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  1. #1
    Dutchbopper Guest
    I only do a few gigs every year. The reason is simple. There are no paid gigs for the kind of stuff I play (mainstream and bebop). Nobody over here in the Netherlands can survive playing jazz, not even the name players. They all teach on the side. Amateur jazz combos mostly play for nothing, ruining the market further. I don't blame them. The alternative is NOT playing out ever. Sure there are a few corporate gig possibilities (wallpaper gigs I call them, I find them utterly boring) but even these do not amount to much money wise. A plumber will invariably make more in the same time.

    So money wise, jazz is not relevant. You'd be lucky to find a non paying gigging opportunity. Still, this week ago I was confronted with a trend that even lowers the bar further. I play in the combo of a jazz vocal group (8 singers, think New York Voices, Manhattan Transfer etc.). Some venues that we approach actually want us to PAY for a gig if the revenues are below the break even point (booze and bar personnel). To minimalise the risk of losing money they simply demand the band pay for any deficiency in revenues.

    Heck, that's new to me. I told the band leader not on my turf. The situation is bad enough as it is. I hate playing for free. But paying for as gig? Haha ... I'll stay home.

    Is this a new trend?

    DB

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  3. #2

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    "Pay to play" has definitely been a thing on this side of the pond for quite a while. I think it's disgusting.

  4. #3

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    Heck, we were doing "pay to play" back in the late 80's-early 90s. Then live music in general took a nosedive, alot of clubs even closed. I have no idea how it works these days, because I haven't played out in quite awhile, but I have a friend who opened for a national act, and he had to "sell x number of tickets"- meaning, if he didn't sell them, HE had to pay for them. That's pay-to-play. So I guess in at least some instances, it still happens.

  5. #4

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    Pay to play gigs in Toronto have been common for a long while. Luckily, Toronto has a large corporate base which supplies musicians with many higher paying opportunities. There are also cocktail parties/weddings which provide higher paying opportunities. These are the type of gigs that many musicians find boring, however they do offer opportunities for you play and be paid. That being said, you still need to supplement your income with a day job. The average house in Toronto sells for about 1 million dollars (that's a lot of cocktail parties). I refuse to pay to play, and I also do a very limited number of commission gigs (that is where you get paid a percentage of the bars intake while you are performing). I play a couple of weekly gigs (paying) and focus my energies on weddings (I do about 50 a year) and corporate events ( I do about 35 a year). This does not equate to a salary that is sufficient enough to live in a million dollar house.


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  6. #5

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    When we moved to New England in 1977 rock bands were paying to play in Boston.

    Danny W.

  7. #6

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    There are two clubs in Warsaw.
    If you want to play on jam session you have to pay about $3.
    but I never heared about paying for playing gig.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    There are two clubs in Warsaw.
    If you want to play on jam session you have to pay about $3.
    but I never heared about paying for playing gig.
    Wow... that's the opposite of the US. We have "open mic nights" that have no cover charge, you get up and play whatever you want. You don't pay, you don't get paid. It's free music (altho in some cases you couldn't use the adjective "good" LOL) for the club owner, he still sells drinks on an off night, and musicians who couldn't otherwise perform in public, get to.

  9. #8

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    Yeah, the pay to play scheme I've seen here for at least 20 years (and I'm sure it's been around longer) is the "Get a book of tickets, sell 'em all, you keep a cut." But people rarely "sell 'em all."

    I've been in bands that did the DIY punk aesthetic thing...rent a VFW hall, sell your own tickets, take your own risk...we always made money, which we blew on beer. Man, I don't miss being in rock bands.

  10. #9

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    We have one very good paying regular gig, but most paying places want to pay a very low amount. We just skip those "opportunities". It's not worth it to me. The rest only hire a solo person doing a lot of Billy Joel type stuff or just have an open mic.

    We used to have a weekly commission based gig, taking a percentage of the nights total sales. Sometimes those nights would be a big windfall, but others they would be a wash, maybe making more in tips than in our cut from the club.

    I haven't heard of any pay to play around here.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    Wow... that's the opposite of the US. We have "open mic nights" that have no cover charge, you get up and play whatever you want. You don't pay, you don't get paid. It's free music (altho in some cases you couldn't use the adjective "good" LOL) for the club owner, he still sells drinks on an off night, and musicians who couldn't otherwise perform in public, get to.
    That's true. At least we still have our open mics here in the US. The music that can pay the most is old school R&B but that's generally covered by corporate Top 40 bands doing private functions.

  12. #11

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    The bad economy and cities looking for every dollar they can isn't helping. Lots of small bars and restaurants that had live music on weekend had to stop because cities started making restaurants get cabaret license for clearing a couple tables and having a band. Then ASCAP and BMI going after anyone with a band or even playing a CD or radio to pay royalty flat fee, so not only live music is disappearing so is even playing recorded music in restaurants, clothing stores, all over. Music scene is turning into internet and big clubs.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    "Pay to play" has definitely been a thing on this side of the pond for quite a while. I think it's disgusting.
    Worse, it's degrading.

    There was a pub down south that put on acts every weekend, very well attended. The acts (I knew them) were paid but, at the end of the evening, the landlord produced a hat and asked everyone to stick in something for the band. It looked pretty brazen, and it was.

    Everyone I knew immediately thought 'Huh, you admit you're not paying them enough, then!'. The point was by that time they were a kind of captive audience, and a bit sloshed, and it played on their feelings not to look mean.

    I used to play there before they started all that but, if I had been, I'd have asked him not to do it.

  14. #13

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    Sorry, that story hasn't got much to do with pay-to-play gigs. I don't know about things in the States but would they let you ask for contributions at the end?

    On the grounds you're all starving, naturally... make the proprietors look guilty :-)

  15. #14

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    Wow! What stories.

    If I have to pay to play a gig, then that would be very disconcerting. But if there is truly no audience for a type of music, as we know full well in certain areas this is the case, then the only other alternative is to rent a venue and put on a show yourself.

    This would be an even worse option, since now you have the expense of renting a venue and all of the other costs.

    I guess that if there is no demand for the music, then the only option is to rent a venue or partner with someone that owns a venue, assuming some of the expense and risk.

    "Times, they are a-changin'....," as Dylan pointed out...

  16. #15

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    Are these still happening? Showcase gigs. Apparently so. I used to hear about them in the 80s and 90s.

    pay-to-play showcase | So You Wanna be a Rockstar?
    Last edited by mrcee; 06-09-2017 at 02:56 PM.

  17. #16

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    You have to see it from the venues side as well. These guys aren't raking it in. The showcase thing is a racket tho. I don't do those and neither do any jazz guys I know.

    Anyway I think the scene is a bit better in London. That's why everyone from Europe comes here I guess.

    I will take any gig that's offered to me that I think sounds interesting regardless of pay and so on, provided it wasn't on a fri sat or sun. I wouldn't pay to play.

    I have trouble asking any of my bands to work for free though.

    But yeah the money can be very poor. One possible solution for a band leader is to take the money from functions and sink it into a communal pot that subsidises the badly paid gigs.

    Finally jazz musicians do better than rock/pop etc bands playing originals where I am. Even signed bands. We get paid at all.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-09-2017 at 04:11 PM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Wow! What stories.

    If I have to pay to play a gig, then that would be very disconcerting. But if there is truly no audience for a type of music, as we know full well in certain areas this is the case, then the only other alternative is to rent a venue and put on a show yourself.

    This would be an even worse option, since now you have the expense of renting a venue and all of the other costs.

    I guess that if there is no demand for the music, then the only option is to rent a venue or partner with someone that owns a venue, assuming some of the expense and risk.

    "Times, they are a-changin'....," as Dylan pointed out...
    I rather go to a Home concert. Some people will get good local talent, occasional name artist and have a concert in their house, barn or ???. They just advertise locally a lot of word-of-mouth, so low cost to put on. Artist say the audiences are typically great because they are people really in to the music. Many artists don't charge much to do these because they fit them into off days on their schedule.

    Anther thing I used to see was musicians would play some cocktail Jazz for an Art Gallery opening in trade to use the Art Gallery one night for a small concert. A win-win for both especially since the art gallery crowd tend to be the types to throw parties and want some live music.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    I only do a few gigs every year. The reason is simple. There are no paid gigs for the kind of stuff I play (mainstream and bebop). Nobody over here in the Netherlands can survive playing jazz, not even the name players. They all teach on the side. Amateur jazz combos mostly play for nothing, ruining the market further. I don't blame them. The alternative is NOT playing out ever. Sure there are a few corporate gig possibilities (wallpaper gigs I call them, I find them utterly boring) but even these do not amount to much money wise. A plumber will invariably make more in the same time.

    So money wise, jazz is not relevant. You'd be lucky to find a non paying gigging opportunity. Still, this week ago I was confronted with a trend that even lowers the bar further. I play in the combo of a jazz vocal group (8 singers, think New York Voices, Manhattan Transfer etc.). Some venues that we approach actually want us to PAY for a gig if the revenues are below the break even point (booze and bar personnel). To minimalise the risk of losing money they simply demand the band pay for any deficiency in revenues.

    Heck, that's new to me. I told the band leader not on my turf. The situation is bad enough as it is. I hate playing for free. But paying for as gig? Haha ... I'll stay home.

    Is this a new trend?

    DB
    You ALWAYS pay one way or another.

    Er, um, WAIT A MINUTE. I was thinking of WOMEN...

    Say hi to my Hague boys if you see 'em (Juraj, Vincent, Danny Nicholas, Peter Crazy Man Beets, and especially Anette Von Eichel. She lives in Cologne now but still gives classes at the Royal Conserv. Great lady).

    Good to hear from you, too, Dick. Keeps those videos comin'...

  20. #19

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    The audience for jazz is tiny. Local musicians around here make little or nothing on gigs, and at least one well-known local venue with frequent national acts pretty much expects the local musicians to spend what they get paid at the bar. If you don't, you don't get another gig there unless you drew really well.

    The national acts at that venue cost the customers $25-50 per set, occasinally more (Pat Metheny was about $100 a ticket a year or two go). Those national-class musicians that I have talked to seemed pretty satisfied with their cut there, and schedule it as a destination gig. So it's good they make some money at it.

    The funny thing is that the local jazz festival draws thousands of people each night for several evenings, but those folks never seem to come out to clubs to hear jazz. So it looks like there is a market for festival jazz but not for gigging jazz.

    My band is frankly not IMHO good enough to charge people to listen to us, although a couple of us would like to gig a lot. One of us (at 60) still has dreams of making it big in music and playing, as he puts it, bigger stages with bigger audiences. Good luck to him- he's talented and maybe can make that work. I'm not likely to progress much beyond the intermediate stage of development and would be fine never gigging at all, as I generally find the audience a hindrance to the experience of playing jazz; I much prefer rehearsals to gigs. Part of it is that most of the audience often can't hear- they applaud mediocre rote solos and don't repond to good, passionate and inventive solos. We have a standing coffee house gig once a month for tips, which is enough for me.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    The audience for jazz is tiny. Local musicians around here make little or nothing on gigs, and at least one well-known local venue with frequent national acts pretty much expects the local musicians to spend what they get paid at the bar. If you don't, you don't get another gig there unless you drew really well.

    The national acts at that venue cost the customers $25-50 per set, occasinally more (Pat Metheny was about $100 a ticket a year or two go). Those national-class musicians that I have talked to seemed pretty satisfied with their cut there, and schedule it as a destination gig. So it's good they make some money at it.

    The funny thing is that the local jazz festival draws thousands of people each night for several evenings, but those folks never seem to come out to clubs to hear jazz. So it looks like there is a market for festival jazz but not for gigging jazz.

    My band is frankly not IMHO good enough to charge people to listen to us, although a couple of us would like to gig a lot. One of us (at 60) still has dreams of making it big in music and playing, as he puts it, bigger stages with bigger audiences. Good luck to him- he's talented and maybe can make that work. I'm not likely to progress much beyond the intermediate stage of development and would be fine never gigging at all, as I generally find the audience a hindrance to the experience of playing jazz; I much prefer rehearsals to gigs. Part of it is that most of the audience often can't hear- they applaud mediocre rote solos and don't repond to good, passionate and inventive solos. We have a standing coffee house gig once a month for tips, which is enough for me.
    It comes down to how much do you want to play what you want to play. As I stated earlier in this thread, I play a lot. About 4 or 5 a week. My work is primarily Corporate events and cocktail parties. I am not playing innovative stuff. Just standards. Nothing original. A lot of "Night and Day", "The Girl from Ipanema", "It's only a paper moon" type stuff. These gigs are unlike club dates. People hear you but they are not "listening". No one goes to a wedding to check out the band performing the cocktail hour. However the payout comes in the form of money and more gigs. These "suit and tie" gigs pay anywhere from $150 to $250 per player.

    It comes down to how much do you want to play what you want to play.

  22. #21

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    It can be similar in amateur dentistry, sometimes you have to offer free anesthesia and $10 a tooth just to get to try out your new drill or pliers.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    It can be similar in amateur dentistry, sometimes you have to offer free anesthesia and $10 a tooth just to get to try out your new drill or pliers.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But yeah the money can be very poor. One possible solution for a band leader is to take the money from functions and sink it into a communal pot that subsidises the badly paid gigs.
    one thing that surprised me reading Gary Burton's biography is when he tells Pat Metheny the equivalent of "duh, of course you're going to lose money your first few years as a bandleader. you have to pay everyone and you're not always gonna get paid well (or at all) for every gig".

    I was surprised that was the case even then, and even for people like Gary. From everything I've read about Pat's career, his band lived hand to mouth a long time before they made any money.

    for what it's worth, if I'm leading a gig, I pay people out of pocket if the gig doesn't pay and hire the best players. If I don't feel like doing this, I just don't take the gig.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    one thing that surprised me reading Gary Burton's biography is when he tells Pat Metheny the equivalent of "duh, of course you're going to lose money your first few years as a bandleader. you have to pay everyone and you're not always gonna get paid well (or at all) for every gig".

    I was surprised that was the case even then, and even for people like Gary. From everything I've read about Pat's career, his band lived hand to mouth a long time before they made any money.

    for what it's worth, if I'm leading a gig, I pay people out of pocket if the gig doesn't pay and hire the best players. If I don't feel like doing this, I just don't take the gig.
    Well... That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Good story. I'm doing quite well then haha... (Although making and releasing a record will more than eat any profits from my bands gigs.)

  26. #25

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    I haven't heard of pay to play around here (sf bay area), but I have certainly heard of leaders taking risks and losing money. One friend who leads a quintet recently filled a local club and was happy to break even.

    a couple of years ago I heard of a trio with a recent grammy award still taking $100 gigs.

    I produced a benefit concert a couple of years ago where I had to guarantee the food service people a minimum sales figure, $300. Meaning, if they grossed $200, I had to pay $100. as it turned out, they were way over.

    I play twice a month with an octet at a large local restaurant for food and tips. no big deal for me, since I have a day gig, but there are some top (in our area) working pros in that band.

    another top local player put out a very well produced album ... I asked if it made any money. the response was bitter laughter.