The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    A Blog entry from March last year:

    Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: No more free gigs

    The market for jazz (guitar) gigs over here is so small that most actually play for change or for nothing at all. Especially amateurs.

    Return On Investment wise, I could not think of a worse occupation than that of gigging jazz musician. There is simply no significant market for it.

    Still, I refuse to play for free. A dilemma for sure ...

    DB

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  3. #2

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    A dilemma for sure, but I wouldn't pay a cover to see amateurs. If there is a cover, I would expect competent, professional musicians. The quality of venue often determines this as well.

  4. #3

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    I'm in a bit of a different place here; there is basically very little difference to me in playing a gig that pays $50 and a gig that pays nothing. And, I think that if all jazz musicians worldwide stopped deciding to play low paying gigs, the net result would be less jazz music in the world. In my experience, most restaurants and places that have jazz do this out of love for the music, not profit. Most club owners I know that have jazz lose money on it.

    I'm not so sure that our traditional notion of playing live jazz music for money is really a very common "profession" any more; outside of a few superstars, almost everyone supplements their income through teaching these days. I'm not going to name names but I will say that this includes people that headline international jazz festivals.

    I was living in San Francisco for a few years, and moving back to NY, it's pretty shocking to me how the scene has changed even in a couple years. Last night I went to see a very well known tenor sax player play at a great spot in the center of the west village, and there were 5 people at the gig. Couple weeks back I saw an all star quintet in brooklyn, and there were 10 people in the audience. This is not a moneymaking venture for anyone involved.

    In San Francisco, I knew very few people who made a full time living through music, and basically no one that did performing only full time, again, everyone seems to teach.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    The market for jazz (guitar) gigs over here is so small that most actually play for change or for nothing at all. Especially amateurs.
    Amateurs play for the love of what they're doing, for them to demand union wages or whatever is absurd. If amateurs are taking over the market, maybe the pros need to up their game or get a real job (like the amateurs), or teach...welcome to the real world. You either create a demand like the top pros do, or you follow where the demand is, eg other types of music and teaching.

  6. #5

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    I have a day job.

    I've also been in the situation where music has been my sole source of income. It's tough.

    I'll not forget that. So I don't screw people out of paying jobs by undercutting them just because I love to play.

    When you establish that you're worth nothing, you are.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I have a day job.

    I've also been in the situation where music has been my sole source of income. It's tough.

    I'll not forget that. So I don't screw people out of paying jobs by undercutting them just because I love to play.

    When you establish that you're worth nothing, you are.
    So should good amateur painters (that are wall worthy, but not great, say) not sell their work for cheaper than pros?

  8. #7

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    What price above free do you put on a gig, DB? Is $30-$50 enough, or is there a dollar amount that you need? I know lots of guys who won't leave the house for under XX amount.

    Also, does more money = more problems? The $500 weddings can be brutal, but sometimes playing for next to nothing in a club is really enjoyable. How do you square that circle?

    Great post, btw.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Amateurs play for the love of what they're doing, for them to demand union wages or whatever is absurd. If amateurs are taking over the market, maybe the pros need to up their game or get a real job (like the amateurs), or teach...welcome to the real world. You either create a demand like the top pros do, or you follow where the demand is, eg other types of music and teaching.
    Most jazz amateurs around here I would not pay a dime for to watch them play. They should stick to jam sessions. Still, there's a handful of amateurs that really play on a pro level in my area. They all have jobs. Should they play for free? Because they have a job?

    What about the professional party band musician that knows three chords and plays 5 gigs a week. Should he make 300 bucks per night, just because he's a pro?

    What about the amateur DJ that has no musical skills at all - none whatsoever - and still gets the 500 bucks gig every week?

    Heck I did my 10.000 hours. Should I play for free coz I am just an amateur?

    Interesting point.

    DB

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew42
    What price above free do you put on a gig, DB? Is $30-$50 enough, or is there a dollar amount that you need? I know lots of guys who won't leave the house for under XX amount.

    Also, does more money = more problems? The $500 weddings can be brutal, but sometimes playing for next to nothing in a club is really enjoyable. How do you square that circle?

    Great post, btw.
    I do not have the answers I'm afraid. I just really feel that playing for free is an insult to my craft. I'd say an amount covering expenses is the bare minimum for me to leave my house, which is quite comfortable 50 - 100 bucks for a local gig I guess, and that's still pretty much a joke for any pro in any field.

    DB

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    So should good amateur painters (that are wall worthy, but not great, say) not sell their work for cheaper than pros?
    Exactly. There's a gazillion amateur painters selling their stuff for nice to good to big money. We, as musicians, are expected to hand out those paintings for free.

    DB

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    I do not have the answers I'm afraid. I just really feel that playing for free is an insult to my craft. I'd say an amount covering expenses is the bare minimum for me to leave my house, which is quite comfortable 50 - 100 bucks for a local gig I guess, and that's still pretty much a joke for any pro in any field.

    DB
    Totally agree. Guys around here were making $100 in the 1970s.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    I do not have the answers I'm afraid. I just really feel that playing for free is an insult to my craft. I'd say an amount covering expenses is the bare minimum for me to leave my house, which is quite comfortable 50 - 100 bucks for a local gig I guess, and that's still pretty much a joke for any pro in any field.
    Sure, but what's the difference, here? it's not like anyone can make a living these days playing $50-100 gigs.

    I guess my main problem with this line of thinking is that the thought seems to be that some amount > 0 is better than 0, but then it either moves the conversation to "I wish people would not take $20 gigs because it undercuts pros", so, then the conversation is just about a new minimum. So, what's the point?

    Looking at it from a market angle, I just don't think there is a lot of demand for jazz music, there's plenty of supply of good players (a lot of whom make their living doing other things and don't need additional money), jazz gig rates are going to tend towards 0 and/or remain low. All the data I've ever seen or experienced in 25 years of playing jazz gigs supports this hypothesis.

  14. #13

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    It's a subject guaranteed to divide opinion. In the end, it is about supply and demand. If one wants to be paid then one needs to have a product that other people want and can't get cheaper (or free) elsewhere. If no-one wants that product (or are prepared to put up with the cheaper version) then no matter how much time and effort you have put into it, no matter how much gear you have bought, no matter how many years practising or how good you are... then none of it means anything. It's difficult, and heart-breaking, especially when this thing is a life-time passion. I daresay it's the same for ventriloquists. The key must be to find a way to generate the demand for one's own particular product. Not sure how, though.

  15. #14

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    Well, if you're selling paintings, you're not an amateur.
    Pricing yourself based on your worth and draw is not the same as playing for free, or undercutting to basically steal a gig. I'm not worth as much as Pat Metheny. But if I know a place pays $150 for a night of solo guitar, and I go in and offer to do it for $50, that $150 gig eventually becomes a $50 gig. That's simple economics.

    If we think this music has value, then we should act like it.

    RE: Price on a gig. $50 an hour is completely reasonable, and you're getting free travel and set up as far as I'm concerned. I don't leave the house for under $100. I don't leave the house much.

    When I did bigger theater gigs for country "shows," I worked out with the promoter a flat fee + a cut of the take + 1 paid rehearsal (since it was a touring solo act who put together a "band" in each city he went through. Let's just say that paid a lot more than a jazz gig

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    Most jazz amateurs around here I would not pay a dime for to watch them play. They should stick to jam sessions. Still, there's a handful of amateurs that really play on a pro level in my area. They all have jobs. Should they play for free? Because they have a job?

    What about the professional party band musician that knows three chords and plays 5 gigs a week. Should he make 300 bucks per night, just because he's a pro?

    What about the amateur DJ that has no musical skills at all - none whatsoever - and still gets the 5k gig every week?

    Heck I did my 10.000 hours. Should I play for free coz I am just an amateur?

    Interesting point.

    DB
    Yeah, but amateurs don't need to take free gigs, as a painter doesn't need to give paintings away, but if they want to why not (you don't want to give it away, so don't--you don't have to)? If they're amateurs that play at a pro level and can't get a paying gig, then I say take it or leave it-- it's not your lively hood. Keep the music to yourself or share it. If pros can't play better than an amateur to the point where the venue would prefer to pay for the better music, then they're not good enough to be a pro.

    Sure, the party band guy can make bucks because he's in demand. Doesn't matter that he's not talented. DJ's are in demand, that's why they make money.

    To go back to painting, Jazz guitar is like a style of painting that almost no one likes. If they want to make money then they better get a job or make art that sells.

  17. #16

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    No jazz musician should feel obligated to pay more than $50 to play for an audience.


  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, if you're selling paintings, you're not an amateur.
    Then if you're getting paid gigs you're not an amateur

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    No jazz musician should feel obligated to pay more than $50 to play for an audience.

    He's here all week, people, try the fish, and remember to tip your waitress...and the guy playing guitar, we ain't paying him either.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Then if you're getting paid gigs you're not an amateur
    Exactly.

    People don't seem to get this. You don't have to be a full time pro. But if you're getting paid, it's a job, act like it.

    I dunno. I'm cranky. I have no time for amateurs who show up late, drink on the gig, and play like shit. I'd rather stay home and play for the dog.

  21. #20

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    I can see that, so I was a little confused because OP said he's amateur

  22. #21

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    I don't know about other places, but here in NYC tips mean a lot. If your base pay $50, you can hassle enough tips, it's worth it. You can demand more if you draw crowd. But I figured playing in restaurants and bars if you can get $100 it's really good. Some places even $150, and it's superb! The real dough though comes from private gigs, weddings, birthdays, whatever. But guess how you get those? Right, you playing $50 gigs so people can notice you and book for their events.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    The real dough though comes from private gigs, weddings, birthdays, whatever. But guess how you get those? Right, you playing $50 gigs so people can notice you and book for their events.
    Or befriend a wedding planner.

    We had a good friend who was, she'd do these trade shows, I'd give her business cards to put out--got dozens of wedding ceremony/cocktail hour gigs that way. That was back when people would check out a website.

    Sadly, she got married and moved to California...where she does the same thing...makes about 3x the money too...maybe I am in the wrong line of work Still have my tux, though, just in case.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    When you establish that you're worth nothing, you are.
    Unfortunately accepting this philosophy would lead to complete death for many arts. There would be no one to produce literary fiction, poetry, conceptual art etc. I have many artist friends, some do art full time. They rely on government grants or odd job here and there. One of my friends recently published a literary novel through a prestigious publisher. She slaved over the book for 3 years she got like 3 grands. 2 cents an hour. Can we say this is what she is worth? She is working on her second novel
    My GF just published a short story, got 50 dollars. Which was the submission fee. You need to send your story to 50 literary magazines to get published in one. That's if you are really good. All of them charge for submission. Will she ever cover the cost of her prestigious MFA graduate degree NO, but she had blast doing it.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Unfortunately accepting this philosophy would lead to complete death for many arts. There would be no one to produce literary fiction, poetry, conceptual art etc. I have many artist friends, some do art full time. They rely on government grants or odd job here and there. One of my friends recently published a literary novel through a prestigious publisher. She slaved over the book for 3 years she got like 3 grands. 2 cents an hour. Can we say this is what she is worth? She is working on her second novel
    My GF just published a short story, got 50 dollars. Which was the submission fee. You need to send your story to 50 literary magazines to get published in one. That's if you are really good. All of them charge for submission. Will she ever cover the cost of her prestigious MFA graduate degree NO, but she had blast doing it.
    But that's not what I'm saying.

    There's established values on some artistic services, you can find out what they are if you do your research. Creative writers, novelists..they know (or they should know at least) that their chances of becoming JK Rowling are like a kid on the playground's chances of being Manny Machado. And there's no real established worth on creative writing, unfortunately.

    But gigging music is really a service industry job...if you know a place is paying a cat $150 to play some music, that's what that gig is worth. You go less, well, you show you're not worth as much, and you bring down the value of the gig with you.

    There's plenty of places to play that never paid anybody anything--and they're not going to start to. So if a person wants to "just play," there's a great place to start.

  26. #25

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    I'd pay Peter Bernstein to play my party for X dollars, but that doesn't mean I'd pay your average weekend warrior the same amount for the same gig. He would play it for less, then I have to decide if I want to pay more for Peter Bernstein or if I'll settle for this other guy to save money.

    My wife's uncle hires a band from the 80's that have a name and songs on the radio etc every year to play 4th of July. I'm sure he pays a fair amount, but he wouldn't pay a local cover band that price for the same gig