The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Now, if I feel strongly about something, I usually remind myself not to speak. When I do speak, I might say something like "we're not locked". Or, "could you humor me and try this once without X". Or, "lets try this starting with bass and drums and add one instrument at a time".
    This (the "let's try this...") approach is as close to success as I've known... it feels more like "fixing a song" than "fixing a musician". Sometimes after improving a few songs it quietly sneaks in and the musician improves.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    This (the "let's try this...") approach is as close to success as I've known... it feels more like "fixing a song" than "fixing a musician". Sometimes after improving a few songs it quietly sneaks in and the musician improves.
    Exactly, Paul. When we focus on the song, we don't take critiques personally, because the roughest are usually our own critiques of our own playing. Personalizing critique is what brings dissension into the mix ... and discord doesn't work well with music.

  4. #28

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    The leader of my big band is not at all reticent about telling any or all of us that we are: not playing well, off pitch, not together, speeding up/down, too loud/soft, too bright/dark, too busy/sparse or any other defect he hears. He is usually, but not always, right and we usually, but not always, sound better after he tells us. Sometimes someone discusses it further with him. No one takes umbrage--our first drummer used to and he was replaced after not very long because of this.

    Over the years when I've lead small groups, I would feel free to ask the members to play the way I wanted them to. Usually I did that about specific parts in songs and/or arrangements--if I had to tell them how to play, I'd look for other players. However, leading a small group is far different from leading a big band, which is why I don't do the latter.

    Danny W.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    P

    That out of pitch singer will definitely hear it.
    Hahahaha oh man, i wish that was true, i really do!

  6. #30

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    A a leader, I give each new player general guidelines. The better the player, the more they appreciate a "philosophy", such as keeping a slight edge on the rhythm for drummers and bassists, giving a pianist guidelines for range when the guitar is important, and asking the soloists to try to stay somewhat close to the style of the tune. Again, the better the players, the more cooperation I tend to see. Watching Jim Hall give instructions during a tune was a great lesson: "Pedal on A", "fugue", "free", etc.

    The leadership role can be difficult, but a strong leader who's a good musician can really make a big difference. I found that being the oldest of 9 kids was great training for running a band.

  7. #31

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    I play with a big band, too. It's mostly a rehearsal, amateur thing with occasional gigs. Players range from high school to near-retirees. Nobody takes it too seriously, but we do work on charts. If the time is off the leader will flag it, or if a section has a rough patch we'll go over it. We'll go around to each section, ask how that went, and people speak up on what they hear or struggle with.

    I play trumpet probably 3/4s of the time, but we're lacking in rhythm section right now, so I play guitar when the other guy can't make it.
    Playing solo guitar a lot, my time can get lazy, but when I have to drive sax and trombone sections along with a vocalist, I really have to lock in four-to-the-bar. Last week I brought a Tele instead of an archtop, and the leader asked me to cut back the reverb and dark tone to get a clearer, more percussive sound- a very fair comment, and I twisted a couple of knobs.

    So it's not the same thing as a small group or jam session where it might be awkward or less structured musically- the discipline needed for a larger group to play charts requires you check your ego and play your part right.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    ...the better the players, the more cooperation I tend to see.
    That is very true. Which is one reason why many beginners just don't get better or never learn to do the things they should learn to do. Pianists who comp incessantly on 1 and 3, I'm looking at you...

  9. #33

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    If I'm in a band with that many guys with that many issues it might be time for a new band.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by dallasblues
    If I'm in a band with that many guys with that many issues it might be time for a new band.
    One of the reasons I was content to finish my performing career as a free-lance fill-in/sub was the realization that all bands have these issues to one degree or another. As a baked-in temp, I didn't have to worry much about the office politics. I found it liberating.

  11. #35

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    For the most part I don’t. Other than to tell someone how much I love their playing, I never criticize someone’s playing, ever. Not online, not in person, not behind their backs. One time, with a bassist, who always skips, instead of walks, I asked him to do more walking than skipping. I don’t know how that went over. I don’t think I’ve talked to him since.

    Great players play. In the studio or at a rehearsal playing in my own band or my own music, I instruct how I want a certain piece played, but I won’t criticize their playing in general. I rely on their expertise, otherwise I wouldn’t hire them.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #36

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    ^^^
    I've got a visual image in my head of Charles Mingus "skipping" down the sidewalk. My wife wants to know what the hell I'm laughing at.

  13. #37

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    If they're good, I laude them.

    If they're not good, they're still better than I so I hold my piece.

  14. #38

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    My personal rules:

    Unless in a case of emergency...

    - Never ever criticize on the band stand/on stage/in pit.
    - Never on the same day. (Least of all at the hotel bar under some influence)

    In rehearsals: Don't criticize, suggest better/preferred way of doing/playing...

    Praise, compliment often, say it, not just hint it. People change for getting more of that.

    Don't be Miles, you aren't.


    just my 2c.

  15. #39

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    Agree with much of what has been said but at the same time, you have to be honest and vocal about things (while remaining tactful). If you're soloing and someone is comping with every challenging rhythmic figure and chord sub they know, you need to let them know to lighten up if you want more space for yourself. I played with a sax player who would on rare occasions play sweet little melodic guide tone lines, really filled in the harmony (when there was none) so I told him "sounds great when you do that, please do it more often". I think a lot of bass players don't really like it when they get no comp at all with their solo, nothing wrong with saying "hey, gimme a little support".

  16. #40

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    With my main jam partner (a bassist), if I’d like him to change something about his comping I might ask him to “try this.” If it works for me, I’ll let him know I like it. More often than not, he’ll do something a little different with it to make it even better.
    The “try this” approach seems easier on the ego that “I don’t like that.” It also helps to frequently let your partner know how much you enjoy their playing. If you don’t, maybe they’re not the best partner.

  17. #41

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    It's a tricky matter and everyone is different. On the one hand, you don't want to hurt someone's feelings or damage relationships. On the other hand, if someone is not happy with your playing or your approach - or vice versa if you feel that way about someone else - then eventually you'll probably stop playing together.

  18. #42

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    I don't feel it's my place to critique another's playing - they can play or they can't. If you don't like it, don't play with them anymore. I don't work with people to educate them - not my job.

  19. #43

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    As a general rule, there's not a strong tradition of verbal feedback in the jazz community, outside of educational settings. I've very rarely seen professional players give each other any kind of feedback, other than not calling each other for gigs anymore.

    As someone who's spent my life learning this music, this used to really frustrate me, but now I understand it a little better. I could have learned a lot early on from some honest feedback on the bandstand in terms of what I had together, and what I didn't. I've always welcomed criticism and felt it was helpful, but, I've also come to realize that many people don't take criticism well, particularly as they get older, and particularly if the criticism is fundamental.

    my experience has been that when you do have it together, people will call you for gigs, and when you don't, they won't. In my experience, getting called back for a gig is probably the most consistent feedback mechanism we have.

  20. #44

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    A guitarist friend of mine told me he played with a sax player, who always called girl from Ipenema, but always played it wrong. My friend would tell him "that would be a good song to learn".
    Last edited by plasticpigeon; 06-24-2018 at 04:06 PM.

  21. #45

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    I think it's important and valuable to give younger or less-experienced players feedback, after all, how does one improve except by working with and listening to the more experienced and expert players? Of course, that input should probably be limited to times when you're the leader, or if someone asked for input. And if you are the leader, and have a style you've developed, it's very important to let the sidemen you hired know what you're looking for, but that's better done during the hiring phase than during the gig.

  22. #46

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    A piano player friend of mine was just telling me the other day that he was listening to a fellow pianist at a gig go crazy on the piano playing as fast as he could, 16th notes, 32nd notes that seemed to have no relation to the tune.
    He told him, "Bob, when you play a solo, you're supposed to play some notes that are in the chords you're improvising on. You sound like you're just playing all wrong notes."

    The guy just said something like, "Oh, yeah".

  23. #47

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    yea... good subject... never on stage as many have posted... If I'm at gig and the leader or player who's gig is it... does something stupid on stage... I take notice.... if it happens again, I'm always already booked.

    But a pretty simple approach is to have brief discussion about the tune up front... form, head arrangement and style... any interludes or arrangement details.

    When I call tunes or It's my gig... I usually have books, or verbal details how I would like to play the tune.... and always say.... I'm open for more etc... generally the days of 6 night gigs and even weekends without contracts, or agents aren't that common... unless you'll cover the shit later... Bars and lobbies etc... There are still lots of regular gigs where there is a core of musicians who cover etc... Those tend to be pretty open for arrangements etc... and like I said above... If there is a good audience that keeps coming.... they usually are coming for a reason(s).... need to be able to read the audience and keep them wanting more(come back)... Some musicians just think of their playing... others (like me)... want to make other players play their best etc... I know it's BSish... But it keeps music enjoyable ...

  24. #48

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    Variety is the spice of life...

  25. #49

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    I play at a casual coffee house type gig with a sax player who more often that I’d like comes in with the melody at the wrong time in the wrong place,like a beat or two even a bar or two, after his solo and so far the band has been rescuing him without him knowing it.
    Most everyone is reading charts, I’m the only one playing entirely from memory and yes I make mistakes, and while I may only very occasionally screw up during my solo like stop playing after the first half of a tune like Weaver of Dreams or some tune where the second half is a lot like the first,this doesn’t necessarily make the band look bad, just me.
    I think at rehearsal I should be able to ask any of them them to please toss me a bone and say something like, “second half”, or “keep going”. But when you have your nose in a chart sometimes you often can’t be bothered with your bandmate’s problem I suppose and that’s also unfortunate.
    Rhythm sections can be ruthless or ungiving and other players can be oblivious.
    In the case of the sax player should the rhythm section stick to their guns, stay on form, until the sax player
    ( and melody player)realizes he’s off, or should we continue to cover for him (at the expense sounding wrong) by lerching ahead to catch up with him?
    I don’t know if mentioning this to him off the stand will just offend or help him better look at the problem either.
    I would like to know what the consensus is on proper dealing with these issues .....ask for a little support if I falter?
    And, cover for the out of place sax or keep going on in the right place ( knowing we all sound not so good either way).
    Maybe the answer is don’t play in public with this act but this is small town stuff not the Grammys.
    Should we just suck it up for morale or, say hey, can you like, play better? Jusy kidding ....... maybe.
    Whatever helps us improve really is the goal here.

  26. #50

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    If I'm ignorantly playing a song/songs wrong regularly, I pray a bandmate would let me know!