The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    The idea of being a jazz musician may be self-limiting. I've made a living playing music for 50 years, but I haven't done a "jazz" gig for 10 years, since they actually pay less than they did in 1975 (in real terms). However, my jazz training and playing set the stage for a great career backing stars, arranging for singers, being music director for organizations, playing solo gigs, doing pit work, recording sessions, and eventually producing both live and recorded projects (including presenting the MJQ, Gary Burton, John Faddis with McCoy Tyner, Stan Getz, Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis, Jim Hall, Kenny Burrell, etc., etc.), as well as teaching stints at NEC, Berklee and Wesleyan. It's a big world, and all the music I played included, strangely enough, the same 12 notes. Even now, in what is by any measure a lousy artistic economy, I am quite busy and completely musically satisfied. Having said that, I would not move back to New York City, since I learned how to create good work wherever I live, and New York players will come to me for good work.

    I guess the moral, such as it is, is that one can play plenty of jazz without having to be exclusively a jazz musician, and when a jazz musician plays other styles, it's often to the benefit of the music. I love to hire jazz musicians for commercial gigs, it makes the gig so much better, as long as they know that they won't be doing Inner Urge or Confirmation on that gig.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    My guess is (same as a few folks I knew in the Classical world and rock too), that some players who "making their living" playing jazz hail from families with deep pockets and this allows them to do what they want. They are pursuing their passion and are not truly dependent on earning a living. I have no problem with that at all. It has been said that "art does not exist without wealth" and it's true on many levels and in many ways.
    Pretty much the same thing with many national/international athletes, you can't compete at the world level if you can't train 8 hours a day, and you can't train 8 hours a day if you're holding down another job. Even "pros" who don't have million dollar contracts; you might be surprised how many are still in sports because of family money or a spouse that has a high paying job. I personally respect anyone who uses their wealth to allow them to follow a passion to accomplish something, as opposed to just buying sh*t because they can.
    Last edited by whiskey02; 08-16-2016 at 10:04 PM.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Yes, exactly. I was looking at this:

    https://www.suny.edu/smarttrack/tuition-and-fees/

    You can see that tuition is $11,920 plus $4,820 in indirect costs. That does not include rent, food, etc. Community college isn't far behind.

    EDIT: I see they added $3800 for a year's worth of rent and food. Is that a joke? Where can you pay rent and feed yourself for $320 a month? In any case, the point is made. This ain't no $10 a semester.
    What am I missing here?

    2016-17 Undergrad Tuition and fees only annual: $9,263

    http://www.albany.edu/studentaccount...l_07272016.pdf

    2016-17 Grad Tuition and fees only annual: $12,734

    http://www.albany.edu/studentaccount...ATES_Final.pdf

  5. #29

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    Ron, that's what guys I've known that made a living out of music always did, too. They taught lessons, did arranging, music director for organizations, church organist, instrument repair, whatever they could that had to do with music.

    To be a musician, you have to think like a small businessman. This is my weakness. Some people are good bosses, some people are good employees. I'm a good employee.

  6. #30

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    Apparently you are missing that the $12K figure (from SUNY, not making this up) includes an allowance of $3800 for "room and board" for the commuting student.

    The chart you show is actually MORE expensive.

    However, let's leave it at you are right. Four decades ago you paid for your college with spare change from your pocket walking chest deep in snow uphill --both ways. If it worked then, it must work today. These kids today need to pull their pants up, stop their yimmer-yamming and stay off your lawn! Dag-nabbit!

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    However, let's leave it at you are right. Four decades ago you paid for your college with spare change from your pocket walking chest deep in snow uphill --both ways. If it worked then, it must work today. These kids today need to pull their pants up, stop their yimmer-yamming and stay off your lawn! Dag-nabbit!
    no, 4 decades ago in-state tuition in Texas was very cheap. This was because the taxes from the oil money helped fund state universities. When the oil market crashed in the late 80s, the out of state tuition went way up, and a lot of the out of state students went away, too.

    when I got back from the Navy then and went back to study electrical engineering in 1994, my in-state tuition at North Texas (even without all the special fees from the school of music) was over 2 grand a semester and I had to take out a loan

    I paid my loan back at 8%, too (so you modern day student-loan crybabies are just breaking my heart)

    but we at North Texas had absolutely the best education for dirt cheap

    and it was really the oil money that made that possible. At the time, out of state tuition at NTSU was cheaper than in-state tuition in a lot of other states.

  8. #32

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    "back in the day" there were far more clubs to play at..Venice CA..you could almost walk to several clubs from each other..for under $10 you could hear a lot of very good live music..rock jazz and original stuff..all small clubs..on a good night you could feed yourself and buy some new strings..with luck you may even get some gigs at bigger clubs and string several of those together..do some studio work or teach..and actually pay the rent playing music..but it was not a day at the beach..it was work..don't miss a phone call..and don't be late for a audition, rehearsal or studio dates..

    when it started to change-mid/late 80's..I found finance management for wealthy folks was a way to pay the rent without losing sleep..and I still had time to play/study music..so I saved over 1/3 of my pay for years..just threw it in a big box bank..now today I can play music all day and not have to worry about paying the rent..the gigs are far fewer..but I am also far more selective..I don't HAVE to play Pop songs or Rock tributes to the Stones..I write my own stuff..and have some musicians to jam with..if we get some work..fine..if not..more time to practice..

    being a pro musician in a high cost city is a true test of dedication..there was a time I didn't think about missing a meal or sharing living space..I was a working musician starving for the art...and while that is true of many..the stars get a lot dimmer as time goes by and $50 for four hours works is not cutting it anymore..

    Im glad I lived in those times and know about it..but would I do it again..I don't think I could do that today..I see so many hopefuls .. recording on their iPhones..wanting to be..

    the rules and times have changed..the direction and styles of music have changed..where it will be in time...would Parker be able to pay the rent today..?

  9. #33

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    [QUOTE=wolflen;682628..but it was not a day at the beach..it was work..don't miss a phone call..and don't be late for a audition, rehearsal or studio dates..

    [/QUOTE]

    that is how I remember it, too. seemed like in the mid 80s all the work dried up and just never come back

    and that is no kidding....you didn't miss phone calls, you were never late, and you said "yes" to anything that didn't involve committing felonies.

    we used to say back then that the only thing we would ever turn down was our collar

  10. #34

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    London right

    I go see amazing players in pubs
    Usually free with £3 for the raffle

    I mean world class players , amazing
    Chops and lines , Laurence
    Cottle , jim mullen , Derek Nash ,
    Alan Barnes etc etc

    I don't know how they do it financially
    Teaching i guess ...
    They should be subsidized

  11. #35

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    It truly does seem that with the aging of the Baby Boomers in the US the opportunity to earn a decent living playing music is restricted to a fairly rarified few. Considering symphony players and other genres of music apart from rap and the country music styles.

    I can't help but think that one of the greats, George Benson, suggested that the key to his breakthrough as a pop star and perhaps a vision of a viable future for jazz aspirants who also like to eat daily was to play a kind of jazzed up R&B.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Miller
    Ron, that's what guys I've known that made a living out of music always did, too. They taught lessons, did arranging, music director for organizations, church organist, instrument repair, whatever they could that had to do with music.

    To be a musician, you have to think like a small businessman. This is my weakness. Some people are good bosses, some people are good employees. I'm a good employee.
    Great points, Nate. i taught a Business of Music Production course at Berklee, and the basis of it was that musicians and producers are small businessmen, and I took them through all the business basics. many have since become reasonably successful in various aspects of the music biz because they got an opportunity to see the nuts and bolts of the business side. Every arts school should have required courses like this.

  13. #37

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    This has been posted before on here but it is pertinent to the discussion, from a world famous musician on the state of the musical arts. "I now have my own record label because if I didn't I wouldn't have a record label..."


  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Especially when they see documentaries about those same grandparents spending their 20's and even 30's bumming around the Haight or Greenwich Village smoking grass and playing in drum circles.


    Well that is the thing .. Those grandparents have 20/20 hindsight. They are well aware that waisting your 20s come at a cost. Coorporate life doesn't have to be a bad thing .. and imagine putting the effort that is needed to stay afloat in the NY jazz world into the coorporate world.


    That being said all of it takes talent and/or passion be it music or coorporate life ... and if you have no talent or passion then you can't persue coorporate life without becoming miserable. Personally I don't have the passion for coorporate life, but as luck would have it, I've managed to do well on pure talent - despite waisting my 20s. For that I'm grateful.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Great points, Nate. i taught a Business of Music Production course at Berklee, and the basis of it was that musicians and producers are small businessmen, and I took them through all the business basics. many have since become reasonably successful in various aspects of the music biz because they got an opportunity to see the nuts and bolts of the business side. Every arts school should have required courses like this.
    that's cool that classes like that exist now. When I was at NTSU, we all said that a business class geared to musicians would have been great.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Miller
    that's cool that classes like that exist now. When I was at NTSU, we all said that a business class geared to musicians would have been great.

    nate..remember...the early 60's folk rock..evolved into ROCK (thank you Monterey Pop Festival-the FIRST rock concert) it was just beginning to be thought of as a business..that was guitar centric..

    which is strange as 50's R&R was an established form..many record lables and "stars" and live concerts..but...it was NOT guitar centric..

    everyone who saw Hendrix (Beatles) for the first time wanted a guitar..to be in a group etc..business was not even a consideration to most kids..thus .. many top rock acts made millions and ended up broke...

    the business end of Rock evolved in a piece meal way..guys from established labels had to understand what they were going to do with this "new" music..this is when FM was still "commercial free" and not everyone had FM..(who needs it??)

    while mainstream jazz was well established...the new players were going in a very different direction..and did not have the media appeal or a large following..

    (I saw Mahavishnu when they were still unknown..at the Whiskey in LA..it was a small room then 350-400-like being in a pressure cooker-unreal)

    so the business aspect in now mandatory in a musicians career..and as technology advances..the home studio and all it entails is another steep learning curve that must be considered..Im still dealing with that aspect..

  17. #41

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    Isn't the drought that musicians face in this country regarding gigs and remuneration as discussed by McLaughlin more acute for jazz than most other styles of music? Country still seems to thrive at least at the commercial level.

  18. #42

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    around 40 years ago. A old jazz player in New Orleans who was there at the beginning of jazz told me Jazz it's just a bad nickname. He said all music is jazz and jazz is all music. He said follow Miles Davis. I said miles understands this music.. then I learn David Sanborn and Stanley Clarke also understands is this music.. jazz is a living evolving music it is not static.. when it becomes static it becomes no longer relevant.. people refuse to change but that's what you have to do.. Reinventing myself and starting over is the hardest thing I've ever done.. so many things about this new music industry are exciting.

  19. #43

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    My impression is that it isn't enough to be a great jazz player.

    You have to be significantly better than that.

    And, it really helps if your skill set includes original music, different styles, reading, teaching, arranging, composition, bandleading etc. all at a world class level.

    If you don't have all that going on, you're going to have trouble competing with musicians who do.

    Over the last two years, I've gone three times to hear Strings Attached (Jack Wilkins, Joe Cohn, Vic Juris and Mark Whitfield, bass and drums) at the Zinc Bar, which is small. All of the shows were great. None of the shows was sold out. $20 admission, reasonable drink prices. Nice club.

    It puts me in mind of a Richard Belzer line, "If Mick Jagger can't get no satisfaction, I'm a f^&*( * mummy".