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  1. #1

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    One of the issues that I have heard from a couple of restaurant owners is that BMI and ASCAP payments make it harder for them to justify the cost of hiring performers. The value of live music is difficult to quantify, and having to buy a blanket license under the threat of a lawsuit to cover all their performers cuts into their already thin margin and consequently they haven't been having live music.

    I am assuming this is an issue elsewhere? Larger venues can just pay the fees, but for smaller ones, where the margin is tight, it isn't as easy for them. Any words of wisdom out there?

    Russ

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  3. #2

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    This has been going on for at least twenty years in our area, making gigs much harder to come by. I helped out by retiring. Someone else can have my place at The Wall. There's a size 7 1/2 dent pre-bashed. You're welcome.

  4. #3

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    It's become a problem in the last decade or so technically it was always their, but they have become jerks about it. Also cities needing more sources of revenue are going after small restaurants and clubs to pay for a cabaret license. In past BMI and ASCAP viewed it as a way to promote the music. People would hear songs in clubs and then go buy the records. Well people started stealing music so not enforcing the rules to keep their revenue rolling in. The same thing with retail store who would play the radio or CD's in the store for some atmosphere early on ASCAP and BMI ignored it, now they go after everyone they think they can shake money out of.

    To me was is really BS is when they go after these stores and small clubs they just size up what they think they can pay and charge them that much. So they really aren't tracking what is actually being played and how often so the artists just get a token payment. Just like streaming most the streaming services are leasing the music catalogs do the numbers are pretty boogus.

    So it all started with people stealing music thinking they were getting someone over on the the record companies. Well record companies, tracking companies like BMI and ASCAP, all got mad and made it worse for artists, musicians, and songwriters.

  5. #4

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    I used to play one restaurant where we just played the changes and no melodies. That was fun.

    On the other hand, composers should be compensated. As a composer, I'm all for this.

  6. #5

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    We had a similar thread going a few months ago.

    As I stated then, I run a small club and the fees annually are not that much.

    And yes, composers deserve to get paid.

  7. #6

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    Yeah. I don't know what the fees are, but they can't be much. Boo!


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  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by RClegg
    One of the issues that I have heard from a couple of restaurant owners is that BMI and ASCAP payments make it harder for them to justify the cost of hiring performers. The value of live music is difficult to quantify, and having to buy a blanket license under the threat of a lawsuit to cover all their performers cuts into their already thin margin and consequently they haven't been having live music.

    I am assuming this is an issue elsewhere? Larger venues can just pay the fees, but for smaller ones, where the margin is tight, it isn't as easy for them. Any words of wisdom out there?

    Russ
    I'm curious about what the annual fees actually are for small-to-mid size venues. The internet for what it's worth says $700-$2000 a year.

  9. #8

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    I am paying just under a grand annually. We seat less than 300 concertgoers.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Yeah. I don't know what the fees are, but they can't be much. Boo!


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    Playing Devils Advocate...

    Many places have stopped having live music, so less work and opportunities to include original work. Also less retail establishments playing radios and CD, which is a good marketing tool. I know I heard a song in a store and had to find out more about it and eventually buy it. So on one hand someone might not be making a couple cents in royalties, but as musician losing paying gigs and opportunities for your music to be heard by the public in a retail business. The fringe benefits of gigging and people interesting in hiring the group themselves, or looking of a music teacher, making contacts with other musicians who might of fell by the place and heard you.

    I don't think it's a very even trade off.

  11. #10

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    May very well be Doc. I just don't like the concept that keeps coming and keeps coming and keeps coming, of taking advantage of the artist. Part of a business investment is to plan for this. If just under a grand a YEAR is too much money maybe you shouldn't be doing music at all. Others will. If music isn't making money, maybe other ethical solutions need to be looked into.

    I haven't yet given up on any of it. I don't steal music, or download music for free. Why piss in my own bed? But society disagrees with me. Why should I go along with society? Because everyone else does? That's never been me. I see what is right from wrong for me and act, or don't act accordingly.

  12. #11

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    The costs, PRO fees and the musicians pay, vs. the benefits, increased gross profit from having the musicians.

    Increased gross profit from having musicians, after the payroll , the cost of food, rents etc. it would take a lot more incremental patrons to make financial success. Many restaurants/bars operate on small margins, many restaurants fail.

    The PRO fees aren't that high. Perhaps the bigger issue is the lack of interest in live music by the general public.

  13. #12

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    There seems to be this idea that musicians are so desperate (true) that we'll do anything for a gig. Also true. But I'm just not willing to. And I get screwed by all the other musicians who are waiting to take my place. Happens every time. But I'm tired of getting screwed. I'd rather play at home than not get paid. I'd rather not have anyone hear my CDs than give them all away.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    There seems to be this idea that musicians are so desperate (true) that we'll do anything for a gig. Also true. But I'm just not willing to. And I get screwed by all the other musicians who are waiting to take my place. Happens every time. But I'm tired of getting screwed. I'd rather play at home than not get paid. I'd rather not have anyone hear my CDs than give them all away.
    I'd rather play at home than take someones place, someone who is trying to make a living. I've arrived at this changed position over time from thinking about what I've read on this forum.

  15. #14

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    Well, to top it all off, I just heard that you have to pay for a license to drive your darn car if you want to head out onto one of them paved roads!

    I also heard another genius gripe that he could not afford to open a juke joint because the liquor commission was trying to screw him, by forcing him get a liquor license he couldn't afford. It's always someone else's fault when another ignorant businessman fails...

    Them darn musicians....if it were work, why do they call it playing music...?

  16. #15

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    I get that people should be compensated for what they do. I am not sure who benefits, profits or looses when I play "All The Things You Are". I find it curious that the fees are not based on what songs are played, how old they are, who wrote them, how long they are played, or what percentage of live music is original tunes, so it seems the venues are paying just for the right to be able to play anything. It is an odd model.

    However, given the state of the music business licensing agencies need income from where ever they can get it, and the protection of intellectual property is an important bedrock of our way of life. As someone trying to play at the margins of the music business, it is complication that makes getting a gig that much more difficult, but at the end of the day those gigs hardly justify my hobby. Or my meager guitar collection.

    Russ

  17. #16

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    Just so everyone knows, BMI and ASCAP are both not-for-profit organizations.
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 07-05-2017 at 10:58 PM.

  18. #17

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    historical tidbit...

    actual quote via wiki-

    BMI became the first performing rights organization in the United States to represent songwriters of blues, jazz, rhythm and blues, gospel (black genres, performers, and writers that ASCAP did not want to represent)

    cheers

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Just so everyone knows, BMI and ASCAP are both not-for-profit organizations.



    After working for a not for profit I'll just throw out the company not for profit, but the executive staff usually are dancing to the bank. Many not for profits will also have a for profit side with a very fuzzy line dividing the two. The mega churches for example the schools, bookstores, gift shops, book and media sales, concerts, special everts all sorts of side businesses that are for profit, but they want you to think they are part of the not for profit church side.

  20. #19

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    Every time I see one of these threads I think about this cute little cafe a few blocks from my home. The owner opened it with the intent of having live jazz (it seats 40-50 max) and I understand he did for a while until ASCAP shut him down (this all happened before I moved out here 8 years ago). He's a block away from a Starbucks and I'm sure he isn't getting rich -- it's amazing he's still in business at all! I'm sure he watches his costs carefully.

    Periodically I think about asking how much the PRO license would cost and offering to split it with him. If it's $700 and my share would be $350 I'd be willing to do that in exchange for a regular weekly gig there with my trio (upright bass and violin). I don't care about getting paid, I have a good day job, but I've never had a weekly gig. Can't imagine what that would do for my playing.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures folks, and these are desperate times for musicians. So sad.

  21. #20

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    So sad that working musicians can't find a gig because Joe Hobby will do it for free. Musicians who see no value in music....thanks.....start a bakery and give away free bread instead...

  22. #21

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    For me, sad is wishing to see others' downfall (because one doesn't want competition) - and scary is doing it behind a smile.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyp145
    Every time I see one of these threads I think about this cute little cafe a few blocks from my home. The owner opened it with the intent of having live jazz (it seats 40-50 max) and I understand he did for a while until ASCAP shut him down (this all happened before I moved out here 8 years ago). He's a block away from a Starbucks and I'm sure he isn't getting rich -- it's amazing he's still in business at all! I'm sure he watches his costs carefully.

    Periodically I think about asking how much the PRO license would cost and offering to split it with him. If it's $700 and my share would be $350 I'd be willing to do that in exchange for a regular weekly gig there with my trio (upright bass and violin). I don't care about getting paid, I have a good day job, but I've never had a weekly gig. Can't imagine what that would do for my playing.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures folks, and these are desperate times for musicians. So sad.
    'Where there's a will, there's a way.'

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    So sad that working musicians can't find a gig because Joe Hobby will do it for free. Musicians who see no value in music....thanks.....start a bakery and give away free bread instead...

    Wonder how Joe Hobby feels when his day job starts bringing in lots of interns for little and sometimes no pay, bet he sees that differently. Or as in my old field computing and jobs disappearing to India. Or company has layoffs and good people lose jobs, then the company bring in H-1B visa people because they are cheap to hire.

    For musicians bars and restaurants and similar gigs are their "day gig", same as whatever office, vehicle or machine Joe Hobby does to pay his bills.

  25. #24

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    Well I don't want to fan any flames, but the world is changing and we have a choice to find our place in the new paradigm or get crushed under the wheels of progress (or, in this case, regress -- believe me, I don't like it either). I actually don't play for free because my violinist is a pro who earns most of her living giving private violin lessons. So I'm always thinking about her whenever I book a gig and she has expressed gratitude to me for that (since my wife is the 3rd member of the trio we usually give her a very generous share of whatever we make, she's young, she needs the cash).

    I do have a suggestion. I've been subscribing to the Ari's Take newsletter for a couple of years and I find it remarkable how he manages to make a living playing original music. He's not a rock star (and may never be), but he seems to have developed a middle class lifestyle as a musician through merch sales at gigs, Patreon so his loyal fans can support him, and other revenue streams he blogs about freely. The kid is a real entrepreneur. Seems like if you do it right, the gig can be like a booth at a farmer's market, an opportunity to sell your wares to the venues customers and build a loyal following of your own.

    I know this is not a popular position. It sucks that it's not enough to be a good musician anymore. Now you have to really hustle to make a buck as a musician. But there are people who are adjusting to the new music business and some of them are even generous enough to share their ideas and philosophy with the rest of us. So I just try to take advantage of the information that's available and approach it as positively as I can. I hope that helps.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Wonder how Joe Hobby feels when his day job starts bringing in lots of interns for little and sometimes no pay, bet he sees that differently. Or as in my old field computing and jobs disappearing to India. Or company has layoffs and good people lose jobs, then the company bring in H-1B visa people because they are cheap to hire.

    For musicians bars and restaurants and similar gigs are their "day gig", same as whatever office, vehicle or machine Joe Hobby does to pay his bills.
    A musician vs. a software engineer, lousy comparison, not even close.

    I think you'd be crazy to pursue jazz guitar as a career if you were only concerned about financial security. So many better choices, like software engineering or accounting. If you are pursuing jazz guitar as a career I think it should largely be about the enjoyment you receive and the joy you can pass on to others. Same as Joe Hobby. Whining because of lack of financial success... what did you expect? Wes worked in a factory. Tal painted signs.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyp145
    Well I don't want to fan any flames, but the world is changing and we have a choice to find our place in the new paradigm or get crushed under the wheels of progress (or, in this case, regress -- believe me, I don't like it either). I actually don't play for free because my violinist is a pro who earns most of her living giving private violin lessons. So I'm always thinking about her whenever I book a gig and she has expressed gratitude to me for that (since my wife is the 3rd member of the trio we usually give her a very generous share of whatever we make, she's young, she needs the cash).

    I do have a suggestion. I've been subscribing to the Ari's Take newsletter for a couple of years and I find it remarkable how he manages to make a living playing original music. He's not a rock star (and may never be), but he seems to have developed a middle class lifestyle as a musician through merch sales at gigs, Patreon so his loyal fans can support him, and other revenue streams he blogs about freely. The kid is a real entrepreneur. Seems like if you do it right, the gig can be like a booth at a farmer's market, an opportunity to sell your wares to the venues customers and build a loyal following of your own.

    I know this is not a popular position. It sucks that it's not enough to be a good musician anymore. Now you have to really hustle to make a buck as a musician. But there are people who are adjusting to the new music business and some of them are even generous enough to share their ideas and philosophy with the rest of us. So I just try to take advantage of the information that's available and approach it as positively as I can. I hope that helps.


    Regretfully it part of this whole movement to cookie cutter everyone and everything in the world. So traditional job roles people see value in and will pay for those products and services. But musician, artist, writer, and similar creative paths they put don't feel are real jobs and not worth paying for. Started with the computer world and computers and other devices they could pickup and touch they felt had value, but anything that could be digitized like music, movies, software, ebooks, and etc they felt had no value and okay to steal. Got so bad no the companies that made those things are moving to get rid of all physical media and charge you a monthly fee to access them. Now the companies have a guaranteed flow of money coming in and you get access to what they can cut deal for. It's a vicious circle repeating it self.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Wonder how Joe Hobby feels when his day job starts bringing in lots of interns for little and sometimes no pay, bet he sees that differently. Or as in my old field computing and jobs disappearing to India. Or company has layoffs and good people lose jobs, then the company bring in H-1B visa people because they are cheap to hire.
    Traumatised by catastrophic negative emotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    For musicians bars and restaurants and similar gigs are their "day gig", same as whatever office, vehicle or machine Joe Hobby does to pay his bills.
    For Joe Hobby, those gigs are "therapeutic".

  29. #28

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    Wow. Typically I have no time or patience to read all of the wonderful replies. Let me say this to cut to the chase. I hope it's still relevant.

    I blame the musician. Anyone who cuts the balls off working musicians should be shot. You can't blame the club owner. He's just trying to make money. He will cut costs wherever he/she can. But I'm a musician. I can own that point of view.

    I blame the musician for allowing the public to devalue your art to the extent of demanding it for free. Insecure anyone? No balls anyone? I will not give it away. I will look for a creative and different paradigm. But stealing is stealing. And F that. Hobby Joe who cuts me off at the knees? F you.


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    Last edited by henryrobinett; 07-07-2017 at 11:03 PM.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    Someone else can have my place at The Wall. There's a size 7 1/2 dent pre-bashed. You're welcome.
    Love the knowing equanimity of this post.

    Realising he was about to fall and that there was nothing he could do to prevent it, my aged uncle would simply sigh - and say, "Here we go again."

    I think Peggy Lee (or at least her persona here) has - er - 'balls', too:


    Then there's:


    On the other hand, 'noblesse oblige':
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-08-2017 at 06:19 AM.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    A musician vs. a software engineer, lousy comparison, not even close.
    Actually they are very much the same especially in the early days, but even today many programmers and sysadmins (I was both at different times) are musicians. In college talking to a counselor about this they said compSci and music majors are very similar because both require same sense of abstract logic. Music and programming are both very creative outlets.

    Everyone knows you don't play Jazz for money it about expressing yourself. There is the same aspect in programming world with the FOSS (Free Open Source Software) creative programmers sharing their ideas and concepts.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Actually they are very much the same especially in the early days, but even today many programmers and sysadmins (I was both at different times) are musicians. In college talking to a counselor about this they said compSci and music majors are very similar because both require same sense of abstract logic. Music and programming are both very creative outlets.

    Everyone knows you don't play Jazz for money it about expressing yourself. There is the same aspect in programming world with the FOSS (Free Open Source Software) creative programmers sharing their ideas and concepts.
    I think there are similarities in the way you described. I've said many times where I work that I think the software engineers have the most creative job in the office.

    The difference I was referring to are in regards to the job opportunities and financial awards available to software engineers vs. jazz guitarists. I work at a medium size company in San Diego with about 150 employees, maybe about 30 of them are software engineers making about 80k and up. And, they have a 401K and health benefits.

    This is just a tiny piece of the San Diego economy. This tiny piece of the market probaly has 10 times as many 80k+ jobs as the entire population of San Diego Jazz Guitarists. I'm not sure there is one Jazz Guitarist in San Diego making 80k, maybe, maybe not?

    Being a jazz guitarist is a labor of love and sacrifice.
    Last edited by fep; 07-09-2017 at 12:05 AM.

  33. #32

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    This is a perennial topic. My take is that the venue owners are not to blame; the PROs are not to blame; Joe Hobby is not to blame. They're all scapegoats.

    What's to blame is that almost no one will bother to go out to listen to jazz any more (in the US, or perhaps just here in the Twin Cities; I don't know about other places)- it is no longer a popular form of music and hasn't been for decades. Criminy, there is a video of Pasquale Grasso playing brilliantly in a club in New York and there are about 7 people there listening. Locally certain national jazz acts *might* sell out a club like The Dakota or Vieux Carre. Better known local acts like Maud Hixson, the Wolverines, South Side Aces might fill up a room. But most times, not so much. Jazz groups are as likely to clear a room out as to fill one up.

    I hear and read similar laments from blues, rock and folk musicians.

  34. #33

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    I'm really sorry I shared my fantasy of partnering with the sweet Hawaiian guy who owns the coffee shop down the street. This thread has taken such a ridiculously nasty turn I think some of you should really be ashamed of yourselves. I'm sorry the world isn't beating a path to your door to shower you with money and adulation. As has been pointed out here and elsewhere that's sadly also true of a lot of great musicians that we all admire but who are unknown outside of a small circle of fans. If fame and fortune is what you desire go be the next Katy Perry.

    The topic is how the PROs are strangling local music by killing off all the small venues where beginning to intermediate musicians get their start. Which reminds me the venue I'm talking about seats less than 50 people. Exactly how much do you think a venue that size could afford to pay you sanctimonious jerks who want to shoot your fellow musicians? Even if you had a big following and could pack the place it probably wouldn't be enough to earn a living on.

    Meanwhile if I followed through on my idea (not saying I will but I could afford to) how many musicians do you think would be impacted? How would you be impacted if a small venue in your neighborhood opened up offering live jazz several nights a week? That was this guy's dream when he opened 10 years ago and the license fee is the only thing standing in his way.

    I know I shouldn't post when I'm po'ed but this is what's wrong with musicians. Instead of getting creative and finding a way to achieve their dreams they're busy pi$$ing on somebody else's ideas.

    Rant over, flame away...

  35. #34

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    I guess I haven't followed too closely but whose being really nasty? For me, I'm not looking for fame or fortune. I just want fair and not to be ripped off. But I never got into playing or writing music to give it away. Never, ever never. And I'm shocked ar those who profess to love music and think it's totally fine to rip musicians creative efforts off.


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  36. #35

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    So where are these musicians choosing jazz as a route to fame and fortune? I must be missing something.

    I'm beginning to wonder if it's assumed in America that it's your patriotic duty to choose a career that will make you wealthy, because if you choose something modest, you don't seem to have a right to complain when people screw you over.

    I also take exception to those that think there is something unpure or grotesque about pursuing art and trying also to derive some income from it.

    Here's some info about ASCAP for those who rather not remain uninformed. Decide for yourselves, but as a musician, don't choose ignorance

    Why ASCAP Licenses Bars, Restaurants & Music Venues
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 07-09-2017 at 11:06 PM.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyp145
    Every time I see one of these threads I think about this cute little cafe a few blocks from my home. The owner opened it with the intent of having live jazz (it seats 40-50 max) and I understand he did for a while until ASCAP shut him down (this all happened before I moved out here 8 years ago). He's a block away from a Starbucks and I'm sure he isn't getting rich -- it's amazing he's still in business at all! I'm sure he watches his costs carefully.

    Periodically I think about asking how much the PRO license would cost and offering to split it with him. If it's $700 and my share would be $350 I'd be willing to do that in exchange for a regular weekly gig there with my trio (upright bass and violin). I don't care about getting paid, I have a good day job, but I've never had a weekly gig. Can't imagine what that would do for my playing.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures folks, and these are desperate times for musicians. So sad.
    Did he negotiate? If it's a very small venue he could get it down to a dollar a day.
    Everything is negotiable.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    those that think there is something unpure or grotesque about pursuing art and trying also to derive some income from it.
    That wouldn't be me - because what I call grotesque is imputing monetary pursuit as base motive.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyp145
    The topic is how the PROs are strangling local music by killing off all the small venues where beginning to intermediate musicians get their start. Which reminds me the venue I'm talking about seats less than 50 people. Exactly how much do you think a venue that size could afford to pay you sanctimonious jerks who want to shoot your fellow musicians?
    (EDIT: The comment below stands, though I'd misunderstood PRO - taking it to mean 'professional'. Pardon my international dimension.)

    From what I've seen (i.e. in this neck of the woods) there are some pros who end up just phoning it in on a circuit of well-paid government-funded gigs - gigs which account for a significant proportion of their income.

    What disturbs me about that situation is what it says about culture among the parties involved. I think it tends to cheapen art by negatively influencing Joe Public's perception.

    Moreover, that culture tends to drive up prices at more humble venues; the fees are so inflated - fees paid from the public purse - that even 10% of such fees is beyond what humble venues can afford.

    The creative projects of pros working to high standards rarely get a look in. I imagine that's because they're not considered to have enough popular appeal, but I suspect that pros with creative projects don't bother knocking on the door to that circuit. I think pros ought to reclaim - for Culture's sake - valuable public resources assigned to culture.

    Quality counts.
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-10-2017 at 09:49 AM.

  40. #39

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    I had the good fortune many years ago to have a one on one conversation with the great Ornette Coleman. He says the problem has always been the same, since the beginning. How to make money as an artist. The artist needs to survive. It's a full time job being an artist. How does one do it? That's the question. The ANSWER does NOT involve cheapening it to the point of devaluation by giving it away. That's what the amateurs can do because it's so fun. It's just a hobby. But then HE devalues it so the person who spends all day and his entire life can derive a worthwhile income for survival. Yet society values music. They just no longer have to pay for it because everyone just wants to give it away, and then criticize professionals as cheapening the spiritual experience of the art by demanding money. That's just BS.


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  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Yet society values music. They just no longer have to pay for it because everyone just wants to give it away, and then criticize professionals as cheapening the spiritual experience of the art by demanding money.
    I think it's a mistake to conflate all music with 'spiritual experience' - lumping them together without finer differentiation or distinction.

    As for criticising professionals, my criticism is against those who habitually punch below their weight. As I wrote on the thread about the the term 'Chord Melody':
    But on another level, I think it matters a lot - because when you raise the level of the water, all the boats rise.
    - the level on which I think it matters being on the widest - societal - level.

    But - rather than throwing public money at the problem - I think government should take a line of benign neglect. If culture goes the way of the Dodo, so be it (though I think it will go the way of the Phoenix*, myself).

    Moreover, I believe the solution lies in cooperation - but not between professional musicians (though I do believe the live experience to be a trump card).

    I think professional collaborations between musicians/performers and others from outside music have sufficient potential to restore order.

    If (as it perhaps might be, in an ideal world), the chief distinction between - on the one hand - performances at corporate private events (with fancy caterers and sommeliers), concert halls, clubs and restaurants, and those - on the other - at the corner café were that of scale (size), it would seem reasonable for remuneration to be reflected in the scale of fees.

    Because - regardless of whether the performer always gives of their best - different types of gig involve different levels of inconvenience.

    And I think that for most of the above types of gig, compensation for inconvenience is where the basis of trade resides . "Fee = what it costs me in time and hassle + food + transport, minus fun and/or other value expressed as coin." Who would sacrifice Art for coin? (Probably an Artist* - "Burn, baby, burn!")

    But, for me, scale (size) isn't the chief distinction.

    Not being a 'relativist', I believe in merit. Quality matters more than quantity.

    (EDIT I'm reminded of the opera thread, and the questionable value of enhancements brought about by Super-Sizing...)

    Just because he doesn't talk about them doesn't mean Joe Hobby hasn't got criteria. I fancy Joe Hobby to be Parsifal - healing the wounded Fisher King... so that all may prosper.
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-10-2017 at 09:54 AM.

  42. #41

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    Don't worry folks. With the road we are going down in the US, there will be so many people out of work or making a poor income that they won't have money to pay internet fees, cell phone fees, buy video games, online gamble or any of the other fancy electronic pastimes that have replaced listening to music.

    When that happens, we will all have to sit around and actually talk to each other. We might even start singing and making music together again to ease the pain and liven things up. Then maybe music will be appreciated again for the healing and enjoyment in can bring.

    Then, maybe working musicians might be able to earn a decent living. It still won't be easy, but at least they might have a chance as a new generation falls in love with music again.

    Just a wild, random thought....

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    So where are these musicians choosing jazz as a route to fame and fortune? I must be missing something.

    I'm beginning to wonder if it's assumed in America that it's your patriotic duty to choose a career that will make you wealthy,
    What? A complete straw-man. No one said people are choosing jazz for fame or fortune and no one said you have to choose a career that will make you wealthy.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I'd rather play at home than take someones place, someone who is trying to make a living.
    I think that's noble, fep - but I don't think the latter are your friend.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    So sad that working musicians can't find a gig because Joe Hobby will do it for free. Musicians who see no value in music....thanks.....start a bakery and give away free bread instead...
    It feels like we've been talking past each other for the past few days so why don't we try being more direct? This was your post immediately after I suggested that I might be willing to cover part of a venue's PRO fee in exchange for a regular gig. I didn't say anything about playing for free or seeing no value in music so maybe this comment wasn't directed at me, but I interpreted it that way. If I'm wrong and you were not referring to my post than please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.

    But if it was directed at me I hope you will please elaborate on how my specific proposal would negatively impact you as a musician. And if you could find a way to do that without insulting me personally I think that would be a bonus.

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyp145
    I didn't say anything about playing for free

    I hope you will please elaborate on how my specific proposal would negatively impact you as a musician. And if you could find a way to do that without insulting me personally I think that would be a bonus.
    Asking me to reply in a manner that wouldn't insult you personally kinda implies that I've already insulted you, and I'd have to keep my nature in check not to do it again?

    I think you did take things too personally, I try to add the quotes of an individual if I'm personally adressing one of their posts....but now that you mention it, you did say you'd enjoy a weekly gig from this fellow if you went halves with him on paying his music license and you didn't care if you got paid....that sounds like playing for free, or worse, paying him to allow you to play....perhaps it's me that is misunderstanding you.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    What? A complete straw-man. No one said people are choosing jazz for fame or fortune and no one said you have to choose a career that will make you wealthy.
    Some jazz musicians were accused of complaining/whining about not being showered with money and adulation. Maybe I misinterpreted that part of the narrative...

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Some jazz musicians were accused of complaining/whining about not being showered with money and adulation. Maybe I misinterpreted that part of the narrative...
    Who? I never knew any jazz musician complaining/whining about not being showered with money and adulation. They'd be crazy. Jazz is way too small. Treated with respect? Yeah. Not being ripped off? Yes. Being able to get gigs, making a living, yes.


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  49. #48
    [QUOTE=henryrobinett;787106]Who? I never knew any jazz musician complaining/whining about not being showered with money and adulation. They'd be crazy. Jazz is way too small. Treated with respect? Yeah. Not being ripped off? Yes. Being able to get gigs, making a living, yes.


    If the girls aren't shaking their skirts on the dance floor, you probably aren't bringing home much money. Bands that can get people to dance and get sweaty (thirsty) get paid. Tears in your beer gets it done too. It really is about putting them in the bar and out of the chairs. I don't understand how you do that with jazz in this day and age. I've never seen it. So making a living playing jazz guitar? Not the easiest career choice.

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Asking me to reply in a manner that wouldn't insult you personally kinda implies that I've already insulted you, and I'd have to keep my nature in check not to do it again?

    I think you did take things too personally, I try to add the quotes of an individual if I'm personally adressing one of their posts....but now that you mention it, you did say you'd enjoy a weekly gig from this fellow if you went halves with him on paying his music license and you didn't care if you got paid....that sounds like playing for free, or worse, paying him to allow you to play....perhaps it's me that is misunderstanding you.
    When you call a fellow jazz musician "Joe Hobby" your intent is to belittle and insult, is it not? You think because I didn't choose a life of poverty as a full-time musician that I am less serious about my craft?

    As for the coffee shop, if I partner with him on this it will open up that venue to other musicians to play there. That opportunity doesn't exist today. It would be different if I was approaching an existing venue and undercutting their existing bands, that would be unethical. Anyway it's all moot because I have a member of my trio who is a full time musician so I don't take gigs that don't pay.

    Anyway I declare this horse thoroughly beaten.

  51. #50

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    [QUOTE=manleyman123;787224]
    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Who? I never knew any jazz musician complaining/whining about not being showered with money and adulation. They'd be crazy. Jazz is way too small. Treated with respect? Yeah. Not being ripped off? Yes. Being able to get gigs, making a living, yes.


    If the girls aren't shaking their skirts on the dance floor, you probably aren't bringing home much money. Bands that can get people to dance and get sweaty (thirsty) get paid. Tears in your beer gets it done too. It really is about putting them in the bar and out of the chairs. I don't understand how you do that with jazz in this day and age. I've never seen it. So making a living playing jazz guitar? Not the easiest career choice.
    That's not entirely true. Although I have find my share of dance gigs in the past, I play jazz just about exclusively now. I generally make $150-$300 per gig. Not as many of them, but I wouldn't say that was nothing. That's jazz, and often my original music. A mixture of standards bop and 75% mine.


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