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  1. #51

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    I'm wondering at what stage would an amateur start seriously securing the rights to any songs/tunes they wrote? Obviously if you were Oasis or something you'd do it, or the Beatles etc etc, but the majority of us scribbling out some tune aren't going to bother.

    Please note that if Cabbage Stew ever turns up on a Rosenwinkle CD there'll be trouble!!!!

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I'm wondering at what stage would an amateur start seriously securing the rights to any songs/tunes they wrote? Obviously if you were Oasis or something you'd do it, or the Beatles etc etc, but the majority of us scribbling out some tune aren't going to bother.

    Please note that if Cabbage Stew ever turns up on a Rosenwinkle CD there'll be trouble!!!!
    SGAE picked up that one of my originals had been released on a compilation CD (without my knowledge or consent) and was being sold on another continent.

    If they'd only asked, I'd have been flattered - and delighted to donate it.
    Last edited by destinytot; 01-05-2017 at 09:03 AM. Reason: spelling

  4. #53

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    And presumably you'd have got royalties too, which you did not.


    (One day I'm going to fill out the Reason button as speling)

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    SGAE picked up that one of my originals had been released on a compilation CD (without my knowledge or consent) and was being sold on another continent.

    If they'd only asked, I'd have been flattered - and delighted to donate it.
    I am sorry to hear about this, DT.

    I guess I should not be surprised that even some of our forum members have had their intellectual property taken and used without their permission.

    Jack Zucker's detailed book on Jazz was put up on Scrib'd without his permission or knowledge. I am sure there are others.

    A thief is a thief is a thief, although I realize some do not really mean any harm.

    I remember a priest telling me that a hungry man has a right to steal to feed his family. Oh what a debate that was at my job!


  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I'm wondering at what stage would an amateur start seriously securing the rights to any songs/tunes they wrote? Obviously if you were Oasis or something you'd do it, or the Beatles etc etc, but the majority of us scribbling out some tune aren't going to bother.

    Please note that if Cabbage Stew ever turns up on a Rosenwinkle CD there'll be trouble!!!!
    If you are playing any gigs or making a recording I think it's worth doing.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    I am sorry to hear about this, DT.

    I guess I should not be surprised that even some of our forum members have had their intellectual property taken and used without their permission.

    Jack Zucker's detailed book on Jazz was put up on Scrib'd without his permission or knowledge. I am sure there are others.
    Personally on this forum when it comes to jazz 'concepts' I don't think I have any intellectual property. I research other people's ideas, try to give credit.

    It's a tricky one. I don't want to give too much info out...

    My compositions are another matter tho, and if I wrote a book I'd be hating on scribd...:

    A thief is a thief is a thief, although I realize some do not really mean any harm.

    I remember a priest telling me that a hungry man has a right to steal to feed his family. Oh what a debate that was at my job!

    It's a constant struggle. A lot of people don't realise that it's not a victimless crime. And this isn't about stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family, it's people being thoughtless usually, sometimes entitled.

    For instance Nigel Price (well known U.K. Jazz guitarist) is constantly having to get people to take down album tracks of his on youtube. A common story, but many musicians I think let it go. Nigel is right imo to police it, but it's an endless task.

    People just have no idea of how musicians earn income or how marginal these streams can be.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-05-2017 at 10:41 AM.

  8. #57

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    Humans are selfish idiots.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Humans are selfish idiots.
    This is true. We are selfish idiots by nature.

    Anyone with kids knows we have to be taught to be unselfish.

    Some never learn, either.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    I am sorry to hear about this, DT.
    No skin off my nose. I'm only interested in selling the CD-book at theatres - and playing with my dream band. (Milkshakes all round! )

    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    I remember a priest telling me that a hungry man has a right to steal to feed his family. Oh what a debate that was at my job!

    Of all the eliciting techniques used to elicit utterances from students, my favourite is... the Pause. Sometimes students' self-correction seems to take forever - but they eventually produce the answer. And they do so without direct help or intervention.

    My point is that people go to great lengths to avoid thinking for themselves (which is what I mean by
    "I Drink Your Milkshake" may well be the norm).

    Compassion's one thing, responsibility another.


  11. #60

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    In a wider sense all our attempts to control information and police intellectual property rights are doomed to failure by technology.

    That said, it's not just musicians who are being put out of a job by machines!

    So, the issue is, the world has changed, but people are still wedded to this idea of dong productive work in exchange for pay.

  12. #61

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    Seems kind of like a strange warning.

    If this guy has this kind of thief like mentality he can simply just go on youtube or soundcloud and listen to about three billion pieces of music, find things he likes, make variations of them, put them on his record. And essentially I think that's a lot of what making music is anyway.

    If I was putting out albums I'd love to hang with a lot of musicians and hear about their processes and check out their ideas, and I'd probably be excited to share mine.

    Then the line between influence and theft is hard to draw, legally, artistically, and philosophical.

    An acquaintance of mine recorded this song, check out the opening:



    Then I believe was seeking legal action against Justin Bieber for this:



    I hear it, of course, but the response to her campaign was mostly "good luck, lady..."

  13. #62

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    Sounds like a cop to me. But then, "God is on the side of the big battalions" (of lawyers").
    Last edited by citizenk74; 01-05-2017 at 04:31 PM. Reason: Puntuation
    Best regards, k

  14. #63

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  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Angels and pin heads....
    Best regards, k

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    people are still wedded to this idea of dong productive work in exchange for pay.
    Well, that may have everything to do with needing to feed their families and pay the bills :-)

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Well, that may have everything to do with needing to feed their families and pay the bills :-)
    Society wide I mean. Where does this need derive? There is no shortage of food on the supermarket shelves, for instance.

    Of course, supermarkets have been known to destroy their unsold food rather than have it be eaten out of the bins by Freegans and the homeless. That should tell us an important lesson about the state of the modern western world. Scarcity has to be manufactured.

    (Perhaps if we lived in a truly free market, the cost of food would be near zero. Personally I'm not up for the experiment...)

    There's no reason in fact for society to function like this. But that's the way society functioned during the Industrial Age, so that's way everyone thinks it has to function. It's increasingly a social convention.

    And so we have this absurd situation with the division between rich (who derive little of their income through actual employment) and everyone else (who are finding work increasingly scarce, apart from those who can find various forms of busy work.)

    And of course you have the technologists who are busy making everyone else redundant.... That's where the jobs are, of course, but not everyone is able to study STEM subjects to the high level required.

    This has been predicted for a long time. Keynes was thinking about this stuff back in the '30s - he understood advances in technology would leave people with not a lot left to do. He had lots of '30s utopian ideas about it. In fact the transition to a new society is unlikely to be smooth or ideal.

    Which ties in of course with Trump and Brexit. And while globalisation, immigration and outsourcing usually gets the blame for scarcity of jobs, people don't tend to blame automation, the internet and mobile phone apps.

    What do you say to a veteran trade unionist or someone who has always worked in, say, steel? They don't want to know about post-industrial age of zero marginal cost and Universal Basic Income. It's Science Fiction to them. Thing is, we live in Science Fiction, we just haven't woken up to it yet.

    How this relates to Musicians is also complex. We take pride in working hard for a living.

    (BTW there's an awful lot I am overlooking, but it's an interesting perspective.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-05-2017 at 10:26 PM.

  18. #67

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    I hope you feel better now, Christian. That was quite a rant.

    You touched on the many things that are wrong with the world. I don't know what government or economic system will ever change it.

    I accept it as being part of our nature. Too many people "want it all."

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    I hope you feel better now, Christian. That was quite a rant.

    You touched on the many things that are wrong with the world. I don't know what government or economic system will ever change it.

    I accept it as being part of our nature. Too many people "want it all."
    Not a rant exactly.... Didn't feel ranty when I wrote it, more thoughtful.

    Funny thing is, I think we are closer to having it all then we ever have been, this is an era of great potential as well as huge problems.

    Modern technology is extraordinary. It's changing everything in ways we barely grasp. But modern politics is in the realm of fear, looking backwards on both sides of the political spectrum.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-05-2017 at 10:38 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Not a rant exactly.... Didn't feel ranty when I wrote it, more thoughtful.

    Funny thing is, I think we are closer to having it all then we ever have been, this is an era of great potential as well as huge problems.

    Modern technology is extraordinary. It's changing everything in ways we barely grasp. But modern politics is in the realm of fear, looking backwards on both sides of the political spectrum.
    Fear. That is what I see being used very well, as it has been for centuries.

    And with all the available lines of communication out there, it can be funneled to everyone with less effort and expense.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    There's no reason in fact for society to function like this. But that's the way society functioned during the Industrial Age, so that's way everyone thinks it has to function. It's increasingly a social convention.
    I know what you were saying. It's true that we're conditioned to be wage slaves and in terms of society etc, although it may not apply to everybody.

    Work is a double-edged sword. It's good to be employed, have something to do and earn one's living. On the other hand so many people do meaningless things and waste their lives in a daily grind or exploit work as a means of self-aggrandisement, and so on. The answer's probably education. It usually is :-)

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    the line between influence and theft is hard to draw
    Influence, my foot, it's a direct lift. Same notes, same order, same pitch, same breathy delivery, same idea. Who are we kidding? They lose, she wins. Pay the girl.

    Probably wasn't Bieber himself though, more likely the producer/production team.

    What's particularly wrong with it is that it's irrelevant to Bieber's success. He doesn't need a few seconds' musical blip to boost his career. They could have issued that song without the steal and nobody would notice or care.

    But it matters to the girl. A lot. Apologise and pay her. And remove the steal.

    So there!

  23. #72

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    Check out the article I linked about the dispute, interesting stuff.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Society wide I mean. Where does this need derive? There is no shortage of food on the supermarket shelves, for instance.

    Of course, supermarkets have been known to destroy their unsold food rather than have it be eaten out of the bins by Freegans and the homeless. That should tell us an important lesson about the state of the modern western world. Scarcity has to be manufactured.

    (Perhaps if we lived in a truly free market, the cost of food would be near zero. Personally I'm not up for the experiment...)

    There's no reason in fact for society to function like this. But that's the way society functioned during the Industrial Age, so that's way everyone thinks it has to function. It's increasingly a social convention.

    And so we have this absurd situation with the division between rich (who derive little of their income through actual employment) and everyone else (who are finding work increasingly scarce, apart from those who can find various forms of busy work.)

    And of course you have the technologists who are busy making everyone else redundant.... That's where the jobs are, of course, but not everyone is able to study STEM subjects to the high level required.

    This has been predicted for a long time. Keynes was thinking about this stuff back in the '30s - he understood advances in technology would leave people with not a lot left to do. He had lots of '30s utopian ideas about it. In fact the transition to a new society is unlikely to be smooth or ideal.

    Which ties in of course with Trump and Brexit. And while globalisation, immigration and outsourcing usually gets the blame for scarcity of jobs, people don't tend to blame automation, the internet and mobile phone apps.

    What do you say to a veteran trade unionist or someone who has always worked in, say, steel? They don't want to know about post-industrial age of zero marginal cost and Universal Basic Income. It's Science Fiction to them. Thing is, we live in Science Fiction, we just haven't woken up to it yet.

    How this relates to Musicians is also complex. We take pride in working hard for a living.

    (BTW there's an awful lot I am overlooking, but it's an interesting perspective.)
    I don't read this as a rant. And don't get me started on economics. I'd have to find another forum.

  25. #74

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    Obviously "rant" was too inaccurate a term. Sorry for wronging you in that way Christian.

    Whenever I see our discussions go off into personal thoughts and observations on larger issues, I normally call that a "rant." And these rants are normally borne of what I call righteous anger. But that is the term the people in my circle use freely and is obviously seen differently by people in Christian and Mr.Cee's circle.

    I will have to watch use of that term in the future. You good folks might have spared me from a future misunderstanding although these days, it has been pretty calm on the forum. There aren't as many folks going after other members like it was when I first joined.

    My use (misuse?) of "rant" kind of reminds me of my former use of the term "anal retentive," or the short version, "anal." Back in my mechanic days, I worked around a bunch of blue-collar guys who used that term freely. Well, you can probably guess how I inserted my foot in my mouth with that one while away from the job, actually while out on a date.

    "Know the rules of the jungle that you are in..."

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Check out the article I linked about the dispute, interesting stuff.
    I did, and others. Clever lawyer crap. Dissembling, I think they call it. Makes your blood boil :-)

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    folks going after other members
    They better not come after me, they'll have their work cut out. I've got the ignore button!

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    musicians who are being put out of a job by machines!
    Interesting, that. They might make a machine that'll imitate your or my playing but it'll only copy and rearrange stuff already done. But we've got more where that came from and it can't copy that. Ever.

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    Obviously "rant" was too inaccurate a term. Sorry for wronging you in that way Christian.

    Whenever I see our discussions go off into personal thoughts and observations on larger issues, I normally call that a "rant." And these rants are normally borne of what I call righteous anger. But that is the term the people in my circle use freely and is obviously seen differently by people in Christian and Mr.Cee's circle.

    I will have to watch use of that term in the future. You good folks might have spared me from a future misunderstanding although these days, it has been pretty calm on the forum. There aren't as many folks going after other members like it was when I first joined.

    My use (misuse?) of "rant" kind of reminds me of my former use of the term "anal retentive," or the short version, "anal." Back in my mechanic days, I worked around a bunch of blue-collar guys who used that term freely. Well, you can probably guess how I inserted my foot in my mouth with that one while away from the job, actually while out on a date.

    "Know the rules of the jungle that you are in..."
    I've been accused of ranting myself and need to be aware that there are different degrees and flavors.

    Not in Texas, but in Calif women do use the term you mention. But yeah, it does seem to be more of a blue collar thing.
    I wouldn't break it out in TX though or anywhere else for that matter. And I'm an expert at street profanity. People from my place in time wrote the book on it.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I know what you were saying. It's true that we're conditioned to be wage slaves and in terms of society etc, although it may not apply to everybody.

    Work is a double-edged sword. It's good to be employed, have something to do and earn one's living. On the other hand so many people do meaningless things and waste their lives in a daily grind or exploit work as a means of self-aggrandisement, and so on. The answer's probably education. It usually is :-)
    Work and sport - yuck! It took me years to learn to think about them - and hence love them - on my own terms.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Interesting, that. They might make a machine that'll imitate your or my playing but it'll only copy and rearrange stuff already done. But we've got more where that came from and it can't copy that. Ever.
    I agree, but there's been so much stuff already done that the game would be saturated fast if that sort of thing becomes the norm. Your typical listener is happy with a very limited number of grooves, licks, harmonies, songforms etc. There's enough material out there for a million years. I'm not too big a Hip Hop nut but I can handle it. I've noticed listening to more of it recently that, to my ear, the vocals can be good to great but the instrumental parts are often uninteresting. Not all of it. Some are brilliant. Your typical listener doesn't really care about music in the same way a lot of us do. They're in it to bolster their own philosophical or lifestyle positions more than a true musical listening experience.

  32. #81
    Its happened to me in the 80s . Basically a jam in a room - didnt get on the record didnt any composing credits but later was given a bag with a thousand quid in in presence of bands lawyer .
    Took it - declared it to taxman !
    Record was Platinum seller in France alone and to this day brings royalties to a psuedo socialist do gooder
    Watch Out !!!

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    on my own terms.
    Me too :-)

  34. #83

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    Just as long as nobody steals my posts here I'll be happy.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee View Post
    Your typical listener
    What's a typical listener? And do they actually listen or is it just background? Background not just being noises off but the more insistent noise of their own thoughts.

  36. #85

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    Interesting... I wrote and used to jam on a song when I could barely play that I did not like. I partied hard for a weekend with a popular band from Jacksonville, FL and was jam'n it on the guys guitar rig. Les Paul guitar with nice Marshal stack, ect..ect... The guy casually asked me if he could play the song after I went back to Ohio. Feeling honored I said of course and that I did not even like the song. Well a few years later it was all over pop rock radio. A few of my close friends knew it was mine. I just admitted I gave it to the guy and did not even like it.

    Such is life. I still pretty much hate the pop, brain dead song. I had to admit they produced it well though.

    PS: They changed the lyrics and changed the arrangement. But pretty much all the guitar parts were left as I came up with them.
    Last edited by FuseHead; 01-29-2017 at 04:40 PM.