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  1. #1

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    Nutshell question: What do you pay a player who sits in (edit: freelances) for a gig? I'd like to come up with a reasonable flat rate for this scenario. (This is Midwest USA btw)

    My situation:

    For 4 years now, our gypsy jazz group has been a quintet. Payout was basically split evenly.

    Come February, our second rhythm guitar player is moving to a different city in MN. We agree that he can and should play gigs with us if he is in town, or we are touring in his area. But, to me, as the booking manager, that relegates him to a sit-in (edit: freelancer) player position because he won't be attending weekly rehearsals, won't be investing cash into merch, etc. Less skin in the game = less payout.

    I also have soloists and singers in mind who will be gigging with us for fun, and for weddings and other parties that require a bigger band sound.

    We're at the point right now where the core members have put in a lot of work to establish ourselves, and don't think it's fair to us to evenly split payouts to non-core members.

    I was recently offered $80 as a sit-in (edit: freelance), and think that sounds reasonable enough.

    I'm sure you get the idea. Thanks in advance for your input!

    Ian
    Last edited by ian_rhythm; 10-02-2017 at 03:38 PM.

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  3. #2

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    'Sit-In' here means if you playing a gig, and someone who are not on the gig asks to play a couple of tunes with you. Usually they don't get pay at all. If you call someone to play, and there are just hired as freelancers, you can pay anything, you are the boss, you set the rules. Tricky if it's a former member, I understand, but maybe exclude CD(if he/she is not on it) and merch sales from the pay?

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    'Sit-In' here means if you playing a gig, and someone who are not on the gig asks to play a couple of tunes with you. Usually they don't get pay at all. If you call someone to play, and there are just hired as freelancers, you can pay anything, you are the boss, you set the rules. Tricky if it's a former member, I understand, but maybe exclude CD(if he/she is not on it) and merch sales from the pay?
    Thanks for the clarification on sit-ins, that makes sense. It's good to distinguish between sit-in vs freelance. I am more talking about freelance players who I can "hire" to play with us.

    I know I set the rules, but I wonder what is average or reasonable rate to be paid for a gig as a freelance soloist, for example?
    Last edited by ian_rhythm; 09-29-2017 at 05:03 PM.

  5. #4

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    In my experience, subs get equal pay. Sometimes a little extra if it involves a lot of work, learning songs etc.

    I think about it this way: the sub is making it possible for you to do a gig you might have had to pass up.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian_rhythm
    Thanks for the clarification on sit-ins, that makes sense. It's good to distinguish between sit-in vs freelance. I am more talking about freelance players who I can "hire" to play with us.

    I know I set the rules, but I wonder what is average or reasonable rate to be paid for a gig as a freelance soloist, for example?
    What kind of gig? It all depends, there is no average. Really, there are so many variables: type of event, how long, how far, meal/drinks, tunes, getting laid, etc etc.

    If we are talking just a restaurant background gig, for me personally- $50 and up Functions are usually higher, of course.
    Last edited by Hep To The Jive; 09-29-2017 at 06:36 PM.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilpy
    In my experience, subs get equal pay. Sometimes a little extra if it involves a lot of work, learning songs etc.

    I think about it this way: the sub is making it possible for you to do a gig you might have had to pass up.
    Good point. If a sub is making it possible to accept a gig, I would offer equal pay or more in some instances.

    I'm seeing here that my terminology is not accurate. I don't mean a sit-in or a sub, exactly.

    Maybe I mean "guest musician"? The clearest example I can think at the moment would be - asking a soloist or singer if they would like to join us for a gig that we spent time booking, paying for advertising, etc.

    In this case, they wouldn't have the gig if we hadn't asked, so quite the opposite of a sub.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    What kind of gig? It all depends, there is no average. Really, there are so many variables: type of event, how long, how far, meal/drinks, tunes, etc etc.

    If we are talking just a restaurant background gig, for me personally- $50 and up Functions are usually higher, of course.
    This is closer to what I'm asking about, thanks Hep! I think $50 sounds like a reasonable base rate, so to speak.

    I want to be able to pay the players good rates, but not undercut the core-members who have more skin in the game (more time, money, and other resources invested).

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian_rhythm
    This is closer to what I'm asking about, thanks Hep! I think $50 sounds like a reasonable base rate, so to speak.
    Yea... reasonable, but cringy... Just the minimum wage for a freelancer, I guess I usually take many things into consideration before accepting this one.

  10. #9

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    I don't believe such a thing as "sit in" player you're playing the gig and get paid as such.

    My buddies band two of the members are also in very big tribute bands that work a lot during certain parts of the year. They are the regulars, if they can't make a gig their are sub's they get used. Up front the sub's know they are sub's even if they do a month of gigs, it is laid out whose regular gig it is and who is the official sub. As for money the sub's get paid what the regular member would, it's just as much work to be a sub learning tunes and arrangements and all the logistics of getting to the gig.

    So pay should not change for a "sit in" or sub they should get whatever the regular person's pay would be. If you're screwing with pay your NOT a band, but just a contractor looking for guns for hire.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I don't believe such a thing as "sit in" player you're playing the gig and get paid as such.

    My buddies band two of the members are also in very big tribute bands that work a lot during certain parts of the year. They are the regulars, if they can't make a gig their are sub's they get used. Up front the sub's know they are sub's even if they do a month of gigs, it is laid out whose regular gig it is and who is the official sub. As for money the sub's get paid what the regular member would, it's just as much work to be a sub learning tunes and arrangements and all the logistics of getting to the gig.

    So pay should not change for a "sit in" or sub they should get whatever the regular person's pay would be. If you're screwing with pay your NOT a band, but just a contractor looking for guns for hire.
    Yes, yes, good points. But I must say, I don't think my questions should be characterized as "screwing" with pay. As the manager I want to make sure the guarantee or payout is fair for all parties - that's precisely why I'm asking for guidance.

    So, in your example, no money is taken off the top for the business owner, manager, or bandleader who put in more time and have invested more money? Everyone gets an equal cut no matter what?

    I'm not against this, I'd just want to hear reasoning for it - or if that's just the acceptable thing to do. And, side note, I wouldn't even be considering this if we weren't making enough money to make everyone happy AND compensate people for extra time/travel/costs.

    Thanks again for all the input.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian_rhythm
    Yes, yes, good points. But I must say, I don't think my questions should be characterized as "screwing" with pay. As the manager I want to make sure the guarantee or payout is fair for all parties - that's precisely why I'm asking for guidance.

    So, in your example, no money is taken off the top for the business owner, manager, or bandleader who put in more time and have invested more money? Everyone gets an equal cut no matter what?

    I'm not against this, I'd just want to hear reasoning for it - or if that's just the acceptable thing to do. And, side note, I wouldn't even be considering this if we weren't making enough money to make everyone happy AND compensate people for extra time/travel/costs.

    Thanks again for all the input.

    My example I'm looking at the musicians only whatever a manager, front people, costs are already factored in. Seems like you're walking a tightrope trying to say we're a band and you get a slice after expensive and just a backup band of hired guns and everyone gets paid differently.

  13. #12

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    Sidemen get paid whatever is agreed upon. Is this a business or a hobby? It's really none of my business what other band members get paid if I get offered a gig and accept the terms. I know there are expenses involved in organizing/booking a gig, and would expect the people that did this to be making more money than me.

    Just don't expect me to go to unpaid rehearsals or get strapped with hours and hours of unpaid preparation for the gig, unless it meant LOTS of work/gigs, then it might be worth it.

    As a leader, if I book a gig, I take a minimum 10% off the top for myself before I split up money among myself and the sidemen. I really hate working for bands that are a democracy and have many "leaders". They usually fall apart just as they get successful, because nobody is the boss.

    In the end, people talk and everyone will know if you pay fair or screw folks.

  14. #13

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    If you invite an artist to do a one-off, you should pay them, and if they're going to bring up your game or get you more asses in seats, they deserve at least as much as a regular member.

    If someone wants to grab a couple of songs with you (I've asked before, myself, though I don't do it anymore because I don't want to put the bandleader in a spot), you don't owe them anything, by my reckoning -- you're giving them the exposure of a couple of songs in front of a paying crowd.

    If someone is subbing for an unavailable regular member, they should get that member's cut, and perhaps gas money if it's a slog for them, or a little extra if they've got to learn a set or two in a few days. That's work and it should be paid.

  15. #14

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    There is such thing as a booker fee, though. Usually the leader of the band, if spends a lot of time on booking a particular gig, is entitled to it IMO. That's fine, but I'd find it's strange if the whole band is getting pay more than a sub. I mean, not a very nice thing to do in a long run, the word of mouth might damage your reputation.

    OTOH, I had a gig when the bandleader said upfront that CD sales will not be an equal share, since he's still paying off musicians who are on it. That's totally fine with me.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    If you invite an artist to do a one-off, you should pay them, and if they're going to bring up your game or get you more asses in seats, they deserve at least as much as a regular member.

    If someone wants to grab a couple of songs with you (I've asked before, myself, though I don't do it anymore because I don't want to put the bandleader in a spot), you don't owe them anything, by my reckoning -- you're giving them the exposure of a couple of songs in front of a paying crowd.

    If someone is subbing for an unavailable regular member, they should get that member's cut, and perhaps gas money if it's a slog for them, or a little extra if they've got to learn a set or two in a few days. That's work and it should be paid.
    Agreed.

  17. #16

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    Alas, the bar band mentality prevails. If I pay top dollar, I will get top musicians. If I need less than that, I'll pay less than that.

  18. #17

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    There are so many factors that come in to play, such as: Is it a high paying wedding or corporate gig or is it a low paying bar gig ? Is there rehearsals involved? Is this a "band" or a group of guys that get together ? How many tunes did the "sit in" musician play ? Was there a dress code ? Etc.


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  19. #18

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    In my opinion:

    What would you expect/want to be paid for doing a similar gig. Pay rates and expectations in different area are
    not the same but I'm hopeful that 50$ is considered a low wage everywhere in the US.

    I would consider establishing a base wage with a few variables related to gig length, travel time, prep time
    (how many rehearsals, charts available,etc.). This wage could be lower than the band collective members
    or in some instances higher. It is a nice gesture when possible to offer a bonus on better than average paying gigs.
    The goal is to establish working relationships with players having the requisite skills, maintain the music quality
    and not to be continually hustling to find musicians willing to work for too little money.
    Last edited by bako; 10-01-2017 at 09:45 PM.

  20. #19

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    If I freelance a gig, my rule is I don't leave the house for less than $100.

    By the way, what you're describing is not a "sit in," it's a pro doing a job. Pay him accordingly.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    there is no booker fee in the 50$-80$ pay-out bracket anyone who works for that rate is doing you a favour and should be treated accordingly.
    You have a point there

  22. #21

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    today a working band..should have some management points..from rehearsal times/days .. travel arrangements..gear transport..and a separate meeting on money..here is where everyone MUST agree and fully know how payday works..and all the what-ifs .. its when things are "done" at the last minuet and someone says.."hey I never agreed to that.." ohhh here we go..resentment over money has been the last song for many bands.

    this issue should be visited on a regular basis because things change..and you can never assume what was agreed upon last year is what is happening now

    so not knowing the pay scale of your band I have no idea what you might pay a sit in..it does depend on what the player has to do and how much of it..

    my take -- if they are filling a spot of a regular and doing all that is required. I think they should get the pay scale of the player they are sitting in for..

  23. #22

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    I think I'd play on such a gig for free if it would stimulate me enough and promote myself. because to me, $50 is the same as nothing at all. I find anything below $120-$150 for a paid gig a bit insulting.

  24. #23

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    The leader should make these decisions, not the band. The leader should get the most money. The sidemen should get what they can negotiate for, within reason. I run a singer's outfit, which is not a permanent band, because there isn't enough work for one, so I use the top free-lancers available, whom are paid about half what I earn, and a formula has been worked out. The singer (who gets the gigs) and I earn the same, since I do the hiring, firing, charts and conducting. So, we basically split about 50% of any given gig, then distribute the rest. So, if a gig pays $1000, with singer, me and 3 other players, We'll take expenses off the top (soundman, for instance at $100), split $500, and then split the remaining $400 among the sidemen, generally will have one top-notch local "name" on board at $150, with the other two getting $125 each.

    This gets adjusted for more players (singer and I take less) or for larger and smaller budgets, but essentially, there should be a hierarchy of responsibility. Most leaderless bands, as pointed out above, collapse eventually. The local union scale should be the least anyone earns in a situation like this, union or not. $50 is really an insult unless it's a charity gig and everybody is getting that. Even the smallest union locals have a scale of $90 or more. Gigs that pay really well also include taking a larger chunk off the top for equipment upgrades or repair, publicity and a recording fund for future projects, as well as paying the regulars a bonus. A $2500 gig would include $500 off the top for the band fund, $200 (average) for each side person, and split the rest between singer and me, so we'd probably have 5 pieces at $200, then $500 each for singer and me. Since everything is charted, rehearsals become unnecessary, and paying well gets us the very best players, including members of the Boston Pops, and Tony Bennett's or Johnny A's band members when they're not on the road, making for a band that sounds like it's been together for years.

    I use a similar approach for my own trio: get the best available, send them sample clips for "feel" and style, have clear, easy charts and try to use the same folks as often as possible.

  25. #24

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    We're talking about hiring professional musicians here....? The rates mentioned just makes me sad. Or happy that I live in a part of the world where even $200 would be insulting. I wouldn't do a one-off for less than $3-400.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian_rhythm
    Thanks for the clarification on sit-ins, that makes sense. It's good to distinguish between sit-in vs freelance. I am more talking about freelance players who I can "hire" to play with us.

    I know I set the rules, but I wonder what is average or reasonable rate to be paid for a gig as a freelance soloist, for example?
    Pay 'em what the person they're subbing for gets, or what everyone else gets...