The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Not specifically, but for example:

    - pianists that are used to playing by themselves and so tend to distance their hands on the keyboard and cover too much space (or too little)

    - bassists who play too "rooty", or are not active or confident enough, or don't know when to "walk"

    - sax, other guitarist, etc. that don't get tritone subs or other things

    - drummers that don't get the importance of their role, don't know they are supposed to know the song form

    ... general things that are well inside their immediate potential, but they don't quite do it yet (the kind of things that visibility would remedy).

    How do you approach these kind of things? Any examples of success?

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  3. #2

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    Usually I don't! People generally don't do something either because they can't, or because they don't want to. Both of these ain't gonna change because someone else is saying something, it is just going to create tensions and a defensive attitude. It is much easier to discuss creative choices than artistic shortcomings. If on a sideman gig just do the best you can, if on a leader one pick the players carefully. For a group of people to play successfully together, you have to create a good vibe, and try to find the strengths of the particular ensemble.

    Not many players can handle an honest criticism of their playing, and usually it is the better ones that can

  4. #3

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    Play with people better than you, so they can tell you what you're doing wrong. I really don't like to play with folks that know even less than me....

  5. #4

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    Yeah I don’t tend to give people feedback unless they specifically ask.

    Reason is - if people seek out feedback they are likely to value it.

    The golden rule for me is to give feedback on how someone plays the way I would like to receive it - specific, not overwhelming, not judgemental and with a way of working on it.

    So not ‘you need to work on your time’ but ‘you could work a little more on the placement of your upbeats, here are some exercises...’

    The thing is different players will hear different things in someone else’s playing and it’s often related to what they themselves work on and are concerned about. There’s no truly objective advice.

    In terms of being given feedback.... beyond lessons and so on, I get things suggested to me at rehearsals for instance, and suggest things.... that feedback is always specific and helpful.

    Feedback on the band stand should usually be something you can action right away, more like band direction - ‘would you mind playing 4 in a bar?’ ‘Turn the guitar up’ Etc

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Feedback on the band stand should usually be something you can action right away, more like band direction - ‘would you mind playing 4 in a bar?’ ‘Turn the guitar up’ Etc
    Miles to Monk:- "Stroll."

  7. #6

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    People who can’t deal with stuff like that should consider staying in their basement like me

  8. #7

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    Tell them to transcribe. Then suggest they go shopping for better equipment.
    That's what I hear works for a lot of people anyway.

    David

    PS Seriously though? Time, friendly nurturing and knowing people who have a similar aesthetic as you. The cats are cool... but don't expect a miracle if you're bringing one into an equestrian competition.
    Last edited by TH; 04-23-2018 at 10:32 AM.

  9. #8

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    Inreminded me an old anecdote about Shostakovich.

    He was known as extremly polite and shy person who followed strictly formal social conventions except very close friends, but at the same time - as many people of that kind - he was a bit nervous person (though not in agressive form) -actulaly one can see it in the fillming of rehearsals or interview.

    It was a rehearsal of his quartet - and the performers were very famous, who played his music many times.

    one of them approached Shostakovich:

    - Excuse me, Dmitry Dmitrievich (highly respectful form of address in Russian), may I ask you one question?
    - Of course, of course any question...
    - It concerns that place in this movement, I have an idea. Could yo be so kind to listen to it?
    - It's great, I always like when the performers offer their ideas
    - Ok, it says 'forte' here.. but to me it seems it would be better to make it 'piano'
    - It's very interesting... very interesting
    - Piano... like this (playing).. what do you think, Dmitry Dmitrievich?

    - (very politely with no irony) Thank you very much, I think it's a wonderful idea, very very interesting, beautiful idea...
    but (raising his voice almost to shout) I wrote 'forte' - so play forte!
    Last edited by Jonah; 04-24-2018 at 06:07 AM.

  10. #9

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    In professional communities usually do not say things openly... mostly because they want to have good realtionships with everybody and be invited to play to earn money. But they discuss a lot behind the back though...

    I know some situations wehre musicains begin to speak:

    - when they suddenly are in the eviroment where they feel like masters (I recently played with a cellist - first I saw him in group with another well-know leader, and latter he was a leader of amateurish group - it a terrible contrast! and it was actully absolutely fruitless becasue all was about ambition only)

    - when they are independent and have their own groups to play where they feel comfortable and do not need to make friends with everybody

    - amateurs (like me) who have enough BS on daytime job and they do not want more BS in their musical activities...

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Inreminded me an old anecdote about Shostakovich.

    - (very politely with no irony) Thank you very much, I think it's a wonderful idea, very very interesting, beautiful idea...
    but (raising his voice almost to shout) I wrote 'forte' - so play forte!
    To which he might have responded "And all these years I've been studying to play Piano!" (Dynamics jokes... sorry. Couldn't help it)

    David

  12. #11

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    Thank tou for sharing that story, Jonah! He is my favorite composer. I always appreciate your knowledgable posts

  13. #12

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    For me, it really depends on the person and the situation. For one thing, I don't really feel that I'm accomplished enough to be giving anyone advice. For another thing, giving someone advice in a "live" situation can often throw them off. What I mean by that is if I told someone something at a jam session, they might try to do it right away, and make their playing even worse. Usually at sessions and casual things, I don't say anything.

    With my own ensemble, it's a little different. I've been having an ongoing negotiation with the pianist about comping. He's agreed in principle that we'll alternate soloists, but he has the hardest time keeping his hands off the keyboard. In that situation, I'll be a little more blunt than I might otherwise.

  14. #13
    Wow. Music is very personal anyway , but musicians tend toward more sensitivity generally in my experience. Communication can be difficult, especially if your communication style is different.

    I've worked with kids for years and still play on weekly basis IN groups with pretty young players, high school to college in a band setting. Honestly, you can make major improvements with a couple of simple comments, but they have to be made the right way. Easier if you're the adult, but the same principles apply with the adults I work with as well. The communication aspect really is about 99% of it.

    1. Direct your comments toward CONCRETE, actionable strategies or techniques.

    "You're overplaying " or " Could you just not play so much?" Probably aren't going to go as far as talking about space and how to shape phrases and sections with space etc, or about "saving some for the important section". One comment is corrected at an indirect third-party concept, and the other is far more personally about the PLAYER. May seem subtle but it makes huge difference.

    2. Sell them adding POSITIVE aspects, rather than working so much on removing negative aspects.

    Recordings or personal playing examples go a long way toward this. As far as playing an example yourself, it can go a long way toward defusing the tension in the first place , because you can begin conversation with "I mean, I'm not a drummer, but on guitar, SPACE at the end of the section looks like this". Showing someone something cool from a recording or from an example isn't really something to get defensive about. Again, you're ADDING something, not just removing something from "their style" or whatever.

    3. Know what the actual problem is.

    This one is difficult and requires some experience maybe, but most of the time the problem is not the problem. It's simply caused by something else which is the real problem. "Careful, those eighth notes want to rush" or "Smaller is faster " took some time to come too, but they both save tons of time and avoid defensiveness in rehearsal.

    Again, I can give a quick example of how I can pick faster on the guitar by keeping the motion small for a drummer who is playing too big on sixteenths and dragging the tempo down. (You can also use the reverse in sections where it's rushing. A mechanical fix is faster and emotionally easier to suggest than working on general "time discipline".)

    Most "musical" problems have a root in something technical.

    4. Choose your battles.

    Don't use up your "budget" of improvement goals on something less important. Most people can only emotionally deal with about one flaw at a time without getting but hurt, probably not even one. Human nature. The Problem, honestly, can't be JUST EVERYTHING.

    What's the one thing that could make everything better?

    Anyway, my experience is mostly non-jazz settings, so sorry if it's out of place. Personally, I think these are more universal communication issues . This is from band stand experience with players of all ages, but mostly other styles. I'll delete it or whatever it's inappropriate.

  15. #14

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    At a jam among strangers, I wouldn't say anything. Among people I know, in rehearsals or similar contexts, I try to express it in terms of "we" rather than "you" --e.g., "we don't seem to be locked rhythmically; here's the tempo (tap tap tap tap) ; let's all try to be on it" rather than "you're rushing." Or "let's figure out some voicings or comping ideas that work better together because I think we might be stepping on each other a bit." You have to be open to the possibility that it's not them, it's you, and you have to read the personalities of people you're with. Some take constructive criticism better than others, and you have to adjust your approach accordingly, as is the case in all endeavors.

    John

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Play with people better than you, so they can tell you what you're doing wrong. I really don't like to play with folks that know even less than me....
    So you want to play with people that are better than you so you can learn from them but don't appear willing to reciprocate.

    Ok, I admit I also prefer to play with those better then myself but it order to avoid cosmic gumbo, I willingly play with those that need help hoping that this creates good karma that will someday be returned.

  17. #16

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    Different situations play out differently. If you are joining a band, and you are part of that band for a long term, Im sure the leader or older member will address any points that needed to ne addressed. How? Depends on personalities and dynamics.

    OTOH, if you are freelancing, on call jazz musician, or if you are the leader booking someone for a one off gig.. People usually dont criticize or giving suggestions. If they like what they hear, they call you again, if not, they move on to someone else. I know, its brutal out there ans unfair. I try not to be that guy!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Thank tou for sharing that story, Jonah! He is my favorite composer. I always appreciate your knowledgable posts
    I like Shostakovich too. My favourite story is the one where he was summoned for questioning by the police, then after a time sent back home for the weekend with orders to return on Monday. As this usually meant a “one-way trip” was coming, he spent a terrified weekend with a suitcase packed in readiness.

    When he went back on Monday, nobody knew why he was there, and it turned out that his interrogator of the previous week had himself been taken away for “questioning”. So they told him to go home and forget about it.

  19. #18

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    I have learned, painfully, that I'm not very good at telling others what to do, or not do.

    When I have tried, in the distant past, I was likely to piss somebody off with no improvement in the music.

    It may be that I knew less than I thought. Or didn't communicate well. Or something.

    Now, if I feel strongly about something, I usually remind myself not to speak. When I do speak, I might say something like "we're not locked". Or, "could you humor me and try this once without X". Or, "lets try this starting with bass and drums and add one instrument at a time".

    There are people who are better at doing this.

  20. #19

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    I don't really like making suggestions, even as a band-leader, unless it's an original number or if another musician isn't hitting a crucial part. Outside those instances, I much prefer to simply say, "Man, I loved that part you played here, that sounded great." I guess for me it's a matter of focusing on the good rather than the slop.

    Of course, rehearsing for a gig is a different story, especially playing rock covers.

    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    So you want to play with people that are better than you so you can learn from them but don't appear willing to reciprocate.

    Ok, I admit I also prefer to play with those better then myself but it order to avoid cosmic gumbo, I willingly play with those that need help hoping that this creates good karma that will someday be returned.
    I used to host a monthly jam session in my backyard in SoCal, acoustic-only, I'll do the barbecue, bring your old lady, kids, and favorite beer. Had from three to five local guys who'd show up. I'd been playing 30 years at the time, my neighbor about 18, and the other ranged down from ten years to a guy named Rob with six months. There were only two rules, really: Everyone gets a turn, and don't be a dick.

    Even at thirty years on the neck, I found myself learning a lot, even from Rob, who was more a singer/songwriter than accomplished at lead (obviously). If nothing else, I learnt to play slide competently, because that's how I was able to sit in the mix well. The karma was pretty much instant for me, once I figured I should open my ears, y'know?

  21. #20

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    Sometimes you need to be tough for the sake of the music.


  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Thank tou for sharing that story, Jonah! He is my favorite composer. I always appreciate your knowledgable posts
    Thanks.

    I actually have a few books about him... when I was about 20 I was really in his music (and from experience there's always a chance to come back to it).
    Besides I am Russian who grew up St.Petersburg - so if you have the least interest in classical music here you just cannot pass by Shistakovich, he is everywhere that is music related.
    It's interesting that his influence at the beginning was very moving and put local compositional school at the front line of music... and later after his death it absolutely ruined compositional education here)))
    Partly because he was idolized and his students took over the leading position in education here, partly because he was very academic in concern of musical form. His innovations were in other areas but his forms and orchestrations are actually absolutely in Beethoveen's vein.

    Sometimes it is even impossible to read local books about him becasue he is often idolized to unbearbale extent. He became (or rather was used) as an offcial figuer even during his life.

    Besides there are lots of things in his music that - it seems - have special meaning for Russians... he understood music as very meaningful language (as I do actually) and he put a lot of things in it that sometimes have literal meanings.
    I noticed that foreigners take his music often more abstractly where I feel it as very painful.. I feel like he has heavy burden on his shoulders all the time.

    It is also interesting that being very reserved person he had very good sense humour, like company (and even a good drink in a good company) and he was a big fan of football.


    I have a friend who actually wrote a big book about many other Soviet symphonic composer who satyed almost unknown (and still are unknown now) and some of them are actully very gifted. While he was writing he worked in the archives and sent me the records of score taht he found the most interesing (he himself is the most gifted composer of our time I believe - from those that I heard at least).
    Recently they began to perform Alexander Lokshin who was fantastic composer but was both ignored by officials and underground due to some doubtful story. His son has been trying to bring his music back to audience.

    I do not want to derail this thread... but if you are interested you could make another thread - where i can share some other thngs about Shostakovich, his music, history around it and other music from the period in Russia.

  23. #22

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    How about PULEEEZZ, TURN DOWN!!

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah

    I do not want to derail this thread... but if you are interested you could make another thread - where i can share some other thngs about Shostakovich, his music, history around it and other music from the period in Russia.
    Made one in “other styles.” Can’t wait to learn more

  25. #24

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    Playing music can be so personal. It is hard to take criticism for anything that is not easy to change or change quickly. Such as, "your time isn't solid you need to work with a metronome", or even worse to a singer, "your pitch is off, you're often flat".

    The musician probably already knows that they have these problems.

    I think a better approach would be to record a rehearsal or performance and share it with the band-mates. That out of pitch singer will definitely hear it.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Playing music can be so personal. It is hard to take criticism for anything that is not easy to change or change quickly. Such as, "your time isn't solid you need to work with a metronome", or even worse to a singer, "your pitch is off, you're often flat".

    The musician probably already knows that they have these problems.

    I think a better approach would be to record a rehearsal or performance and share it with the band-mates. That out of pitch singer will definitely hear it.
    Tape is the toughest taskmaster.