The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Article

    "It depends on what people define as a living," she says. In her experience, a sideman can make $100–$200 a night for a regular gig, depending. (Others told me $50 a night is not uncommon.) But if you're the leader, you have to see to it that your musicians are paid, even if you get nothing — even if you lose money on the deal. "What I define as a living is not what other people, who earn six figures, do. I have health insurance, but it's the lowest tier you can get, and I'm still reluctant to even have it." She laughs. "I don't have enough money to buy anything. If I choose to have kids, I don't know how much money I'd have for college. It's enough to live and be happy and get by...but it's something I'm really going to have to think about. So much money I save gets invested back in the work.

    Her saxophonist Stephens, 37, a Berklee College of Music grad who's lived in New York since 2004, agrees. "The pay is not sustainable. I don't know how people are doing it," he says. "People in their thirties, forties, fifties have roommates still because they're still not able to make a decent living."

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Jazz musicians do it for the love of the music not money, but they should still be able to make a livable income. The Arts get no respect in this country and that's disgraceful.

  4. #3

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    Yeah, there's no romance in being a starving artist. You'd better love it for all it's worth, because that'll be 90% of your takeaway.

  5. #4

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    jazz is an art which needs a kind of education to be understood.
    And the main problem for jazz is the audience.

    You go to play soporific music for a good fee in a garden party.
    And you go to play for free a more complex music in a little pub.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by nado64
    jazz is an art which needs a kind of education to be understood.
    And the main problem for jazz is the audience.
    what audience? i honestly think there are more people interested in how to play jazz than actually listening to the music

  7. #6

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    hmm...this article hits home...forgive me if this a bit of a tangent...a relevant story, imo, tho:

    i spent years in nashville doing a lot of road dates and session work while trying to get my chops up for the jazz world ...even playing commercial music, i still felt chewed up and spit out by the end. 'the end' tho was 2008, gas prices were affecting my road work and I was 23 with no skills besides being able to play/read music.

    I had started playing in a lot of jazz/funk/improv groups with a lot of people who had degrees, even a few professors...i hardly knew much of the academic music world besides regional jazz band in high school befpre that...I was hooked...then a reality Ms. Oh touched on came to light:

    Even Oh admits, "I'm afraid it'll end up being only the kids with money."

    Unable to sustain a living in Nashville off the road, I moved back to Pittsburgh...the "good" school for music here costs around $35k a year, and you have to pay for lessons outside of that ...when I was studying bass privately with a teacher from there, it was $60 an hour. (now, to me, it was worth every penny...but the sustainability of that for a non-rich-kid is another story)

    A little less than a century ago, a jazz education seemed like an apprenticeship ...today, you're almost dead in the water without a pricey degree...or, at least, without the networking that came with that pricey degree...

    I lived music purely for the love of it...I lived poor and worked shitty jobs to keep my schedule open, did the cliche 10 hour a day thing forever (still would, i am a practice nerd)...I did what I thought were the right things and ended up being miserable.

    I actually ended up taking a 7 year hiatus from playing gigs altogether and did a couple years of music school at a community college in the interim...which was actually great--I realized that I actually love playing and studying a lot more than playing gigs. ...I've been back at it for a year doing only gigs I truly want, it's been a lot better.

    I guess I don't know what my point is (lol) ...besides to say that I really feel the struggle presented in this article. I don't know anything about NYC, but I can only imagine it's way harder than Nashville. Cheers!

  8. #7

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    You maybe right nick.

    There seems to be more excitement even around here about what happened in 1959 than say the fantastic releases of now. I downloaded today from iTunes this weeks release by Szyman Mika. Can't understand why a jazz guitar forum is not all over this and discussing, it is a stunning work of art.

    Gilad Hekselman is gonna go down as a great, they will talk more about him in 30 years than we are now?

  9. #8

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    when I was 17, me and my buddy Sam realized that $50 a night...and I mean strait to you for 3 hours that ain't bad...but if you do it 365 days a year (and nobody plays every night of the year) but if you did, it doesn't even come up to 20k for the year.

  10. #9

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    The masses of players there (in NY) know why they are there. If it's their trip and they are following a vision then they'll make it work until it's plain they really cant -or things change. I have a couple of good friends in NY who work regularly in different bands and have loved it all despite the ongoing poverty and struggle. Maybe it will change for them one day, I know it has for some folks.

  11. #10

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    "I have health insurance, but it's the lowest tier you can get, and I'm still reluctant to even have it." She laughs. "I don't have enough money to buy anything. If I choose to have kids, I don't know how much money I'd have for college."

    Nobody is owed a living so they can be a "artiste".

    Why would anyone think they can make a decent living being a jazz musician?

    This ain't 1940 folks.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    "I have health insurance, but it's the lowest tier you can get, and I'm still reluctant to even have it." She laughs. "I don't have enough money to buy anything. If I choose to have kids, I don't know how much money I'd have for college."

    Nobody is owed a living so they can be a "artiste".

    Why would anyone think they can make a decent living being a jazz musician?

    This ain't 1940 folks.
    That is pretty hard, Drumbler. But you know something? You might just be onto something here.

    Before I came to this forum, I thought to myself that the becuase the forces of economics and politics shape my world, I had better try my best to find a way to earn a living that will allow me to meet my own needs and maybe even a few wants.

    Since coming to this forum and having a chance to converse with dedicated artists and such, I see there are those who feel they ought to be able to earn a decent living if their cause is worthwhile ( the arts for example).

    It really seems for me, to boil down to how you feel about minimum wage and living wage, and socio-economics in general, as well as how you feel about government artificially sustaining endeavors that cannot sustain themselves economically, and need government, or some caring patron/institution to step in.

  13. #12

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    I don't think anyone here or in those articles is talking about being "owed". I don't think these musicians are claiming to be "owed" just because they are lamenting that being a top performing artist is unsustainable in our society. I think it is sad too, that doesn't mean I think I am "owed" free music.

    And as far as the arts earning their keep, of course they don't. They never have. That's almost the definition of art, at least a major characteristic.

    Music is a pleasure. It doesn't "produce" anything. To have music, people growing crops have to share their food with musicians. Since the dawn of civilization. To have the arts we have to come together and support it and the artist who perform it. You think coming together as a society and supporting the arts is a waste? OK. Weird to me, but OK.

    As a final note, I have a five year old daughter. Everything we watch on TV geared to children here in the US, and I mean EVERYTHING, drums the message that they are to follow their passions, be true to themselves, never waiver, never give up. I can see why some children grow up putting in the hard work and selfless devotion feeling a little betrayed by the older generations telling them, "tough sh*t! Go be a corporate serf! No one promised you anything!" Especially when they see documentaries about those same grandparents spending their 20's and even 30's bumming around the Haight or Greenwich Village smoking grass and playing in drum circles.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    "I have health insurance, but it's the lowest tier you can get, and I'm still reluctant to even have it." She laughs. "I don't have enough money to buy anything. If I choose to have kids, I don't know how much money I'd have for college."

    Nobody is owed a living so they can be a "artiste".

    Why would anyone think they can make a decent living being a jazz musician?

    This ain't 1940 folks.
    Even when you're touring with a multiple Grammy winner (Pat Metheny) who will only play with the absolute elite of musicians in the world?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Everything we watch on TV geared to children here in the US, and I mean EVERYTHING, drums the message that they are to follow their passions, be true to themselves, never waiver, never give up. I can see why some children grow up putting in the hard work and selfless devotion feeling a little betrayed by the older generations telling them, "tough sh*t! Go be a corporate serf!
    exactly this....

  16. #15

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    My friend Rooster paid big bucks to go to tap dancing academy and can't find work anywhere...who'd a thunk it?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus
    Even when you're touring with a multiple Grammy winner (Pat Metheny) who will only play with the absolute elite of musicians in the world?
    It is upsetting for many to hear that devoting your life to being a jazz musician is not financially a great idea.

    I don't know what Metheny pays his band members.

    Hopefully enough to get good health insurance and set aside money for a place to live, savings for retirement, and raising their family.

    Metheny is probably the pre-eminent jazz guitarist in the world. He is 62.

    Metheny would play his music for nothing most likely. It is his passion. It's great for him people will pay to hear and see him.

    He has managed to accumulate about $5 million dollars which is just fine but not fantastic by celebrity standards.

    The greatest in just about anything do ok. The 1%. In this case the .001%.

    Being a sculptor, or someone who makes art out of scrap metal is also probably not a great way to ensure financial security.

    Now if you get great personal satisfaction out of it then it's fine. Don't expect society to reward you for your work. Society may not care in the least.

    Society does not care in the least for jazz musicians.

    So, when you pay your $60k+ to go to Berklee and study jazz performance, and then graduate and find no jobs playing jazz for good money, don't cry about it. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you do it.

    Pat Metheny's net worth:

    http://www.celebritiesmoney.com/pat-metheny-net-worth-musician-songwriter/





    Last edited by Drumbler; 08-16-2016 at 08:20 AM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    .

    Being a sculptor, or someone who makes art out of scrap metal is also probably not a great way to ensure financial security.

    Now if you get great personal satisfaction out of it then it's fine. Don't expect society to reward you for your work. Society may not care in the least.

    Society does not care in the least for jazz musicians.

    So, when you pay your $60k+ to go to Berklee and study jazz performance, and then graduate and find no jobs playing jazz for good money, don't cry about it. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you do it.

    Sadly, this is the true, bare-knuckle reality of things. And sadly, the part of me that is still a bit of a romantic is saddened.

    Society-at-large is getting tired of paying for others to have their flights of fancy. Here in Texas, there is a big debate about financing a new baseball stadium (around a billion dollar proposition). The argument is that many don't attend games so why should they bankroll baseball fans and teams. (And they don't believe the economic impact is a great as the Texas Rangers say it will be, such that the city would get its money back many times over.)

    Many make the same argument with the Arts.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I.. they are lamenting that being a top performing artist is unsustainable in our society.....
    forget about "top performing artist"

    when I started playing gigs, regular working musicians in every city and town in America had enough work (because there was live music in a lot more places than today) to make a modest living

    you see, you used to be able to work 5 or 6 nights a week and you didn't need to be "top recording talent" to make rent and pay your bills

    hell, I had 2 friends growing up that their dads were professional musicians. They were regular dads, they just worked nights. That was when I decided to be a guitar player for a career.

    then it seemed like the work dried up in the 80s and never really come back. People used to go out during the week, and definitely went out to dinner or something on weekends, and live music was a popular entertainment. but people stay home more now and there's just not as much work to go around

    but if "top recording talent" can't make rent, then what chance have regular working musicians got?

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler

    So, when you pay your $60k+ to go to Berklee and study jazz performance....



    when I went to NTSU in the 80s it was $10 a credit hour. Even with special fees for private lessons and practice rooms the semester bill was around $500. I paid for each semester of classes by reaching one hand into my pocket and pulling out cash money.


    .....just sayin

  21. #20

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    The change in the drinking age from 18 to 21 just killed the nightclub/bar business.

    There were nightclubs that had 3 bands in 3 separate rooms! Rock/pop bands I mean. And the rooms were packed.

    It was young people (16-23) who were the big band fans in the 1920s, 30s, and early 40s.
    Last edited by Drumbler; 08-16-2016 at 11:13 AM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    The change in the drinking age from 18 to 21 just killed the nightclub/bar business.

    There were nightclubs that had 3 bands in 3 separate rooms! Rock/pop bands I mean. And the rooms were packed.

    It was young people (16-23) who were the big band fans in the 1920s, 30s, and early 40s.
    I'm telling ya! yea, I remember what it was like playing the downtown rock and roll clubs when I was in high school. Packed to the rafters on a Tuesday night.

    and do you remember the last time you had a 6-nighter? its been a quarter century since I've been booked more than one night at a time.

    I remember how after the 6 nighters dried up, we would still get booked for a whole weekend in the 80s. The standard deal we got was we played Friday, Saturday and Sunday. We'd make all our money off the door Friday and Saturday and then play Sunday to an empty room, but the place had live music for anybody that did come in. So we took the loss Sunday to make the money on Friday and Saturday. Hell, that was 30 years ago now

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Miller
    when I went to NTSU in the 80s it was $10 a credit hour. Even with special fees for private lessons and practice rooms the semester bill was around $500. I paid for each semester of classes by reaching one hand into my pocket and pulling out cash money.


    .....just sayin
    I think you just laid your finger on the generational gap. From after WWII until about the 90's public higher education was essentially free in the US, and of the highest order. Some say that was our greatest national competitive advantage.

    Now, kids graduating from the SUNY system can expect to be $60K or more in debt (and thats WITH a part time job). SUNY costs $17,000 a year JUST IN TUITION AND FEES. That does not include the cost of living. The UC system is the same.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I think you just laid your finger on the generational gap. From after WWII until about the 90's public higher education was essentially free in the US, and of the highest order. Some say that was our greatest national competitive advantage.

    Now, kids graduating from the SUNY system can expect to be $60K or more in debt (and thats WITH a part time job). SUNY costs $17,000 a year JUST IN TUITION AND FEES. That does not include the cost of living. The UC system is the same.
    Check this...

    SUNY Albany tuition & fees: Tuition and Costs - University at Albany-SUNY

  25. #24

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    Yes, exactly. I was looking at this:

    https://www.suny.edu/smarttrack/tuition-and-fees/

    You can see that tuition is $11,920 plus $4,820 in indirect costs. That does not include rent, food, etc. Community college isn't far behind.

    EDIT: I see they added $3800 for a year's worth of rent and food. Is that a joke? Where can you pay rent and feed yourself for $320 a month? In any case, the point is made. This ain't no $10 a semester.
    Last edited by rlrhett; 08-16-2016 at 06:04 PM.

  26. #25

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    Lots of money to be made in education.

    I saw Jonathan Kriesberg play in New York in front of my wife and I and 3 others. Ripping performance $10 ahead but I am sure he could pull together 20 people at $10,000 a pop for a 30 hours a week 25 week intensive.