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Busking is cool by me.
Originally Posted by Uncle Vinnie
Summer in Central Park is a beautiful thing. With a right people you can make good $ and get booked for private events.
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04-23-2019 12:32 PM
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There are a few jazz venues in town here. To go there and buy two tickets plus food and beverage I'll spend about $200 in an evening for two people in that venue. At that kind of economics playing jazz is an almost viable business proposition, if even still a bit sketchy. chatting with some of the national caliber musicians that play there after sets indicated to me that these are "destinations" venues for musicians from the east and west coast as they travel through flyover country here because they can get that kind of money. Let's face it, if you're touring with a trio you probably need to be getting a minimum of $1000 a show or more to make it a viable prospect- so it costs maybe 50 or 70 bucks a set to see someone like John Scofield. I paid $80 per ticket for my wife and I to see Bob Weir and the Wolf Brothers, $50 per to see Jorma 'n' Jack, $45 to see Jonathan Kreisberg, etc. Money well spent by the end of the evening but not sustainable as a weekly or frequent thing. Originally Posted by pcsanwald
For musicians to make a living, they have to be able to play steadily enough while earning enough money to make ends meet. Getting one $500 gig a month is not going to achieve that. And quite frankly those gigs are rare around here. Most places where people are playing jazz, however, are places like coffee shops and pizza parlors. They cannot afford to pay musicians a living wage for playing because there's just not enough money coming in. The value proposition for musicians is that their presence will attract an audience whose spending will exceed the additional costs associated with having music (PRO licensing which is not cheap, building a stage, providing a PA and lighting if the venue is such that it needs it, whatever marketing costs might be involved, surrendering floorspace for the stage they could otherwise be occupied by paying customers, etc.).
For probably 1000 years or more being a professional musician is a chancey profession at best and one that is actually not viable for most people who try to achieve it. The relative affluence of some popular musicians in the last 60 or so years is a fluke from a historical perspective.
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I'm going to risk some controversy and point out that historically, (and very generally speaking) being a jazz musician was more an occupation available to poor black men, not middle class white people. Louis Armstrong's roots in New Orleans, for example. The be-boppers of the late 40's, early 50's- Miles' upbringing as the son of a dentist, coming to NYC to study at Julliard, was the exception, not the rule. Read biographies like "Bird Lives" for a glimpse into how it was. That is, it's never been a "good job", even for the greats during a golden age.
I've known a bunch of pro musicians over the last 30-40 years, and most all had a day job of some kind, taught students, did weddings, etc.
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Interesting thread. I should be practicing right now for a a group practice tonight to decide how much more we need to practice for a gig next week... Instead I'm got caught up with this thread! Reminds me of a Gillian Welch song "Everything Is Free".
Everything is free now
That's what they say
And everything I've ever done
I'm gonna give it away
Someone hit the big score
They figured it out
That we're gonna do it anyway
Even if it doesn't pay
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I agree with Jeff's previous post. I will not play any gig for free. Where I live, if your toilet becomes clogged and you have to call a plumber, you'll pay $135.00 per hour for the service. Is he worth more than a highly trained musician? I do mostly solo work and charge a minimum $75.00 per hour. That includes travel time, set up, and take down(guitar,amp, microphone, stands, etc.) and a 15 minute break. So, basically, you're playing for half--$35.00 when everything is considered. If I play a two-hour gig, I charge $135.00 to give them a "break" for the extra time. However, I am not supporting myself by playing since these figures would not support a living lifestyle. When you play for free, you are a slave. And when everyone becomes slaves, the business will completely die and anyone with talent will quickly disappear. Good music . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by Marinero
To average person .. Yes definately!
To the select few, maybe not
Every major city has millions of toilets all of which get clogged occassionally leading to an urgent problem that needs to be resolved quickly. This means plumbers are in demand and thus can charge prime $$$ for their services.
Lack of jazz on the other hand .... ??
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Originally Posted by Marinero
If you believe a highly trained musician in not worth less then a plumber, then I think you should't "give them a break" for an whole hour. Originally Posted by Marinero
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Hi, Tal and Lobomov,
I agree with both of your posts. The secret when trying to get a gig is to get in the door to play for PAY. After that, there is the potential for tips(which can be quite lucrative in up-scale restaurants) or increasing your future pay if the restaurant/bar, etc. sees that he is making more money because you are there. For most venues, it is the potential to increase the bottom line not love of music that induces an owner to hire a musician(s). If that is the case, your prospects will be good for the future. A case in point: the last restaurant gig I played(solo), I contracted for 2 hours at $135.00. At the end of the night, I walked away with $275. between tips and extra paid to me by the restaurant because they had a very big night. However, this is not always the case and should not be expected. . . ergo, the $75.00 per hour rate. Good playing . . . Marinero
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Good thread, and an interesting discussion. Getting paid can be hard for young players like myself, especially as someone who moved -to- a major city without a network. I want to have the ability to say no, but when you're fresh out, you got to take some of those gigs just to get your name out there. When nobody knows my name, there's definitely not a concert-goer willing to pay a dime to see me. I don't personally ever take "exposure" gigs, but I continue to join those name-spreading gigs for people I play for/with (if I believe in it) - knowing that there's not a paying audience for them - but these will be artists with certain aspirations.
I used to play organ in the house band for local jam nights in my hometown, and I'd get paid about a hundred bucks per night if enough people came to jam. That was fun work, even if I couldn't exactly sustain myself on it - I didn't know a damn tune but this was a blues club, so it was always gonna be the same chart in one of four keys - so for me, it was a hundred bucks per night to jam out and giving it my best. I always came out sweating after those gigs, because you can really play your ass off when you've done a chart a million times.
On the other end of the "relatively simple keyboards" gigs, my best-paying gigs have been as a piano player with a singer who placed in the top 5 of a national TV singing contest. For our first gig together, I got 200 bucks for 3 songs. On our second, 400 plus a BBQ buffet dinner for 5 songs. I guess pop singers is where the money's at, no surprise there...
There might be a point to be made about jazz having left the popular scene, but at the same time, Cory Henry, the keyboard virtuoso, sold out huge stages when he came to play here, and in the matter of hours! Henry is, though, not as stuck in the past as I know that I am. Perhaps this too is a crucial part of the issue - a lot of jazz players are playing a type of music which was once progressive but is now academic and historical - essentially roleplaying, sometimes even in costume with tuxes and whatnot. The jazz players I know that -do- get paid enough to at least live and break even, are almost all playing various types of progressive jazz. Those that don't, are big names from a different era.
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" I want to have the ability to say no, but when you're fresh out, you got to take some of those gigs just to get your name out there." Mr. Quick
Hi, Q,
Perhaps other "performers" will agree with me but this has never been a successful tactic. The better alternative, in my opinion, is to put your shoes to the pavement and go out and sell your product(music) to those who ,potentially, are buyers. Whether you are a single or play with a group, identify those buyers who will pay for YOUR services. Sometimes, this requires traveling out of your area or being creative in your choices-- ie; art shows, food festivals, libraries with cultural programs, etc. However, if you want to get your name in the game, attend local jam sessions where you'll meet other musicians who you can network with for gigs--especially if your new to the area. Making music for money is, in most cases, an oxymoron. However, it is still possible to get some gigs without playing for peanuts. I hope this helps. However, making a living, as Bobby Broom sadly related is quite another matter. Good playing, Marinero
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Good shout! I should go to more jams!
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Excellent points. Speaking of "day jobs" didn't Wes have a day job until 1960 when Creed Taylor came calling? I can't imagine Wes' previous contract with Riverside compensated him well. Originally Posted by JGinNJ
Seattle is fortunate to have lots of paid venues for pro musicians. And the community by and large support the jazz community. October is the month for the annual month long jazz festival known as Earshot Jazz Festival. Lots of venues, lots of players.
But the past 10 years even the premier club in town, Dimitriou's Jazz Alley, aka Bluenote NW, has had to diversify its programming to softer jazz offerings on a regular basis. I saw Joey D there some months back. Tula's, often a venue for local and pro musicians, and the Triple Door are other decent jazz venues. I couldn't imagine living some place where I couldn't go out to see live jazz 7 nights a week.
I feel for gigging musicians.
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NYC is doing great too. Everyone is busy and working. Free gigs are for pop or rock scene, where they ask you to bring X number of people and charge cover. Jazz musician don't usually play that kind anyway.
But to really make living more or less comfortable living there is basically 2 ways.
1st is to play plenty of private events, you can get your rent covered just playing few a month. I know a lotta peeps from hot jazz scene doing it, they usually dress super nice and stylish, and it's the key!
2nd is get a name recognition or join someone who does and tour a lot. Touring with a good draw is great and fun.
And well, there is the 3rd way- do both and feel lucky!
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Looks like Tula's is closing...
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Sad as it is: "the worth of a thing is the price it will bring" - the higher the interest in the object or service on offer, the higher its monetary value. Basic economy. Painters (to take you example) may have it easier: they only need one person to like one of their works well enough for it to sell. As a musician, you can hardly expect being book with the guarantee of one person willing to hear you music showing up. Demand rules over quality and, frankly, also over the effort one has put in his craft. And let me be clear on this: I don't agree with it... Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
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Sadly, there's also supply and demand, so this doesn't work both ways: although I'd like to think I play way better than Ed Sheeran, Wembley Stadium probably is not going to book me... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Setting your price high screens out a lot of people who would mess you around otoh- for functions gigs and so on
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Tula's is indeed closing, I was there last Saturday night. End of September, as I understand. They talked about it a bit at the show: the whole block is being gutted to build a high-rise(?), and, like many places, Tula's can't really afford what a new lease in the neighborhood would cost with all the licenses and such. Originally Posted by arielcee
Honestly Seattle feels a bit like SF did 5 years ago, in terms of tech kinda taking over the city. Earshot seems like a great festival/newsletter and Seattle has always had a great jazz education program, but, I'm not so sure I agree that there's lots of places to play. Many places like Vito's have jazz every so often, but there don't seem to be that many places for local musicians to play. Dimitrou's seems to have mostly touring acts.
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Bummer about Tula's. I'd been going there since '93.
High tech Seattle has also effected real estate prices throughout the entire region over a 100 mile radius. One can't buy a home 40 miles north of Seattle for less than $400k and that's a small starter fixer. Today's Seattle sky is filled with cranes. So much for progress.
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2bop,
I think Wes worked in a milk/dairy factory in the morning, welder in the afternoon and regular gig plus an after hrs gig.
Where that left time for sleep is beyond me and maybe contributed to his passing @ 43.
As for restaurant type gigs, it might be possible to get a raise if you're pulling them in if you're a single.
But for a trio or quartet I've only experienced it maybe twice in my life and this was only a small raise after we'd been there many yrs.
There's always going to be some young inexperienced people undercutting the established players, but I'm not lowering my price to compete, I'd rather pass.
I recently walked past a place w/ a sign out front booking jazz, text this number. So I texted and asked what they were paying guys for a trio and the response was $100. I thought fine, we can do that on a weeknight, the response was $100 for the whole trio!
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This comes up at about 7:50...
https://www.brasschats.com/interviews/mark-gould
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Yes, I'm aware. But just let that soak in. Wes gone at 43. John Coltrane gone at 41. Who said life was fair! Originally Posted by wintermoon
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The thing that gets not often brought up in these discussions is that the quality of music required in most establishments that offer live music just doesn't need to be that high. people don't know the difference, to be honest. Reading Mark Stryker's book, "Jazz In Detroit", Tommy Flanagan says something like, audiences in the Detroit jazz clubs could tell if you could really play after one chorus(!). Most audiences at most places just don't care that much, in my experience. Even in NYC, there's plenty of places that have mediocre jazz. people don't care, the restaurant certainly isn't going to pay a premium for better musicians. Most restaurants can barely stay in business as it is. Originally Posted by wintermoon
In my view, the reason that restaurant/cafe gigs pay what they do is that live music is a novelty, that's gonna draw maybe a few people but certainly isn't going to make or break anyone's evening, musically. Yet, on every forum I've ever been on, we discuss these gigs as if they should somehow pay a living wage. They don't, they honestly haven't for as long as I've been playing professionally (~25 years), and yet, here we are
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Ok, enough ranting from me.
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Places that offer free music usually don't feel obligated to provide quality.
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Mark Gould (principal trumpet for the MET opera for 29 years) from that video at 10:40, answering [the music industry]...where do you see the whole thing shaking out, where do you see it landing?" Originally Posted by rabbit
Then asked.. "is there a way out, what could happen to make...?I see it landing that all musicians will becom amatures... Most of the musicians in India are amatures, they have to find another way to make money...
How do you reconcile teaching music?No, look at the music business. You have a DJ, one person, come to Madison Square Garden, and fill Madison Square Garden, for a week, one person. The DJ's, all the EDM, ... that seems to be the future of music. I don't see where there is a possible revenue stream for recording, you use to be able to sell records, with the streaming the corporate interests have won, there's no money in that, ... I don't mean to be negative, I think music itself is very healthy, people are doing more and more music that is really interesting to me, but I don't know that there is any money in it.
I don't... In one way it's perpetuating a fruad on one level, the money part of it, on another level, people love to play instruments...
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What you say isn't simple economics. The fact that we had a blowout sale on Gibson ES-type guitars in Chicago a while back hasn't changed the price of an ES-175 to 2k forever. Sales are everywhere all the time. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
If you start running a mr.beaumont sale offering your services for 50$ then you'll disrupt the market for a while, but eventual once you tire of it or drop dead (whatever comes first). It will go back to what it was.Last edited by Lobomov; 08-15-2019 at 03:38 PM.
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This isn't a sale, it's the new everyday low price..... Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
I focused on your statement, " It will go back to what it was."
I think this is where we might be going wrong. I feel like Jazz music is art, but once it becomes a business, then it follows the rules of all businesses. And success in business ultimately depends on supply and demand, not any perceived intrinsic value of the product.
I did not want to believe this about music, but over the years, I am finally caving in, especially after seeing how much the Jazz around here is subsidized by wealthy donors. Also, many of the business owners were always music lovers and music was a part of their original vision, but they found out the demand for Jazz was such that there can't be too many venues in a given area. So many have come and gone.
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Live music business is different in the sense that some need gigs more than they need money. In fact even those who need the money, there are some gigs they would happily do for free if they love the art. Gigs with musicians that are way above their weight for example.
Last edited by Tal_175; 08-16-2019 at 11:16 AM.
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The amount paid for live music seems entirely arbitrary and to obey no law of economics that I can discern.
If I'm doing function work, I have a standard fee, non-negotiable. But that's basically the market rate. People know what they are getting, and I know how to play those gigs.
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I am the OP and since I decided that I refuse to play for free I have had no more gigs. I'd settle for expenses, but even that is too much asked. So my decision is a virtual retirement from playing live, apart from doing the odd jam sessions maybe. So be it.The amount paid for live music seems entirely arbitrary and to obey no law of economics that I can discern.
In the bigger area where I live, live jazz has basically become an amateur thing with weak or mediocre players gigging for free. The whole local jazz scene is completely uninspiring therefore. Workshop level at best.
DB
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This supports the conclusions in fep's post (see post #126). Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
Hopefully there are some areas left where Jazz musicians can earn a decent income for their skills. I would like to know where these places are...
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The best thing for a name player is to find a position in a conservatory and teach there with some gigs on the side. JVR and MVI do this. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Nobody, not even the top players, can survive on gigs only. So basically all competent jazz players over here are teachers. The professional jazz musician does not exist economically speaking.
DB
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Nevermind
Last edited by Lobomov; 08-16-2019 at 04:47 PM.
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True here in NYC as well. All the top players teach, make videos, do workshops, in addition to doing gigs. This wasn't the case when I moved to NYC in 2000, but is absolutely the case now. A friend of mine is a 1st call, top shelf bassist here, and even he posted something on FB the other day saying if it wasn't for his broadway pit gigs, he wouldn't be able to pay his rent. Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
I do agree with folks that have posted things weren't so easy in the good old days, either. This is undoubtedly true and it's never been easy. But, the economics of being a musician have clearly shifted.
Lot of downsides to this. On the upside, at least we don't have to debate on internet forums about what being a "pro level" musician means, and how it doesn't count if you teach!
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The economics of jazz are also resulting in the shrinking band. Where some quys might really want to present their music as a septet or quintet, even a quartet, for the sake of the music, are finding themselves scratching for a duo gig.....
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True. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
The organ trio resurgence has something to do w that, you can get the chords and bass line from it and essentially have a "quartet " w 3 instruments.
That said I prefer organ bands regardless of financial considerations, but I know a bunch of piano players that aren't happy about it, so..
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Isn‘t it funny that jazz historians explain the rise of the quintet in the forties/fifties by the fact that big bands were too expensive? Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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It never ends.
I just received this yesterday. The name is x'ed out to protect the guilty.
"I got put in charge of the entertainment for the xxxxx Festival this year but info has not changed hands very smoothly and it is all very late coming together. So consider this a fledgling, rather than a solid, request, query:
Would the swing band you play with possibly be interested & willing to play? It's Sunday September 8, 10:30-5 and the group would play one 45 minute set, get free food tickets but not get paid. (Oh, I REALLY love asking musicians to play for free! Yup.) We usually get very good publicity before & after, if that matters."
I replied that I could not ask the other 15 band members to play for free.
I am getting too old and cranky for this.
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The guys over at the polka forum complain about the same thing.
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October fest gigs always pay very good, so I doubt it! Originally Posted by mittens
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Tubas have more fun. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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My philosophy is that if a venue asks me to be somewhere for a certain amount of time and expects me to start on time, dress and act professionally, then they are expecting to hire a professional and should pay that professional for their services. The value of those services may vary from place to place and that's where the musican needs to decide what their services are worth and what the venue/market will pay. I do a lot of solo gigs for 2 hours because their budgets will only cover that type of service. If they want more time or musicians, the cost will increase accordingly.
It's funny to me that that same venue asking for a free musician probably would not be happy if you showed up late or cancelled for another paid gig. They're paying their staff with those same expectation, so musicians should be paid as well.
(BTW, I'm speaking from the perspective of a working musician hired for background music at a bar, restaurant, private party or event. Bands that are trying to get their name and music out or even trying to get yourself established in a large city like NYC are totally different animals. In those cases, I feel you may have to make certain trade offs in the short term to hopefully reap the rewards in the long term. It's no different than starting a new business. There's going to be a certain amount of time where business development/networking/marketing needs to be done for little to no money before you start getting steady revenue or shut down..)
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My first pro gig was in a top 40 band-Two female leads, horns, and 100 tunes. The leader charted every part, so you had to read. He expected everyone to play the parts as written. We did five sets a night, six nights a week, for 250.00 a man. That was in 1979. I've done thousands of gigs since in many styles. Outside of playing in a big band, or playing for a flamenco dance company, that top 40 gig was a tough as any. I still play almost everyday, still learning, but I'm pretty much done doing gigs. The reality is there is no money in it, and never has been, except for the incredibly talented and/or lucky. I don't fall into either camp.
Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
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I need to get paid. Just like the landlord. No more free lunch. If someone wants me for a door gig, sorry, pay me. I play jam sessions b/c I'm still relatively new in town (Philly) and it's led to a FEW paying gigs.
I'm 65, know thousands of tunes, can write, solo, play solo guitar, accompany a singer, etc.
Damn right---pay me.
I have a steady starting Wed. in town and a POSSIBLE steady next week. My attitude remains: Pay me or get a 'kid who'll play in a burning house' with 1/20 of my skills (as we all know, owners and leaders do all the time).
No one put a gun to any of our heads and said 'be a professional musician or die right now'. We CHOSE this profession b/c we love it. That DOES NOT mean we have to take anyone's bullshit...
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Hi, SS,
Great post! However, I disagree with your last paragraph in re: not playing unless you are "competent" to do so. I played my first paid professional gig at 12 and had more b-lls than talent. It was in the early 60's when there were many opportunities for performance and it enabled me to develop the skills(over the years) to grow musically and professionally. I didn't take any jobs from the pros because they played in venues that were not musically accessible to me and my small group based on skill levels and audience. And, we didn't get paid what the pros were paid. But, we performed and developed the skills that only gigging can provide for a musician. However, I have NEVER played for free and will NEVER play for free since it hurts everyone who is serious about music. And, when you DO NOT play for free, potential venues can decide for what level of musicianship they are willing to pay--amateurs or pros and, if they don't want to pay--they wont have live music. The "musicians" who want to play for "exposure" are just buying into the trite and fantasy-filled mentality that it will promote their careers but in reality, never helps serious musicians--irrespective of their skill level and ,in reality, never helps the majority of these dreamers despite their desire to play on the stage. The plumber that unplugs your clogged toilet gets $130. an hour, or more, in urban areas . . . and you want to play for free???? I wonder who has the most talent? Good playing . . . Marinero
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To be fair, plumbers and musicians jobs are very different in importance. Going out to hear music is optional, having a functional toilet not so optional. People don't like paying for garbage collection, but without it life in the city becomes unbearable. Life without live music, while not pleasant, can still be bearable. So comparing apples and tangerines is not a valid argument. I agree that musicians should be paid, but they're musicians by choice, and have to realize that they aren't going to be paid at the same level as many other vocations. There is a very wide range of compensation for different kinds of work, and not all of it is fair, but playing music will always be on the lower end of the scale, for most.
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
Yeah, people often ignore the demand side when wanting to get paid for music. They say stuff like I've been honing my craft forever and you're paying me for all those years of practice.
Thing is, if no one is interested then you're not getting paid no matter how much you practice. Your Banjo/Accordion duo is just not going to take off
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Hi, SG, Originally Posted by sgosnell
I think you're taking this literally (which works for me) but, in a figurative sense and for better clarity,--I'm comparing the skill level needed to become a proficient musician and those required to be a plumber and, of course, fair compensation for both. I realize the world is not fair but part of the problem with musicians pay is THE ATTITUDE OF MUSICIANS. They sell themselves short at a drop of a hat because they want to play so badly. And, when we set the standard with a three-chord guitarist playing Jimmy Buffet songs in a tee shirt and blue jeans for $10.00 an hour you begin to see the problem. I have never met a pro in my generation(Baby Boomer) that plays for free or for less than music union wages. And, this is why most pros teach so they have an income and do not have to sell their skills at fire-sale prices. And then, of course, we see the three-chord guitarists that make millions a year--but that's another discussion. Thanks for your reply . . . Good playing . . . Marinero
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As Cyrano would say: I thank you---and again I thank you... Originally Posted by Marinero
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