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  1. #51

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    I also thought maybe it depends on the player's (his manager's) strategy too... and how he can coordicate his ambition for gigs and the market demand.

    Bobby Broom and his group are very subtle and sophisticated players but at the same time they have quite conventional format.. they can have bigger audience and probably are eager to have it, an dprobably try to look in the places they think appropriate for that.

    I am subscribed on FB to some guitarists' pages (like Frisell, Lage, Lund, Sco etc) and I get notifications.

    For example Bill Frisell tours very intensively... I believe in the scope of the whole world his potential audience is much smaller than that of Broom...

    But at the same time in some college campus - who knows? - it is possible that Bill would attract more people.

    If you look at the venues where he plays it is very often very modest chamber-style places in remote parts of the States - it is really for quiete contemplative audience, not for a cocktail club soft jazz dancing.

    I believe that Bill does not earn huge money with that but still he is on the road all the time in contact with live performance and live audience (which he obviously enjoys)

    What I am trying to say is that probably correct management of your ampitions is also very important, especially in this ever changing world.

    Bobby says that according to billboard and statistics from streamimg there are quite a lot of people who like and listen to this music, maybe the good move for a good manager is to find out who are these people and where they live and go to listen to music.
    I am not sure of course... but maybe it is time also to break a barrier too... maybe people who wants to listen to him just go to different places?
    Maybe today it's the same people who listen to Bill Frisell with Petra Haden?

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I just came to the point that I probably live in a world on my own.. in the past I tried to be curious/tolerant about people and their opinions and so on... now I do not care. If idiots are idionts it is their life. But in modern world everyone has the right to be an idiot, but no-one can tell him about it .. so some people I know seem to begin to think I am almost a fascist... so I have to keep the mouth shut.

    but in general it is what I fell like...
    even if there are only 8-10 people in that world of mine - it is big enough and I do not care what other millions do (unless they start shooting at me or my family)...

    I have a friend - probably greatest living composer now - he is older than me, about 50 now (a family man, quite active socially, not just meditating artistic hermit) - in my opinion he does unique things, he is being performed of course, not totally neglected... but in comparison to what it deserves it is nothing...

    He lives in another city but we communicate all the time... he says that last year he is mostly in two conditions: suddenly and briefly excited (mostly it is about experiencing music - not all, or arts), and the rest of the time almost asleep (physically because he is terribly tired mostly)...

    It seems I amd getting close to this condition gradually too...

    But it's another topic maybe)
    That's sad to hear. I would say if it's one thing I've noticed about the Russian people I have met and worked for it's a deep reverence for Art and music. While I don't pretend to understand the complexities of contemporary Russia (I've never visited even), I do get that impression that has changed.

    Anyway, I feel the UK has always had a bit of philistine attitude to instrumental music, so I'm used to it...

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I also thought maybe it depends on the player's (his manager's) strategy too... and how he can coordicate his ambition for gigs and the market demand.

    Bobby Broom and his group are very subtle and sophisticated players but at the same time they have quite conventional format.. they can have bigger audience and probably are eager to have it, an dprobably try to look in the places they think appropriate for that.

    I am subscribed on FB to some guitarists' pages (like Frisell, Lage, Lund, Sco etc) and I get notifications.

    For example Bill Frisell tours very intensively... I believe in the scope of the whole world his potential audience is much smaller than that of Broom...

    But at the same time in some college campus - who knows? - it is possible that Bill would attract more people.

    If you look at the venues where he plays it is very often very modest chamber-style places in remote parts of the States - it is really for quiete contemplative audience, not for a cocktail club soft jazz dancing.

    I believe that Bill does not earn huge money with that but still he is on the road all the time in contact with live performance and live audience (which he obviously enjoys)

    What I am trying to say is that probably correct management of your ampitions is also very important, especially in this ever changing world.
    It's really best to have no expectations.

    However, when you hear of people you think should be doing well not doing well, it's sobering. Audiences and tastes change, of course, but there's just less money now.

    Cultivating a direct relationship with the audience is the easiest way to cut out the middle men and take control of your career. It does require a widening of one's skill set...

    Bobby says that according to billboard and statistics from streamimg there are quite a lot of people who like and listen to this music, maybe the good move for a good manager is to find out who are these people and where they live and go to listen to music.
    Absolutely

    Good managers are worth their weight in HP ink (had to buy new cartridges the other day)

    A lot of people are stuck in the old model.

    You Tube is huge of course, as well... Only problem with You Tube is you can't reliably monetise it if you are a musician (due to copyright strikes, YT shifting the goalposts and so on). Patreon offers an alternative source of income, but it's not truly passive as you then you owe people a regular stream of content.

    I am not sure of course... but maybe it is time also to break a barrier too... maybe people who wants to listen to him just go to different places?
    Maybe today it's the same people who listen to Bill Frisell with Petra Haden?
    Well I played my dad some recent Frisell and he thought it very middle of the road.

    Which it kind of is. I prefer him as a sideman in some ways. But I think Bill just likes playing songs he likes.

    That said, I'd sign up to hear Bill play the collected ouvre of Ed Sheeran... I'm not sure who goes to his gigs. I do know he's one of the few 'jazz guitarists' I could play to anybody.

  5. #54

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    Well I played my dad some recent Frisell and he thought it very middle of the road.

    Which it kind of is. I prefer him as a sideman in some ways. But I think Bill just likes playing songs he likes.

    That said, I'd sign up to hear Bill play the collected ouvre of Ed Sheeran... I'm not sure who goes to his gigs. I do know he's one of the few 'jazz guitarists' I could play to anybody
    It's very interesting... because I really prefer Bill when he is alone or a leader in a very small set like a duo for example.
    Sometimes I have feeling from him- that he takes a too much pop-stuff and - if it is appropriate to say so - overloads it with meaning in performance and concentration as if it is Bach or Mozart (but it is not even if you play it in the most meditative way ever). It reminds me American realism in painting.. it has the mood and it captures but then I feel like that is it, only the mood.
    But Bill is very authentic and unpretenciosu in doing this of course.
    And in generalI learnt a lot from him in concern of guitar playing.

    But anyway I just gave Bill here as an example... of something very different, opposite to Bobby - potentially not much in demand - but at the same time intensively touring almost non-stop.

  6. #55

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    That's sad to hear. I would say if it's one thing I've noticed about the Russian people I have met and worked for it's a deep reverence for Art and music. While I don't pretend to understand the complexities of contemporary Russia (I've never visited even), I do get that impression that has changed.
    Yes, it changed definitely during last 20 years... besides I grew up and lived in St. Petersburg without going much into the country (and without much wish to go, even to Moscow)... and St.Petersburg is not really Russia frankly speaking.

    But it's not the point even...
    I think today 'urban people' become more or less a special nation in most of the world. People coming and working in big metropolis like London, St.Petersburg, Paris, Moscow, Madrid.. they share more common features with each other than with their countrymen in the countryside.

    When I was a kid I remember a situation in a tram when a lady jumped in a tram and began to talk loudly with her friend.
    And there was a very an old lady sitting who turned and very politely said: 'My dear, could please spek a little bit lower, you are in St.Petersburg'
    It was not pretencious, and it really reflected the special spirit that the city once had.
    I still caught (but also mostly as an exception)... modern young people don't any more.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It's really best to have no expectations.
    However, when you hear of people you think should be doing well not doing well, it's sobering. Audiences and tastes change, of course, but there's just less money now.
    I definitely agree, but, this interview with Bill is really interesting:

    http://www.5049records.com/podcast/bill-frisell

    In the 80s and probably 90s, Bill was barely scraping by, he mentions in this podcast his wife was working day jobs and he was taking any gig he could get, they always lived in NJ instead of NYC because it was cheaper, etc. It's awesome Bill has had such a successful career since, but this kind of life has never been a picnic for anyone.

    I am not saying the current climate is not bad, just pointing out that there are always struggles.

  8. #57

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    Bill is blessed to have the wife who is also his personal manager. I think Sco in the same situation.

    It's hard to underestimate the role of a good partner in musicians life. Where would we be without our gf or wives?

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Bill is blessed to have the wife who is also his personal manager. I think Sco in the same situation.

    It's hard to underestimate the role of a good partner in musicians life. Where would we be without our gf or wives?
    Amen to that.

  10. #59

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    A friend of mine is pursuing a career in conducting. He's got a phd in music and everything. He once told me that his true passion was composition. I asked then why did he went down the conducting path. He said there's no money in composition.
    What a sellout lol.
    Some people desperately need financial advice.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-24-2019 at 02:57 PM.

  11. #60

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    Thanks to this thread I listened more to Bobby Broom (I am afraid though he did not earn much more from that (((( though I use only official payable resources or youtube subscriptions).
    He is such a sophisticated player... such an old school warmth in his playing, such a human conversational phrasing in lines.


    I definitely agree, but, this interview with Bill is really interesting:

    Episode 111, Bill Frisell — 5049 Records

    In the 80s and probably 90s, Bill was barely scraping by, he mentions in this podcast his wife was working day jobs and he was taking any gig he could get, they always lived in NJ instead of NYC because it was cheaper, etc. It's awesome Bill has had such a successful career since, but this kind of life has never been a picnic for anyone.
    I put it on yeterday late at night while doing some home stuff... it is always interesting to hear Bill talk - he has very intimate and inmidiate style of conversation. THough I heard most of the fact before it was really great to listent to it again in such nice 'table talk'.

    By the way.. dose anybody know if it is possible to buy the film "The Portrait' about him in some kind of other form than purchasing a DVD?
    It is really too expensive to order a CD form States here... I have a friend in teh States who come here once or twice a year so he brings me some things like that but I do not know when he comes really.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I put it on yeterday late at night while doing some home stuff... it is always interesting to hear Bill talk - he has very intimate and inmidiate style of conversation. THough I heard most of the fact before it was really great to listent to it again in such nice 'table talk'.

    By the way.. dose anybody know if it is possible to buy the film "The Portrait' about him in some kind of other form than purchasing a DVD?
    It is really too expensive to order a CD form States here... I have a friend in teh States who come here once or twice a year so he brings me some things like that but I do not know when he comes really.
    Digital streaming rental here: Watch Bill Frisell, A Portrait Online | Vimeo On Demand on Vimeo

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  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by David B View Post
    Thank you!
    not available for Russia unfortunately. But I asked Emma in a message, maybe she would advise another option.

  14. #63

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    Great thread!

    People seem to reduce everything down to black & white - oh it's talent OR luck.

    Anyone working in music realises it's BOTH.
    I'd agree - it's both but it's also about networks. I just finished a book called "The Formula" which talks about all of this and how in anything with an element of subjectivity (the book uses modern art but the same applies to jazz musicians), success is partly about your networks e.g. "it's not what you know, it's who you know".

    Bobby mentioned selling out Ronnies, but he probably didn't have the personal connections to get to other venues in the UK or Europe to make that visit worthwhile. And yet there are a decent number of venues and festivals across Europe that I'm sure would be happy to book (and pay!) a player of his calibre. It probably helps to know the organizers though.

  15. #64

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  16. #65

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    He can teach during the day and play in Chicago at night. Not bad at all.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by xavriley View Post
    Great thread!



    I'd agree - it's both but it's also about networks. I just finished a book called "The Formula" which talks about all of this and how in anything with an element of subjectivity (the book uses modern art but the same applies to jazz musicians), success is partly about your networks e.g. "it's not what you know, it's who you know".

    Bobby mentioned selling out Ronnies, but he probably didn't have the personal connections to get to other venues in the UK or Europe to make that visit worthwhile. And yet there are a decent number of venues and festivals across Europe that I'm sure would be happy to book (and pay!) a player of his calibre. It probably helps to know the organizers though.
    This is very much the case...

  18. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    The players all have jazz degrees. Many of them can even play jazz pretty well (although they are not Bobby)
    not sure that's true. I know many with no degree

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by xavriley View Post
    I'd agree - it's both but it's also about networks.
    This is pretty much verbatim what Mike Moreno told me.
    He was already playing at a high level when he left Houston for New York. He didn’t need to go to New School so that someone could teach him how to play. he went there to build networks and it was a great place for him to try out new music, compositions and arrangements he was working on. It would be pretty good to have someone like Kendrick Scott to play with at school everyday.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzism View Post
    This is pretty much verbatim what Mike Moreno told me.
    He was already playing at a high level when he left Houston for New York. He didn’t need to go to New School so that someone could teach him how to play. he went there to build networks and it was a great place for him to try out new music, compositions and arrangements he was working on. It would be pretty good to have someone like Kendrick Scott to play with at school everyday.
    I went to the New School at the same time as Mike and he definitely played great straight out of high school. Of course, he went to HS with Robert Glasper, Alan Hampton, Reggie Quinerly, and a bunch of other really great players.

    Jazz school is primarily about networking, IMO. You go to school, hopefully meet people and play with them and form bonds and such, and you keep playing with those folks throughout your life. It also gives you some time where you aren't just working jobs and scuffling to get by.

  21. #70
    Plus something to fall back on later in life. A lot harder to teach on a college/University level even for a recording artist without a bachelor or Masters nowadays..