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For now I'll just learn the tunes that I like the most, be it jazz or something else.
Does anyone else ever have these feelings that the jazz culture strongly encourages learning standards and then some more standards? Do you like the tunes that you learn or is it out of necessity?[/QUOTE]
I agree with you ,
Its cool , its all music , you've gotta play what
you love ....
I do learn tunes out of necessity sometimes ...
but I usually end up finding something in it
I like anyway !
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02-23-2017 07:30 PM
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Do you like jazz is a pretty broad question.
We often talk about becoming a "well rounded jazz musician", but there are so many styles within or related to jazz that probably nobody likes them all.
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No jams in my area except for over in Buzzy's basement on Wednesday nights. After they fire up the bong, the only song you need to know is the jam section of Neil Young's "Down By The River"....but that usually heads into the same sonic territory as Coltrane's "A Love Supreme"...
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 02-24-2017 at 04:10 AM.
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I'm kind of summarizing what others have said, but once you learn 5-10 standards well, it get easier to learn more.
Going to a jazz jam is nerve-wracking and embarrassing the first time, but gets less so each time.
If they're all using realbooks, it's kind of lame but it's kind of a break, too.
Is somebody calls a tune and you don't know it, go home and learn it for the next time.
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I'm probably starting to sound like a shill, but if you're on facebook, check out jam of the week. You don't even have to post, just learn the tune of the week each week.
I've been participating for 2 years now, and I've really made big progress in my ability to learn and internalize tunes quickly. And much of it is from the repetition of the process, and being able to recognize similarities (I'm starting to be convinced there's only been about 4-5 B sections ever written)
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Jam sessions are for learning tunes. Go, and learn.
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I'm going to a jam session next week. I don't plan on doing many songs as its my first time. I always hated trying to play a tune I haven't figured out perfectly so I came up with this list of ten tunes I'm gonna be prepared to play:
all the things you are
blue in green
oleo
all blues
tenor madness
blue monk
my funny valentine
round midnight
on green dolphin street
footprints
I like to be able to relax and be creative with my playing, its only on attya, blue in green and the blues tunes that I can do it at the moment. But I think I can learn the rest (4 songs) pretty well in a week. I do know how to play them but to be able to really play them is a different story... Don't want to be thinking about the changes, makes for a better solo
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That's a great list! Two points from my limited jam experience. People like to play Oleo FAST, which makes the syncopated rhythms hard. And people usually play Green Dolphin Street in Eb, not C as in the Real Book.
Originally Posted by mokapot
I'm going to a jam session next week. I don't plan on doing many songs as its my first time. I always hated trying to play a tune I haven't figured out perfectly so I came up with this list of ten tunes I'm gonna be prepared to play:
all the things you are
blue in green
oleo
all blues
tenor madness
blue monk
my funny valentine
round midnight
on green dolphin street
footprints
I like to be able to relax and be creative with my playing, its only on attya, blue in green and the blues tunes that I can do it at the moment. But I think I can learn the rest (4 songs) pretty well in a week. I do know how to play them but to be able to really play them is a different story... Don't want to be thinking about the changes, makes for a better solo
(This is based on only jams around Washington, DC--not sure if it's true in Finland!)
Have fun!
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The OP seems to show that you ain't in jazz at all. It's out there, the jazz castle, .. on the hill and you are wondering where is the door.
It's not like that at all. "Finding a way in".. 10 standards won't do it, try 100. For starters. With each one spend a day or two. As you would with a hard solid classical piece. Maybe a week even. Or two. If you think its boring, you are just doing it wrong and not even having a clue what the possibilities are with 1 measly tune. Also, avoid thinking that you got to build the comfort zone within the tune. The fun begins when you wanna get out of it.
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Learning 4 tunes in a week sounds like cramming. That quantity of material won't stick unless you are practicing an absurd amount and you already have the tunes deeply in your ear. For most people, I think 1 or 2 tunes a week is about right. Even with lots of practicing. It does get easier but that's after you've learned 50, 75, 100 tunes and can play them in different keys etc. Originally Posted by mokapot
I'm going to a jam session next week. I don't plan on doing many songs as its my first time. I always hated trying to play a tune I haven't figured out perfectly so I came up with this list of ten tunes I'm gonna be prepared to play:
all the things you are
blue in green
oleo
all blues
tenor madness
blue monk
my funny valentine
round midnight
on green dolphin street
footprints
I like to be able to relax and be creative with my playing, its only on attya, blue in green and the blues tunes that I can do it at the moment. But I think I can learn the rest (4 songs) pretty well in a week. I do know how to play them but to be able to really play them is a different story... Don't want to be thinking about the changes, makes for a better solo
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I have casually played more jazz tunes in the past but to me it doesn't count unless you can play it in different keys and relax. Relax as in you can hear the basic structure at all times so you can vary your improvisation. That's not comfort zone is it?
It's not like the four or five tunes I'm practising are not familiar to me. Lets use all the things you are as an example, I have been playing it by myself for years and I still keep improving I appreciate your responses!
Last edited by mokapot; 03-02-2017 at 07:46 AM.
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It can be. Relaxing nicely into a tune is good but can end up playing the same stuff over and over. That's why I'd suggest target 100 tunes instead 10. Less boredom and expand your view to improvising. Also you can learn faster each next tune and that's pretty important. Originally Posted by mokapot
But I understood from the OP that you can't play one tune with enthusiasm for long enough. But there should be a breaking point when you cant stop playing it over and over and "getting high" from doing it. Has it happen with you sometimes? Without that happening, I would have stopped long ago trying to learn new musics myself..
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I had a conversation with another guitarist last night, where he mentioned his pianist ex-wife.
She used to tell him off for always practicing scales, modes and soloing, saying 'why don't you practice the songs you are going play? All guitarists do this. It's crap.'
Great lesson, I think. Pianists in general are much better at music than guitarists, so it's good to listen to their advice.
Learn some bloody songs. If you don't have any impetus to do this due to gigging or playing in a band, jam sessions are very very helpful.
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I'll try to express what I originally came here to talk about. I couldn't possibly learn a hundred tunes because I only believe in mastering them, playing them with originality. It's only through learning the lyrics and the melody very well, learning it in different keys, trying to play in one position of the neck all the way through, changing the rhythm, all these things that help me really internalize the song... that I have come to enjoy these jazz tunes as much as any other song. I make my own songs and learn a lot of rock songs, blues, soul, anything I might like and anything I find I can master and make into something of my own.
Now if you can learn a hundred jazz songs, great. If you can do it in a different way from what I do, great. I like to make any piece of music my own. I'm not saying that you aren't doing that but to me its a must if I am to find motivation to practice them more than I do something like a david bowie song, or a john mayer song.
I agree that you should always learn new songs. I think you should always make new songs as well. And master them, spend the hours to create an outstanding arrangement. Find the songs that fit your voice and your playing
What does this have to do with jam sessions? I don't know i guess i am a weirdo
Hope someone benefits from this discussion in any way
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Reminds me of why I hate the term "chord melody." Or as piano players call it, "playing the fucking piano."
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Whatever floats your boat man Originally Posted by mokapot
I'll try to express what I originally came here to talk about. I couldn't possibly learn a hundred tunes because I only believe in mastering them, playing them with originality. It's only through learning the lyrics and the melody very well, learning it in different keys, trying to play in one position of the neck all the way through, changing the rhythm, all these things that help me really internalize the song... that I have come to enjoy these jazz tunes as much as any other song. I make my own songs and learn a lot of rock songs, blues, soul, anything I might like and anything I find I can master and make into something of my own.
Now if you can learn a hundred jazz songs, great. If you can do it in a different way from what I do, great. I like to make any piece of music my own. I'm not saying that you aren't doing that but to me its a must if I am to find motivation to practice them more than I do something like a david bowie song, or a john mayer song.
I agree that you should always learn new songs. I think you should always make new songs as well. And master them, spend the hours to create an outstanding arrangement. Find the songs that fit your voice and your playing
What does this have to do with jam sessions? I don't know i guess i am a weirdo Hope someone benefits from this discussion in any way
May I ask what your aims are as a player? I mean in concrete terms, 'I want to play my own music with a band', 'I'm happy to have it as a hobby', 'I want to be a busy sideman' etc
Also do you want to immerse yourself in the jazz tradition, or do you just fancy grabbing the odd lick here and there and doing the instrumental fusion thang (nothing wrong with that btw) I'm taking it that the answer is more the latter. Whatever dude, just follow your muse. We are hardcore jazz guys here, well mostly.
I mean for example I don't don't give a flying **** about John Mayer, but I know many do (no disrespect intended, he seems a capable musician) but then I live in a weird jazz bubble where everyone is obsessed with Pasquale grasso, lage Lund etc :-) so that obviously affects my decisions as a musician....
But I don't see jazz as some club you have to gain entry to. I mean there are plenty here who haven't checked out the whole 100 year history, and that's cool.
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I guess its something like the 'I want to play my own music with a band' except I also like covers and solo/duo gigs. I don't want it to be just a hobby, whatever that means, time will tell. Originally Posted by christianm77
As for the jazz tradition question its probably the latter I do listen to a lot of swing, jazz and modern stuff though. It's just that I dig how players like Julian Lage can play any style and make it into his own thing. I don't know what he is, is he hardcore jazz to you?
Last edited by mokapot; 03-02-2017 at 11:58 AM.
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Ha, I always felt like treating chord melody as it's own style of playing was admitting that guitarists are in the special ed class of jazz or something. Wow you played the melody and hamony? Gold star! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Before mastery comes competence. Just getting heads and basic progressions right. Originally Posted by mokapot
I spent some time looking at Carol Kaye's site, and was interested in her take on learning jazz. She is pretty rabidly anti-CST, and calls it teaching people "note scales". In short, she thinks it a dead end and time waster, and thinks people should really take a chord-tone and chordal progression approach to learning tunes, licks and devices, harmonic movement, and general musicianship.
She asserts that a lot of the misplaced (in her opinion) modern jazz teaching derives from post-50's pop music which by and large, is not grounded in solidly constructed tunes with interesting chord progressions. Before she did studio work, she played big band and bop guitar, and said that a lot of 50's and 60's rock n' roll and pop required many of the jazz-trained studio guys to "dumb down".
Now, her opinion may be a bit polemical and aggressively stated, but her teaching stuff seems to emphasize a lot of "moves" or "devices" that, in her view, one would learn from studying a good number of tunes, and which were developed by players with that mind-set, training and outlook.
So there is the solid possibility that looking at a small number of tunes mean you're limiting yourself without even realizing it. In life, in general, it's not what you know, that hurts you, it's what you don't know...and sometimes find out, after the fact, when it's too late to do anything about it.
Having said that, I think it's possible, once you know a bunch of devices and "moves" to work them through a small number of tunes. BUT you might get to this more effectively, by looking at more tunes. And you need to know these "devices" and "moves" to begin with: I find these more effectively learned, in context, in an actual tune. Also true with just simple chords: Minor maj 7 chords: "Nica's Dream" and "Harlem Nocturne". Dom. 7th with sharp 5 (or maybe flat 6): "A Train", etc.
For e.g. David Baker has an Aebersold volume on learning tunes. He discusses learning tunes, and observes that AABA, is a common form. He notes that many A sections start on the tonic. He then lists 12 different common harmonic formula for these: I vi ii V7; I VI7 ii7 V7; I flat VII flat III flat II, etc. It's probably possible to take a standard tune in one of these forms, and re-harmonize, and maybe get to some, but not all of these other forms. But it might be simpler to just find an e.g. of the other song form.
Also Ralph Patt's website has a typology of tunes based on "Plain Vanilla" changes. Powerful stuff, if one could learn all these.Last edited by goldenwave77; 03-02-2017 at 12:46 PM.
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It does not have much to do with jam sessions, or at least not jazz jams at which people mainly step up on stage, call a tune, and others then play it with them. i guess you could try handing out a chart of your arrangement of "Space Oddity" and some guys might dig it. But for the most part, I think people will think your space ship has lost its way. Originally Posted by mokapot
(snip) ...
What does this have to do with jam sessions? I don't know i guess i am a weirdo Hope someone benefits from this discussion in any way
John
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The idea of trying to learn 100 tunes from a list of standards fills me with dread.
Even if I was just trying to learn to sing the melodies would be challenging. A lot of tunes have similarities which, for me, can make it difficult to remember a melody accurately. It helps if you grew up listening to the tunes, the way an earlier generation of jazz players did.
Even for tunes I've learned, if I don't play them for an extended period, I tend to forget them. It's much easier to remember tunes which I play regularly.
And, I have a feeling it wouldn't help that much in a jam. Pretty soon, somebody is going to call a tune that isn't on your list of 100. Or, maybe you know it, but as your blood pressure rises on the bandstand, it's harder to remember the tune. Or it gets called in a key that's unfamiliar and you have to add transposition to your burden.
And, then, there's the time it would take to keep drilling yourself on 100 tunes so you don't forget them.
My impression, which is based on private, not public jams, is that there's a core group of tunes that it would be embarrassing not to know. Other than that, just pull out your IRealPro.
Here is my list of tunes that, if you don't know them, other musicians might roll their eyes a bit. Obviously, there are going to be a lot of opinions.
All Blues
ATTYA
Autumn Leaves
Bye Bye Blackbird
Blue Bossa
Days of Wine and Roses (maybe -- I wasn't sure about this one)
Four
Girl From Ipanema
Green Dolphin Street
Miss Jones
Just Friends
Night and Day
Out of Nowhere
Satin Doll
Stella
A Train
There Will Never Be Another You
Wave
Blues
Rhythm Changes.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-02-2017 at 11:13 PM.
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I'm at 100+ tunes and have been playing jazz for about 6 years. I have a very busy day job. It is very doable. My next target is 150 tunes, and eventually I'll get to 300. No doubt about it.
I don't like learning tunes from a list of standards - I find it works better to choose them from my listening or playing experiences. I listen to an album and hear a tune I like, so I learn it. Or someone calls a tune I don't know and we play it, I like it, so I learn it. Or someone wants to play a certain tune on a gig - if I have time, I'll learn it but if not then I'll learn it eventually.
The past 6 months have been the busiest professional (non music) months of my life, but I've still learned about 15 tunes plus one composition, and can play these tunes in most keys.
Just saying...anyone can do it. It gets a LOT easier the more tunes you know.
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I've probably forgotten more tunes than I know
For me, it's not as much about knowing hundreds of tunes cold...it's the process of doing which tunes my ear. So because I've learned 150-200 tunes in the past 10 years or so, I have a "toolkit" in my head, so to speak. I can get through most functional type tunes because I can hear 'em. I ain't gonna pick up on a Wayne Shorter tune "in the moment" yet, but my ear's getting better from just doing...over and over.
I mean, if you can hear I and V and can figure out what's not diatonic (even if it's just "whoa, shit, lay out on that part!"), you can hang. By the seat of your damn pants, but...
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Someone's going to call a tune that's not on you list a lot sooner if that list only has 20 tunes on it. If you are only playing in private jam sessions with the same regular people then you can agree on a smaller list of tunes to know. If you are going to a variety of sessions with good players even 100 tunes is not enough. The good news it gets way easier to learn tunes the more you know. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I would add: Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Body and Soul
My Romance
My Funny Valentine
My Foolish Heart
There is No Greater Love
Someday My Prince Will Come
Solar
So What/Impressions
I'll Remember April
Black Orpheus
Not knowing these would probably draw a stink-eye, too.
There's probably also some minimum collection of bop heads (an admitted weakness of mine), like maybe Ornithology, Billie's Bounce, Scrapple from the Apple, Yardbird Suite, Night in Tunisia.
All with the caveat that "oh yeah, I kind of remember that one; lemme take a quick peek at the changes" counts as knowing the tune, especially if there's horn player.
John
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