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  1. #1

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    Hey there,

    Just wanted to get some thoughts. I live just outside NYC and gig frequently in and around the city.

    Recently, I played a place on the Upper West Side and we did not meet the required bar sales for the night, so we won't be invited back for at least 4-6 months, which I understand.

    I love playing music, but I can't stand marketing myself. I don't want to beg my friends to come see me all the time - occasionally letting them know I'm playing is great, but asking all the time is lame. I did have about 4-5 friends come sit and eat and buy drinks at this gig, but they wanted more.

    What are your thoughts on this? How much self-promotion is required of the musician? Should places request that you bring a certain threshold of people? How do you deal with getting people to gigs, promotion, without being sleazy?

    thanks,

    Charlie

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  3. #2

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    A ton of marketing is required. We have to get over it. I don't like it either. Clubs are in the business to make money, not to support struggling jazz musicians.

  4. #3

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    Yeah, it's gross. It's the ugly part of the job, but if you want music to be your career, you do it, or you fail.

    I'm glad I have a day job and gig if someone calls me, and if they don't, I don't. I don't have the stomach for the hustle anymore. Utmost respect to those that do, it's a grind.

  5. #4

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    With marketing it depends on what you play. I've gigged in the last 30 years but really hung it up 30 years ago. We used to build an audience. There was no marketing.
    I don't want my friends at the gig. I want my enemies at the gig.

  6. #5

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    I don't want my friends at the gig. I want my enemies at the gig.

    You got that right. Visual artists, painters for example, say that if you've only sold work to friends you're not really in the game. I gig occasionally and will casually mention it to friends in the same way that I might tell them that I'm going to be out of town for the weekend. If they come, they come. Building an audience and a career is tough and requires getting people that you don't know to come out.




  7. #6

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    I think social media/marketing etcetera is a BS substitute for building a real audience the old fashioned way.

    Easier said than done.

  8. #7

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    I'm playing tonight at a venue that holds about 100, and it will be full. We play there about every month and a half, and 3 weeks before every gig we're all reminding our friends, promoting on Facebook with photos of the band, etc.
    These days, people need to be prodded to go out! Someone wants to sit in for a song? OK! (sometimes painful!) They'll be back next time with 5 friends. You've got to stroke your audience....unfortunately, no audience, no gig.

    I admit that I also find this aspect distasteful, as I'm not a real social person. But it's necessary if you want to keep getting gigs. Of course, having a good band helps, but it's not enough....

  9. #8

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    First, there is another good thread going right now on paying to gig. What insight to the state of affairs.

    I have two friends who pretty much disbanded their bands as a result of the same type of scenario. In this area, there are promotional agents who put together concerts for their clients. Keep in mind, this is more of a rock, pop, metal scene, since those are who the youngsters and paying public mostly want to go see.

    Anyway, their bands joined this firm and were put billed on performances. If they could pull in the required amount of people, then they would get booked again. Those that had poor numbers, like the bands of my friends, got cut from the promotional firm.

    And to think that I use to wonder why the front-door ticket takers always seemed to be asking which band I had come to see...

  10. #9

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    [QUOTE=AlsoRan;779397]First, there is another good thread going right now on paying to gig. What insight to the state of affair>

    The owner wants the musicians to bring people in so he can sell food and drink.

    If you're good enough to build a following, that can work.

    But, that's really hard to do playing listening, as opposed to dancing, music. And even harder with jazz, which can be difficult music.

    The guys who are successful at building a following are, in my experience, truly extraordinary musicians.

    I'm at a level where I'd have to rely on friends showing up, and I don't want to bother them.

    But, it's like any other service a restaurant or nightclub buys. You must be worth your cost.

  11. #10

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    Anyone that can fill seats gets to have control of things. If you can do that, you have a product with value to others, and they'll pay for it.

    As mentioned, it's more about business than music.

  12. #11

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    Robert Fripp said 'amateur musicians deal with music, professional musicians deal with business, but this is the price we pay...'

    Always remember that quote whenever I get annoyed with it all, all the emailing and phoning and cajoling and admin and so on.

  13. #12

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    Maybe a little off topic but...
    I've been playing music out now since my 9th grade graduation. Two guitars and a mic all plugged into a Gibson amp. It's been 50 yrs since then and the atmosphere for playing out has certainly changed. I work a lot for the last 20 yrs with a mandolin/guitarist partner. We do a wide variety of material. American songbook, standards, etc. We get compliments all the time and our performance is very tight. No one wants to pay for musicians. We play weekly in a restaurant for tips...people clap, make requests, sing along, compliment and almost never tip. The owner offers us a meal and drinks but neither of us ever partake. I know we were fools to take this on under these conditions but that's water under the bridge ; its been great practice. I blame our current culture where music off all sorts, good to terrible is ubiquitous and free. On another note we have a friend who owns one of the last remaining music stores for many miles around. Not only is the internet killing his business but he says young people are not interested in taking up an instrument as they used to be. He's 30+ years in the buisness so he has some insight into this. It's a sad state of affairs. I am fortunate to make my living away from being a guitarist but it's painful to see this arena in the sorry state it's in today.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwcarr
    but he says young people are not interested in taking up an instrument as they used to be. .
    Really??? Man, all I see is EVERYONE wanting to play an instrument, and sing, and put themselves on youtube....

    IDK anything about actual instrument sales, I'm sure the cheaper models sell better, as always, but it seems to me ALOT of young people at least START an instrument these days, everyone wants to "be a star", since, thanks to Youtube and the reality talent tv shows, "being a star" is what has become ubiquitous. Every bar/club around here has an "open mic" once a week, and all kinds of people who think they're good (some are, some are NOT) crawl out of the woodwork to perform in front of an audience.

  15. #14

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    My semi-professional days of gigging are over. Giving away free LP's (yes, that long ago) and handing out free tickets just to get a buzz going is okay when you're young, full of energy and naive. fast forward to now and I only get involved for charity events.
    Pedalling an exercise bike while playing guitar, dressing up as Sylvester the cat and playing guitar and the sense of achievement far outweighs that burned feeling when a club promoter rips you off.

    The last gig I was involved with we raised £5k for a mental health charity. Their was alcohol, food, quizzes, a short play, a full military band and the venue reduced its tariff. We played three 30 minutes sets. Good times.

    I guess the self promotion thing might work through this avenue. Factor in your personal costs which all charities are okay with. A lot of charities have event teams that can help organise and run. Obviously selling any CD's will involve a cut to the charity. Ask for a minimum donation for the CD and you'll be surprised what you'll get.
    Then quickly follow up with a paying gig and a lot of the charity audience will attend.

  16. #15
    Lots of responses, thank you.

    A number of people alluded to "building an audience" and one or two people talked about specific ways they get people to gigs, so a more pointed question -

    How do you build an audience? Facebook events, inviting friends? What about getting your "enemies" (see above) to your gig? I feel like I've got a great band, but that obviously isn't enough to get a strong word of mouth going for a number of reasons, one being because there are so many good musicians out there.

    Is it possible? Impossible? What do you think?

    Good discussion, thanks again!

    Charlie

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by crhyner
    Lots of responses, thank you.

    A number of people alluded to "building an audience" and one or two people talked about specific ways they get people to gigs, so a more pointed question -

    How do you build an audience? Facebook events, inviting friends? What about getting your "enemies" (see above) to your gig? I feel like I've got a great band, but that obviously isn't enough to get a strong word of mouth going for a number of reasons, one being because there are so many good musicians out there.

    Is it possible? Impossible? What do you think?

    Good discussion, thanks again!

    Charlie
    Man I can't really opine on how to do this in NYC.
    I know a little bit how I do it in London.

  18. #17

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    I played in a couple good club bands in the 80's. Very good. Looking back it was a complete waste of time. What keeps me living in the past is the quality of the music.
    I don't like to record music but I'm going to start. There's so much drama and ugliness involved in putting on a good show in a club. It's just not worth it to me. I'm old now anyway.
    Every venue is going to be a unique situation and it's possible to get a rewarding gig. The trick is to keep it.
    It comes down to social skills.

    Jam at home. Do nursing homes. Join a jam band.

  19. #18

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    So not only are artist faced with finding gigs, they are also faced with the task of having to create demand where there is very little. Wow.

    This is daunting for most, but I can for those that enjoy interacting and persuading people (the salesman mentality), it could be an exciting prospect.

  20. #19

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    [QUOTE=crhyner;779497]Lots of responses, thank you.

    A number of people alluded to "building an audience" and one or two people talked about specific ways they get people to gigs, so a more pointed question -

    How do you build an audience? Facebook events, inviting friends? What about getting your "enemies" (see above) to your gig? I feel like I've got a great band, but that obviously isn't enough to get a strong word of mouth going for a number of reasons, one being because there are so many good musicians out there.>>>>

    There is a story about a young jazz musician asking Tony Bennett's pianist how to be discovered and get great gigs.

    Reportedly, the answer was "go home and practice. when you're good enough, they'll find you".

    I think the way to build a following is to play really good music, really well. It can be really difficult emotionally, but some players have to face the likelihood that if people don't want to hear it, it simply isn't good enough quality.

    Although people disparage Real Book gigs, I regularly go hear a band that does that. Last time, they even played Bye Bye Blackbird. What's good? They have a pro quality female singer, who fronts the band. The reed man is one of the best players in the area. Bass, drums and keys (electronic kb) are tight. And, the sound reinforcement is perfect for the room. Bass and drums don't solo much.

    They simply sound great. Everybody in the audience is tapping their feet, some people dance (so the band keeps to swing music and dance tempos - they aren't playing bop heads or music that might be inaccessible to the audience) and the solos are really melodic. They attract and hold an audience and the gig pays adequately. These guys are long term pros that understand how to be appealing.

    Other times, when I've gone to a Real Book gig, even with good individual players, there's no vocalist, nobody fronts the band, the sound reinforcement is mediocre or non-existent, the tune selection is unappealing to casual jazz fans, the instrumentalists are in each other's way - particularly if there is guitar and keys, the drummer is too loud, the bassist wants to solo as much as the horn -- and does it on an acoustic bass in an echoey room so that you can barely tell one note from another, the soloists aren't all that melodic and the rhythm section doesn't swing.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by crhyner
    Hey there,

    Just wanted to get some thoughts. I live just outside NYC and gig frequently in and around the city.

    Recently, I played a place on the Upper West Side and we did not meet the required bar sales for the night, so we won't be invited back for at least 4-6 months, which I understand.

    I love playing music, but I can't stand marketing myself. I don't want to beg my friends to come see me all the time - occasionally letting them know I'm playing is great, but asking all the time is lame. I did have about 4-5 friends come sit and eat and buy drinks at this gig, but they wanted more.

    What are your thoughts on this? How much self-promotion is required of the musician? Should places request that you bring a certain threshold of people? How do you deal with getting people to gigs, promotion, without being sleazy?

    thanks,

    Charlie
    I'm with you.

    I NEVER tell any owner I'll bring people in, only that I won't chase 'em out. To do otherwise is to set a trap for oneself.

    Having said this, I do due diligence sending email alerts, FB, etc. I even went on the air on WKCR once to salvage a gig. Didn't work. You do your best, and cannot put a net over people. They'll come if they can and want to. I tell owners that, too. End of story.

    I think I know the place to which you refer. I'll leave the name out. I liked the owner at first, and he gave me 3 gigs this year---more than I can say for other unnamed owners. But he pays crap, makes musicians pay for 1/2 a meal----and I just don't like playing the room. It's not a listening room, and I busted my ass bringing in top muso colleagues, and playing (and singing) my heart out. An oil painting. Why bother? Move on dot org.

    I'm at the point now where I moved OUT of NY to take it easy. I'm slowly establishing myself in these more relaxed environs, just got a teaching gig---a great opportunity to build an entire music program starting in September. Who needs drama? I'll only take gigs I enjoy, with low-maintenance people I enjoy working with and being around. I found a wonderful singer to sing my songs and back her on her stuff. We already did a radio show.

    Life is short, and music beautiful. If it's not fun...

  22. #21

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    I don't care if it's totally gone/free jazz, if you can get people dancing you've got a chance at getting paying gigs.

    "Funky" sells.

  23. #22

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    Jazz isn't a very popular product, and one shouldn't have very high expectations for it. Even great musicians that are willing to go play whatever is the most in-demand, commercially popular style of music have to work their asses off as businessmen to keep their calendars full...

    Jazz is like selling disease to the healthy.

  24. #23

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    Let's hear it for low expectations! My expectations are nearly non existent so I'm rarely disappointed.

  25. #24

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    I gig in NYC. Most of my gigs are in restaurants and bars, sometimes I get function gigs or weddings out of it. If an owner or manager asks to bring people I know it's a BS place, I don't even bother. If your friends come it's a bonus, but not in any way should be a requirement.

    Now, if you play clubs dedicated to live music, then it's a different story.

    Anyway, in NYC there are tons of work, just hang with the right people. Haha I'm saying all those smart things, but after 4 years of trying to break into the scene, I'm still on the fringes. But it gets better.

    And I always admit I dont play any serious type of jazz, just trad/hot/ Gypsy variety. Everyone likes that music, even if they dont think much of it. Contemporary jazz cats are not always that lucky with work.

  26. #25

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    Musicians are small businesses, unless amateur (the Latin root for love is amas), and business is business. Nobody who runs a store, bakery, recording studio, garage, or nightclub is free of the demands of marketing, budgeting, P & L, contracts, trends, competition or any of the myriad demands, so we are given no real choice but to suck it up and sell ourselves.

    And, realistically, most players only actually gig a few hours a day; after all, gigs run from 45 minutes to maybe 4 hours, so there should be adequate time to practice, write and do your business. Jazz is especially difficult to sell, so more attention must be paid to business, not less. There are very few jazz musicians who can afford to refuse other kinds of gigs, from studio work, like most of our heroes did, to weddings and corporate events to sideman work, etc. I've made a living for 50 years as a guitarist, mostly jazz gigs, and I've had tough times, but almost always because I didn't pay attention to business. Now that I do, I'm as busy as I want to be, and my fees are enough to take care of the household and the maintenance of my gear and transportation.

    All of the marketing and sales tools one needs are now readily available, and instead of complaining, get to work on a vital aspect of your small business: making an income! Set aside a handful of hours weekly to explore potential gigs, to put up a marketing page on facebook or whichever platform you like, and to build a fan base that you can reach out to. The ability to reach your friends, relatives and any fans of your style of music will fill the seats, that's what the buyer needs in order to book you.