The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I met a coworker's cousin who created a Jazz Guitar CD using his friends Pro Tools. He has been trying the sell the CD but is not having much luck.

    I suggested a few ideas, which he promptly turned down. He told me:

    1) He did not want to join this guitar forum (like I suggested) or any other forum just to sell his CD. He called it, in so many words, disingenuous and also said he was not kissing anyone's #@#$@ to sell his stuff.

    2) He did not want me to buy one to "support" him. He said to him it was like a handout. If I liked it, buy it otherwise he said he was not a "charity case."

    3) While he did like playing with others, he had not found anyone that he could bond with enough outside of the playing.

    4) He did not have any money to pay an agent or music production group.

    Everything I could think of he shot down.

    If any of you have any ideas how he can sell his CD, and "keep his integrity" as he put it, please let me know so I can pass it on?

    He actually sounds pretty good and is 22 years old.

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  3. #2

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    Bandcamp seems to be the trendy place nowadays. I don't know the terms or cost, if any, but I see lots of artists using it.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Bandcamp seems to be the trendy place nowadays. I don't know the terms or cost, if any, but I see lots of artists using it.
    Thanks, I forgot about bandcamp. Several musicians that I know use it rather effectively.

    He was open to having a way for someone to sample his music. Also, he said he did have Soundcloud but it did not seem to help him much.

  5. #4

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    Tell him to book as many gigs as possible and sell it at the gigs. Believe it or not, people still are buying cds if they like what they hear, at least in NYC. That's the only way I sold any.

  6. #5

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    Well, based on your review of him alone, I would not buy his CD just out of principle, despite how good it may be. He sounds like a punk kid who's less mature than my 16 year old.

    No thanks.

  7. #6

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    Fuck him, then.

    Tell him he'll need to get his head out of his ass and accept the help of everyone who's willing, make every connection, smile, nod, make friends and work his hustle.

    The magic CD sale fairy doesn't exist.

    Tell him I said this, word for word. It's mean. It needs to be.

    You don't sell without making your hustle. If you're worried about being disengenous you don't really want to sell anything.

  8. #7
    Does he have a non-music job to pay the bills? Does he feel like he's a "charity case" or "kissing up" by working at Wal-Mart or whatever? He needs to get himself together philosophically re. making some money in music or make enough at something else to not CARE.

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  9. #8

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    Hmmm... I would NOT consider myself an expert in this arena, but I do have a little bit of experience. I'm about to release my 2nd album. My first album I did NOTHING to promote. I used kickstarter to fund it, so I sold a handful through that. Than I promoted the hell out of my CD release show and sold a handful more there. Still... two handfuls of CD's sold means I still took a loss on that project.

    No matter how incredible of a player someone is, and no matter how amazing a CD is, if a musician isn't working full time to support themselves and their craft, they're only going to be able to take a loss on so many projects (CDs, gigs, etc). I'm not even going to say how much I spent to make my upcoming album. 9 musicians, 2 days in an nyc studio, 4 days worth of editing and mixing, mastering, hiring a professional visual artist to make 7 pieces of unique art and designing the packaging itself, plus physical printing and production. You guys can do the math.

    Ultimately, sales and promotion techniques are nothing and meaningless without the right mindset. Honestly, it's a lot like trying to become a great improvisor by learning scales and arpeggios, but refusing to listen to the other musicians or leave room for them to add their ideas and to use them and learn from them. It seems literally pointless to me to discuss scales with someone who's unwilling to listen to their bandmates and accept ideas. It seems equally pointless to discuss marketing, promotion, and sales ideas with someone who's not interested in connecting with people and getting outside their comfort level.

    The only thing I could recommend is for him to read a couple of books about business and sales... but like good, inspiring, motivational books. Like maybe Gary Vaynerchuk. He's got some great stuff. Books, youtube videos, etc.

    I just listened to the audiobook version of "The Thank You Economy"... that's a good one.

    The world doesn't owe any of us anything... and nobody is sitting around waiting patiently for us to finish our albums so they can run over and start throwing money at us. If we want to sell our music, we have to connect with people in some way. And generally that means finding ways to connect with them THE WAY THEY WANT... not the way we want.

    I learned that the hard way with my first album. Doing a lot differently with my upcoming release. A LOT.

  10. #9

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    You're right...all of you. There's always a rationale for not doing something. String a few of those together and you won't do ANYTHING. This from 10 years of club gigs and all the guys that came and went...including me. In The end your career is what you did, not what you didn't do.

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  11. #10

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    I went to HS with the guy who handled Brittany What's Her Name, and Taylor Thing-A-Ma-Jig. (You can tell how much I like these artists, but they are undeniably huge.)

    I've talked to him a few times over the years, and once asked him how he judges potential new talent. He said audience reaction is the key thing. If it's not happening there, it's not happening, period.

    So how does the audience react to this guy's playing?

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    I went to HS with the guy who handled Brittany What's Her Name, and Taylor Thing-A-Ma-Jig. (You can tell how much I like these artists, but they are undeniably huge.)

    I've talked to him a few times over the years, and once asked him how he judges potential new talent. He said audience reaction is the key thing. If it's not happening there, it's not happening, period.

    So how does the audience react to this guy's playing?
    I was told that he goes around town playing in the coffee shops, restaurants, jams, and special events. I don't know that he is generating much of a buzz.

    It is going to be an interesting conversation with my coworker when I next see him...

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Does he have a non-music job to pay the bills? Does he feel like he's a "charity case" or "kissing up" by working at Wal-Mart or whatever? He needs to get himself together philosophically re. making some money in music or make enough at something else to not CARE.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
    He lives with his parents and is not working although he does take classes from college time to time. He is an interesting fellow. A bedroom player who learned over the years to play very well.

  14. #13

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    Thanks for the suggestions. There are some great ideas and real-world examples.

    Maybe they will help person who is trying to make a living in this business.

    It comes down to what has been said constantly on this forum. You must be able to "hustle." He is going to get a reality check on dealing with people and conducting business.

    I think its going to be very interesting know this young man.

  15. #14

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    Guy sounds like a loser.

    God helps those that help themselves.

    Don't push a rock.

    A Young Jazz Guitarist wants tips on selling his CD-sysiphus-jpeg
    Last edited by Drumbler; 01-24-2017 at 09:04 AM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    He lives with his parents and is not working although he does take classes from college time to time. He is an interesting fellow. A bedroom player who learned over the years to play very well.
    Perfect. You just sealed the deal.

    His parents need to start charging him rent (which I'm sure they don't do), and then we'll see if his tune changes.

  17. #16

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    How hard could it be?
    While I was typing response my ISP subscription expired, so I had to walk 500m at -10C, pay for 2 months in advance and type it all over again!
    That's how hard it it is!

    As opposed to Mr. Beaumont, I totally support presented attitude.
    I'd say though, nothing will come his way by it self. He has to work on it. He should not change the attitude, but has to be aware it could have impact on both quantity and quality of chances he might be getting, if any.

    Yes, selling CDs on gigs, he will probably sell some, although, IMO, selling hard copy CDs era is well behind us. Independent artist would probably sell more vinyl than CDs, for the time that ridiculous hype is around.
    For contemporary independent artists, CDs are promo material they have to make and finance, in order to get some kind of gig, anything they appear being able to do well, as presented on that CD. And not only for independent. The other day, someone posted, Elton John got 4 million $ for a wedding party gig. It's all based on first records he made back then.
    The gig is not only be an artisan, performing artist, play an instrument, entertain ... but also compose, produce, record (audio and ...), mix, master ... Unfortunately, place is overcrowded, supply is way over demand.

    BandCamp and other varieties of download/ streaming/ online schemes ... they may work if you advertise a lot, ie. give enough samples for people to get to know you and understand you so much to decide they want some more, always taking care there is some more left.

    For one bad example, I have BandCamp page, but I do not advertise it, except in some of my YT clips there is a link to that place. Nobody ever clicked that link. Even if someone went there, all the music I offer there is 100% free streaming. There is an option for payment, but you get it for free anyway, no obligations. Further, all those tunes are already in my YT clips. BTW it is all techno, so Jazzers should not bother.

    So, the tip for selling CDs would be: do not sell them, treat them as an expense and as an investment.

    EDIT: One more thing ... I do not believe in "preaching to the choir", ie. selling musician's music on musicians forums.
    Last edited by Vladan; 01-24-2017 at 11:31 AM.

  18. #17

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    Yes .. +1 on the loser theory.

    Sounds like he has enough in himself, not very good at gauging how others feel and operating on principles. Also living with his parents removes the need to actually support himself .. and it also may be throwing a spanner in how much he can interact with his peers (and not to mention girls). Who knows? .. Im guessing

    I doubt very much his behavior can change without an external chok of some sorts. In my case it was living with a bats*** crazy girlfriend.

  19. #18

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    Lotsa luck Junior

  20. #19

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    The idealism of youth. It's a noble impulse to want to act with integrity and young people sometimes rail against what they perceive as even a slight breach of that ideal. In a way, I admire that impulse although it appears to be running contrary to his other objective - to sell his music.
    You might want to point out to him that, if he wants to take a stand on principle against "selling out", then that's fine, but then his desire to sell his CD at all seems to contradict that stance. If he actually does want to sell his CD, then he has to do what is necessary to sell his CD. That's not "selling out" - that's the way human beings survive. There's nothing wrong with displaying your CD in places that the CD is likely to have interested listeners - like this forum as an example. And there's nothing wrong with accepting help from friends who appreciate his ability and want to see him succeed - the willingness to help one another is one of the qualities that actually makes the human race able to survive and prosper.
    Maybe he is insecure about his product and is resisting having it heard?

  21. #20

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    From your description it looks like he's not going to sell it on the gigs too... if he did not want to sign in on forum even booking a gig for the sake of CD sales would be real ass-licking ... besides how would he do it? Just put a box with CDs and moneybox and turn away every a potencial buyer asks something? Otherwise it would like ass-licking too...

    Seriously... I thought this kind of recording is not really for direct sales... (if you're not a street player in touristic cities) but about promoting...

    It's like publishing your book on your home printer and then trying to sell it... what would you do? Sell it in a subway?

    For real sales you need some persons to get interested... just sending the CD to recording companies and promoting agencies, club owners maybe, some players he likes whatever... even if he just gets some feedback it would something.

    I had friends who made records on their own and did not make efforts to sell it but usually they did not ask how to sell it... they just shared for free maybe sometimes hoping that someone will notice it.

    And to be a good salesman and keep honesty and integrity... well I belive it is possible...

    I think it is possible to be in it without 'hustling' - but you should be naturally very communicative, very open, very compassionate and at the same time very strong person...
    I met a few salesmen like this...
    For money or love? These guys would never say: for money. Only for love... they turn every deal into a relationship, into care, into human thing.
    but it is kind of a natural gift.

    But hardly it's this kid's case... so probably he will have to find one.

  22. #21

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    Jimmy Bruno has said in interviews that he's basically given up on CDs, people have moved on to streaming and downloads, and don't buy CDs. If he can't sell them, who can? I haven't bought many in the past several years, maybe two or three, far less than one per year. I don't even have a CD player handy, nor an optical drive on my computer. Why bother when all the music I care about is readily available to stream?

    It seems ironic that Bucky Pizzarelli gets slagged for making a little money, and this kid gets slagged for not doing it. Seems we like to eat our own.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Jimmy Bruno has said in interviews that he's basically given up on CDs, people have moved on to streaming and downloads, and don't buy CDs. If he can't sell them, who can? I haven't bought many in the past several years, maybe two or three, far less than one per year. I don't even have a CD player handy, nor an optical drive on my computer. Why bother when all the music I care about is readily available to stream?

    It seems ironic that Bucky Pizzarelli gets slagged for making a little money, and this kid gets slagged for not doing it. Seems we like to eat our own.
    Other's have said that they sell some. They sell until they don't. Maybe different from place to place, but if someone has cash and likes you /wants to support you, there's a very real difference between handing you a $20 versus buying your product, in the form of hardcopy CD, from you. Feels very different, both on the receiving end and the giving end.

    I think you're talking about different things when you talk about a comment from someone like Jimmy Bruno versus a local selling a little product. For Bruno, it is probably legitimate to say it's not doing anything for him, but that's very proportional to all that he does. Perspective is important.

    Many of us who WOULD buy a CD on-site aren't going to get around to it if we have to go all the way home and log on to something to download tracks or pay on our phone etc. Also, there are all kinds of degrees of investment in producing CDs. If you've never done it, self-produced print-on-demand, or at least very low inventory, probably makes a lot of sense, just to have something for if people ask. If you're moving those, maybe you're ready to have some professionally produced. Jimmy Bruno isn't dealing with things at that entry-level, nor should he, but that shouldn't necessarily be the beginning reference point for newbies starting out hustling.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-24-2017 at 11:03 AM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Thanks for the suggestions. There are some great ideas and real-world examples.

    Maybe they will help person who is trying to make a living in this business.

    It comes down to what has been said constantly on this forum. You must be able to "hustle." He is going to get a reality check on dealing with people and conducting business.

    I think its going to be very interesting know this young man
    .
    Have him read "Careers in Jazz" by Bill Anschell. A little over the top, but it has a lot of truth in it.

    If he won't read it, then maybe his parents should.

    They're probably not doing him any favors. Sometimes the really good friend is the one who tells you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.

  25. #24

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    [QUOTE=sgosnell;734359]Jimmy Bruno has said in interviews that he's basically given up on CDs, people have moved on to streaming and downloads, and don't buy CDs. If he can't sell them, who can? I haven't bought many in the past several years, maybe two or three, far less than one per year. I don't even have a CD player handy, nor an optical drive on my computer. Why bother when all the music I care about is readily available to stream?]


    This IS the point

  26. #25

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    I recently saw Joe Locke (the vibes player) and after the gig he had boxes of his recent CDs for sale. He was friendly and chatted to all the people who were interested, and signed the CDs if they wanted. He shifted loads of them.