as well (albeit after earning some additional credits most likely).

Furthermore, not all lawyers do that well, and the same goes for doctors and MBAs. Ask Doctor Jeff about being a family practice guy.

[Tal_175]

Well you had to go pretty far to make a comparison. That's not apples to apples.

A bachelors in music vs. two degrees, and IVY league at that! And like I said earlier, a music grad can go earn their MBA or law degree as well (albeit after earning some additional credits most likely).

Furthermore, not all lawyers do that well, and the same goes for doctors and MBAs. Ask Doctor Jeff about being a family practice guy.

I didn't really go very far. Not comparing with having two degrees but any one of the degrees with a music degree. You were comparing becoming a doctor, lawyer or having MBA in business with jazz studies degree. I think that's an extremely optimistic comparison for the prospects of typical music degree holder. I said ivy league (doesn't need to be) because the context is Berklee degree (one of the most recognised non-classical music degrees), so it wouldn't be fair to compare it with a no name MBA program. Yeah not every doctor or lawyer makes a lot of money. That doesn't mean earning potential is the same on average as having a music degree.
I'm in fact quite pleasantly surprised to learn that there are people out there who think being a doctor or lawyer is more or less the same income prospect as having a music degree. World is not such a bad place afterall

[Litterick]

Here are some people who dropped out of Berklee.

Al di Meola, Emily Remler, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Quincy Jones, Melissa Etheridge, Bruce Cockburn, John Mayer, St Vincent, Booker Ervin, Donald Fagen, Aimee Mann, Ben McKee of Imagine Dragons, Psy, Dream Theater's founding members John Petrucci, John Myung and Mike Portnoy.

There may be many others who haven't been discovered, as Tom Lehrer might say. But dropping could be a sensible strategy in financial and career terms, as discussed here in the Boston Globe.

[Jazzstdnt]

I didn't really go very far. Not comparing with having two degrees but any one of the degrees with a music degree. You were comparing becoming a doctor, lawyer or having MBA in business with jazz studies degree. I think that's an extremely optimistic comparison for the prospects of typical music degree holder. I said ivy league (doesn't need to be) because the context is Berklee degree (one of the most recognised non-classical music degrees), so it wouldn't be fair to compare it with a no name MBA program. Yeah not every doctor or lawyer makes a lot of money. That doesn't mean earning potential is the same on average as having a music degree.
I'm in fact quite pleasantly surprised to learn that there are people out there who think being a doctor or lawyer is more or less the same income prospect as having a music degree. World is not such a bad place afterall

I'm not saying that a music degree is the best idea, and agree that earning one of those other degrees - especially a medical degree or IVY league MBA is a better idea than earning an undergraduate music degree - unless one is a very special musician to boot. In fact, it needn't be an IVY league MBA to be a very sound investment.

I'm confident that a music major can approach the MBA degree, albeit with some additional courses taken in advance, depending on what their undergrad university required. They may not need anything other than a solid GMAT and references.

Cheers.

[Tal_175]

I remember reading in an interview with Al Di Meola that when he went to Berklee he realized that he already knew everything they were teaching at the program, he was way ahead of the curriculum. So they asked him to teach instead. He said that was because he had a really good private teacher as a kid.
Well, I'm sure he also soaked up the material like a sponge when he was taking lessons.

[zdub]

Nothing to say except that I liked the performance! (And also the blond guitarist grated on me. Good player, but found him quite pretentious. Yeah, I'm superficial.)

[sgcim]

A drummer friend of mine was teaching his HS student, a very talented kid drummer, who is now a jazz performance major at MSM.
He asked my friend, "I don't understand it Mr. D., you're a great drummer, you studied with John Riley (V V Orchestra drummer), Kenny Washington, you've played with every jazz musician I've ever heard of; why are you teaching music at a high school?"

My friend answered him, "Well I've got a habit that I need to pay for every day."

The student asked him, "Gee, Mr. D., what habit is that?"

My friend replied, " I've got this habit where I NEED TO EAT A FEW TIMES A DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!"

A lot of the posters here remind me of that kid.

[Roberoo]

Zappa came from a comfortable middle-class family background.

That picture is really something.... Serous or having some fun? I know some 1970s Italian-Canadian families that would fit this mold... although the furniture would be covered in plastic.

[FwLineberry]

Zappa came from a comfortable middle-class family background.

That picture is really something.... Serous or having some fun? I know some 1970s Italian-Canadian families that would fit this mold... although the furniture would be covered in plastic.

That picture is from the mid 1970s and was taken in Frank's living room at the time. Check the art on the wall. Do you think Frank's parents were really into Alice Cooper?

Here's a picture from Frank's adolescence:




.

[Litterick]

That picture is really something.... Serous or having some fun? I know some 1970s Italian-Canadian families that would fit this mold... although the furniture would be covered in plastic.

It is one of a series. You can see the humour in it.

[Roberoo]

Sure...but man it is so close to reality. That said, my Italo-Canadian friends had a lot of fun teasing me about being a mangiacake (look it up) and that was close to reality too.

[Litterick]

His father was a scientist in the defence industry. I doubt they were poor.

[greveost]

Do you honestly believe that if someone today wants to pursue any music related profession there is a better way to do it other than studying music in the best college/University they can afford?

Actually yes...

[greveost]

The Berklee $7,300,000 Zappa tribute band. When only these 29 students have completed four years at Berklee, they will have collectively paid $7,300,000 for their education. Enjoy the most expensive band that money can't buy.

Am I wrong to be disturbed that this is the representation of the jazz economy where students pay institutions vs this money going to support working musicians? That money would equate to 7,300 gigs that paid $1000 to working jazz groups.

So instead of only 29 Berklee students' expenses, how about all jazz students in US? That amount of money is so high that you might see how academia is a lucrative industry that soaks up most of the available money for the jazz economy. Is this justifiable, or just big business?

Believe me folks, the money is there, but it doesn't go to support the artists. Academia prefers they get the money, like any other business would. They are not blind to what they are doing, and of course, most grads won't agree to any of this, because of human nature....

Basic economics, supply and demand.
High demand for jazz education, many people want to learn to play. Not many people are willing to pay for the nusic.

[greveost]

Well, c'mon! Zappa ... medley?!

Who is Zappa, never heard of him

[Jazzstdnt]

Who is Zappa, never heard of him

He was before your time. At your age are you under the impression that you've heard of every musician or composer of note?

If you ever go to Berklee you'll learn music history, including the history of rock, although you could just read that stuff.

You play very nicely BTW. As well as you play you should upload a full song that goes from start to finish. If you don't have a band just use a backing track with something more than drums, or better yet play an unaccompanied solo guitar piece.

Berklee - and every other college - will require that you do that each and every time you perform, other than short ideas in a private lesson. Anything that is performance related in front of humans beyond your teacher? Full song.

What do you say?

[FwLineberry]

Who is Zappa, never heard of him

Exactly what 99% of the public is saying.

.

[greveost]

He was before your time. At your age are you under the impression that you've heard of every musician or composer of note?

If you ever go to Berklee you'll learn music history, including the history of rock, although you could just read that stuff.

You play very nicely BTW. As well as you play you should upload a full song that goes from start to finish. If you don't have a band just use a backing track with something more than drums, or better yet play an unaccompanied solo guitar piece.

Berklee - and every other college - will require that you do that each and every time you perform, other than short ideas in a private lesson. Anything that is performance related in front of humans beyond your teacher? Full song.

What do you say?

Thank you for your comment about me playing well.

I was unfortunately never interested in solo guitar playing

I also happens to know theory

About Zappa, well, it was a joke

[christianm77]

Seriously though, the quality of young players now never ceases to amaze me. Nice one dude.

[christianm77]

Thank you for your comment about me playing well.

I was unfortunately never interested in solo guitar playing

I also happens to know theory

About Zappa, well, it was a joke

I know this will make me sound about 1,000,000 years old, but a lot of young very accomplished players seem to have what I would think of as surprising holes in their knowledge. I tend to find them usually fairly knowledgable about old old jazz stuff (1950s) but not so much about more recent things (70s 80s, 90s even) Snarky fans that have never heard of Wayne Krantz or Weather Report, and so on.

So it wasn't actually such an obvious joke to me.

Re: Solo guitar- it doesn't interest me as much as ensemble playing either, but wait until you find yourself on a gig in the position of having to do it in public because the sax player's fast food choices are catching up with them.

[kris]

Zappa loved jazz and he played with some of great jazz muscicians in ex. J.L.Ponty or G.Duke.Great staff.

[greveost]

I know this will make me sound about 1,000,000 years old, but a lot of young very accomplished players seem to have what I would think of as surprising holes in their knowledge. I tend to find them usually fairly knowledgable about old old jazz stuff (1950s) but not so much about more recent things (70s 80s, 90s even) Snarky fans that have never heard of Wayne Krantz or Weather Report, and so on.

I saw Krantz live back in the days when he used to play 55 bar in NYC, it was amazing!

Actually, I am mainly interested in stuff from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's and forward when it comes to Jazz, rock, fusion etc.

So it wasn't actually such an obvious joke to me.

No problem, I should have put a smiley or something, hehe

Re: Solo guitar- it doesn't interest me as much as ensemble playing either, but wait until you find yourself on a gig in the position of having to do it in public because the sax player's fast food choices are catching up with them.

Haha, yeah, need to pick sax players wisely

[Jazzstdnt]

Thank you for your comment about me playing well.

I was unfortunately never interested in solo guitar playing

I also happens to know theory

About Zappa, well, it was a joke

That makes sense, because I was thinking that you played like someone who HAS heard of Steve Vai. ahem.

Another thought - the Guitar IS a solo instrument that adapts to large ensemble formats.

Anyway, you're pretty close to playing solo guitar on these recordings. You just need and intro, accompaniment of other instruments and/or voices, and an ending to make a complete musical statement/performance. Some variation in compositional sections is useful too.

I'm quite sure that you can do it - so - if you're seeking feedback about your playing on the world wide web you should fully engage the listener by playing a complete musical performance. You might be surprised at the difference in feedback between an impressive excerpt and a full performance.

[lawson-stone]

Most will be paying full fees. That is how the college makes its money.

Oddly not necessarily true. Raising tuition allows administrations to talk about how much their students struggle to pay their fees and how dedicated they are, which allows them to appeal to patrons for scholarship money far beyond the actual costs of the education provided.

The real racket in education is outside the instutitons, in the student loan business, which which schools are of course complicit.

Also: Berklee doesn't just teach jazz, right? So this $7.3M is not coming out of the jazz economy, but from the total music economy. Right?

[pcsanwald]

Also: Berklee doesn't just teach jazz, right? So this $7.3M is not coming out of the jazz economy, but from the total music economy. Right?

I think it's mostly coming out of the "well off parents" economy. It's not like people are attending these schools and paying the bill when they're done. Most people either have scholarships, relatives who can afford to help, or both. Paying the full bill of tuition is at least 120k, people are by and large not going to these schools thinking they are gonna pay off that debt with a successful jazz/music career afterwards.

My experience is that many, maybe most people, aren't paying full tuition. I got a modest scholarship to the new school, and I was/am an unremarkable but competent player. I went to the new school after I got an undergrad degree, in computer science, and worked as a software engineer while I went to music school part time, and was able to pay my tuition bill with money from my day job. I couldn't have done this without my (modest) scholarship.

I knew many, many people with similar scholarship stories. I suspect very few people pay the sticker price for music school.

[greveost]

That makes sense, because I was thinking that you played like someone who HAS heard of Steve Vai. ahem.

I was never really into Vai, but I do understand his importance for a certain style of playing.

Anyway, you're pretty close to playing solo guitar on these recordings. You just need and intro, accompaniment of other instruments and/or voices,

The clip where I play jazz, is a very spontaneous spur of the moment thing, nothing planned ahead, except I set the drum loop for a certain amount of bars.

I like to practice and also jam/play with only drums sometimes. And sometimes of course add a bass as well. So it is all intentional. Playing duo with a real drummer is of course much better though.

[hogrider16]

Such a jaundiced view of education here. Whatever happened to studying something because it interests you?

I suppose taking joy in education is a decadent notion from a bygone age and now all we are meant to be interested in are job opportunities.

+1

I earned a Master's in theology because it interests me. I'm never going to use it. I'm actually looking at going back and finishing my music degree too, even though I'll never be a full time musician again.

You get out of a degree exactly what you put into it. I went to North Carolina School of the Arts as a string bass performance major. I took every class available related to playing, played in all of the ensembles that I could, played in as many of the local orchestras as I could, played in as many recitals as I could, performed duets with other people when I had time. I was up every morning at 6:30, rarely went to bed before midnight. My playing was exponentially better after a year. I knew other people there that did the absolute minimum to get by and they sounded about the same after a year.

If you don't get anything out of a degree program, blame yourself, not the program.

[Tal_175]

+1

I earned a Master's in theology because it interests me. I'm never going to use it. I'm actually looking at going back and finishing my music degree too, even though I'll never be a full time musician again.

You get out of a degree exactly what you put into it. I went to North Carolina School of the Arts as a string bass performance major. I took every class available related to playing, played in all of the ensembles that I could, played in as many of the local orchestras as I could, played in as many recitals as I could, performed duets with other people when I had time. I was up every morning at 6:30, rarely went to bed before midnight. My playing was exponentially better after a year. I knew other people there that did the absolute minimum to get by and they sounded about the same after a year.

If you don't get anything out of a degree program, blame yourself, not the program.

I think you guys are misrepresenting the views shared here. The message isn't, education isn't fun and you don't learn anything in school, you should only go to school as a future investment. I don't know how the posts in the thread can be interpreted that way.
It's to the contrary, If you have the means to take a few years off to immerse yourself in music full-time you'll probably have a blast in school. But if you are going to school to study jazz and get in debt in the hopes that it's a career investment in music, you're probably dreaming. There is no contradiction here, those two things can be true at the same time.
It's basically what Bruce Foreman eloquently talks about here, starting around 20:00:
LJS 10: Interview With Bruce Forman - Learn Jazz Standards

[hogrider16]

I think you guys are misrepresenting the views shared here. The message isn't, education isn't fun and you don't learn anything in school, you should only go to school as a future investment. I don't know how the posts in the thread can be interpreted that way.
It's to the contrary, If you have the means to take a few years off to immerse yourself in music full-time you'll probably have a blast in school. But if you are going to school to study jazz and get in debt in the hopes that it's a career investment in music, you're probably dreaming. There is no contradiction here, those two things can be true at the same time.
It's basically what Bruce Foreman eloquently talks about here, starting around 20:00:
LJS 10: Interview With Bruce Forman - Learn Jazz Standards

You're reading too much into what I wrote. I responded to christianmm77's post. I haven't been on jazzguitar.be long enough to form an opinion of what the consensus is regarding a degree in music.

I can say that independent of jazz guitar.be there definitely is a movement in America to dismiss the value of a college degree. An educated electorate is a politicians worst nightmare.

[Tal_175]

I haven't been on jazzguitar.be long enough to form an opinion of what the consensus is regarding a degree in music.

Just a small note, I haven't been on the forum for long either but I'm pretty convinced that this isn't a forum of people who have similar opinions and find consensus on issues That is like zero percent true, give or take. Which is a good thing.

[hogrider16]

Just a small note, I haven't been on the forum for long either but I'm pretty convinced that this isn't a forum of people who have similar opinions and find consensus on issues That is like zero percent true, give or take. Which is a good thing.

Diversity is good, but consensus on some issues is good too. I get so sick of music forums where some asshat is always saying in response to the value of a musical education, "Jimi Hendrix didn't know theory, and he did OK." I just always respond, "You aint no Jimi Hendrix."