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Hey,
Just finished a jam last night where I was a playing as a trio with drums and double bass and I've got to admit I'm struggling to play that well without a piano. I was just wondering if anybody had any tips for playing in this kind of lineup as I'm much more used to playing with piano. In addition the rhythm section didn't exactly swing that hard and if I can't find the groove then I always struggle, although it doesn't seem to bother some players.
Something else as well, how many tunes should you realistically be able to play? Every time I go to a jam session there's about 4 new songs I've never played before and the real book changes imo are almost always wrong by as much 50% of the chords. What can I do to improve my knowledge of the repotoire? I say this because there's a trombone player who goes to another jam that I play at sometimes who's 82 and he's like a jukebox. He knows all the tunes and changes. I'm astounded at his musical memory because technically he's a good player but also I think that generation had a much better capacity to retain information.
Anyway any advice/thoughts would be welcome!
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12-18-2015 07:06 AM
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Kenny Burrell made some good trio recordings, I always think they are a good model.
His style is fairly straightforward, but he still gets enough chords in for the tunes to make sense with no piano.
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The trio setting is where your chord playing really shines. It's also a setting in which the bass and drums can be more "musical" because they are being heard so clearly. A trio player should also not be afraid of spaces. We guitarists always seem to feel like we have to fill up every measure with lots of notes, but really we could learn to play the spaces too.
There will always be tunes we don't know, which is why learning harmonic structures is so helpful. Sometimes I notice a tune that goes to the IV chord on measure 5 and I think "Misty-A Section." There are really only about 4 or 5 common structures for "bridges" and they're worth knowing.
As for errors in the Real Book, that's not a shock, but I'm a little surprised at "50%" errors. I haven't seen any fake book with that high a rate of error. I wonder if you're seeing common substitutions and passing chords, which the RB includes instead of the "original" chords, and thinking they're errors? Maybe pointing a few of those out would help.
I am no great player, but I find I love the trio format if the bass and drums are really in the pocket.
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Joe Pass also has some really fine trio recordings. A few of my favorites are:
Portraits of Duke Ellington
Eximious
Intercontinental
Joe Pass Trio Live at Donte's
Resonance
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12-18-2015, 09:56 AM #5destinytot GuestRight on, man - rootless rules.
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Originally Posted by Iced Tea
If no other harmony instrument that makes things easier no toes to avoid stepping on, if bass player is good at establishing the harmony then you can play with him or play colors. As for the groove if it's bad then decide you take it on yourself establish the groove and get them to follow you.
My old bass improv teacher was one of those people known for knowing 5000 tunes, but being around him you realize he does know a lot, but more important he has good ears and a good knowledge of where songs typically go. As they say it's all about cycles so a matter of hears the cycles going on. I would say when listening to tune on CD listen for those cycles, make xerox copies of standards and sit with coffee and analyze the progression and spot all the cycle and turnarounds, that helps tie the ear what the chords are.
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Being I was in music school and few years later the early days of the internet (no web yet) I witnessed the constant arguments over changes in the Real Book and other fake books. Chord changing between editions of the Real Book before it was turned into a commercial product. A lot of it comes from is the old records and different leaders used different chords so all depended on which recording someone used for that page of a fake book. Reading the biographies of old Jazz players they talk about having to know different changes for different bands they played with. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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It helps to do it a lot!
Things I bear in mind.
- You need to be good at playing melodies. This is the most important thing - it's the first thing that hits the listeners ears and is the hub that everything revolves around. I've been concentrating on getting better at playing melodies by ear. Sax players can do this. When you are in a trio, suddenly you start to realise how little time one spends doing this as a guitar player. Being able to busk requests is a skill I'd like to develop.
- Timing. Good timing makes everything sound bigger and fatter. You don't necessarily need to play more, just make it lock with the other players more. The main thing I hear even very good guitarists do in trios is play slightly out of time, weak head statements (probably because they are not confident in the melody of the song) - they don't sell the tune. Often the soloing is much better. I wonder what they spend more time practicing?
- I always feel I should play fewer single note lines and more chords when I listen back. Not necessarily chord soloing per se - just a bit of negative space between melodic statements.
- Get good at sketching in little two chords. Be good at popping the odd spot of harmony behind melody notes. Get used to play a melody note first, then add a chord behind. A little of this goes a long way.
- Dynamics. Be able to build things up and down. Develop the ability to play loud solo lines punctuated by soft chords. Common technique that simulates a solo and comping instrument, or two hands of a piano. You don't have to do this (Pat Metheny doesn't really do this, for example) but it's a common approach and can sound great.
- Tunes with arrangements built in work really well (Stompin' at the Savoy, Four, Nica's Dream, say). Also any standards with a strong descriptive melody, such as the vocal standards repertoire.
- Bop heads only work if the bass player can double them. Otherwise you sound like you are soloing (Jonathon Kreisberg pointed this out in a class I was at.)
- Mix things up as much as you can. Try and feature the bass player on some melodies. I often give the bass first solo. Fours with drums always good. Stops and hits of all kinds helps keep it fresh in the listener's ears.
- Dont be afraid to outline the changes really obviously in your solo-lines. Triads - either based on the root, or on the 3rd of the chord (Em over C say) always sound great. Practice putting chord tones on the beat when you play more scalic or chromatic language. It's easy for changes to get lost.
I'm still working on all of this but I feel I'm getting a bit better. Trio is now one of my favourite line ups to play in. I think it's fantastic for my playing - you really have to own your space as a player.
IMO a professional jazz guitarist should have a repertoire of 200-300 tunes at least. Learning this many tunes by ear is about as good practice as anything you can do.Last edited by christianm77; 12-18-2015 at 02:40 PM.
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Oh one of the really nice things about playing in a trio is you have almost complete harmonic freedom. So you can put any chord you like behind a melody note. You can get some interesting stuff going with the bass.
If you are playing the melody then you are constrained to some extent by that, but when it comes to soloing - well, there's all sorts of possibilities.
And while you should know the vanilla changes - you certainly don't have to play them or even anything directly related to them - provided you keep the form...
We are so used to having to conform to a vertical idea of harmony because of the piano that this can take a while to get one's head around. I feel like I've only just realised that I have all this freedom. In most of the groups I play with I am the only chord player. I can do anything bwahahaahahahahahaha! (So long as I don't lose the form and the time... ;-))
I like listening to Lage Lund and Lionel Loueke in trios. They do some great stuff!Last edited by christianm77; 12-18-2015 at 02:48 PM.
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Dang, christianm77, this ought to be engraved on a plaque somewhere. Excellent advice, and it's evident you paid in blood for each of these points. Really, splendid wisdom here.
Originally Posted by christianm77
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That's very kind of you to say :-) I'm really glad that may be of some help.
The bottom line is, get a bass and drums together and rehearse and gig as a trio as much as you can. The best way to learn....
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Thanks for all the advice guys! It's certainly given me a lot of food for thought.
I guess the main thing that will help your playing is experience playing in these situations. All the solo practice in the world will only get you so far I guess - the subtleties of playing with other musicians is knowledge that can only be born out of doing it for real.
I also happen to think that the beauty of music lies in a certain kind of alchemy that sometimes can't be theorised. It's why you can get put some of the best musicians together and it can still sound flat, whereas as others become greater than the sum of their parts.
It seems that playing as a trio requires discipline and dedication as there's some contradictory elements involved as at times you'll need to play both within yourself and without.
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Attitude is all-important as well. A trio can be either a guitarist with accompaniment, or a trio with all players contributing equally.
An ideal situation is a quartet with horn or vocals accompanied by guitar trio, this allows you to comp, play counterpoint, harmonize or lay out, and when it's solo time, it makes a nice textural change. Listen to Jim Hall with Art Farmer, Paul Desmond and Sonny Rollins to get a real master class in functioning as an accompanist, soloist and partner.
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Are this is a great thread. I am putting together a trio as well. I am a beginner at jazz so we keep the solo's short 24 bars on a blues and not afraid to be a bit of a cover band. Any comments on this as a set list (picked what I consider cool and/or rythmic heads and from a list I found somewhere of solos for beginners to transcribe):
Greens Greenery Grant Green
Sundown Wes Montgomery
Summertime refer Chet Baker/Benson MacDuff blend
The Scratch MacDuff Benson
Sandu - Clifford Brown
i fall in love too easily – chet baker
driftin herbie hancock
moanin art blakey
autumn leaves cannonball adderley
soulful brothers kenny burrell
March of the sad ones - gilad hekselman
breathless - gilad hekselman
cool blues charlie parker/grant green
grants dimension - grant green
Pickley wickley herb ellis
remember - hank mobley
blues walk - lou donaldson
some day my prince will come - miles
smoking at the savoy – Clifford brown
straight no chaser – Thelonious monk
walkin' – miles davisGreens Greenery Grant Green
Sundown Wes Montgomery
Summertime refer Chet Baker/Benson MacDuff blend
The Scratch MacDuff Benson
Sandu - Clifford Brown
i fall in love too easily – chet baker
driftin herbie hancock
moanin art blakey
autumn leaves cannonball adderley
soulful brothers kenny burrell
March of the sad ones - gilad hekselman
breathless - gilad hekselman
cool blues charlie parker/grant green
grants dimension - grant green
Pickley wickley herb ellis
remember - hank mobley
blues walk - lou donaldson
some day my prince will come - miles
smoking at the savoy – Clifford brown
straight no chaser – Thelonious monk
walkin' – miles davisGreens Greenery Grant Green
Sundown Wes Montgomery
Summertime refer Chet Baker/Benson MacDuff blend
The Scratch MacDuff Benson
Sandu - Clifford Brown
i fall in love too easily – chet baker
driftin herbie hancock
moanin art blakey
autumn leaves cannonball adderley
soulful brothers kenny burrell
March of the sad ones - gilad hekselman
breathless - gilad hekselman
cool blues charlie parker/grant green
grants dimension - grant green
Pickley wickley herb ellis
remember - hank mobley
blues walk - lou donaldson
some day my prince will come - miles
smoking at the savoy – Clifford brown
straight no chaser – Thelonious monk
walkin' – miles davis
Another cool trio that is not listed above is John Scofield, very rhythmic and that New Orleans seasoning, love it!
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Already a lot of great advice.
All I'll say is that if you're not comfortable in a trio, and especially if the bass player and drummer aren't carrying their own weight, it can be very difficult to make it work.
The flip side is, if you can get comfortable, and if the bass player and drummer are killin (or at least familiar enough with their traditional roles that they can keep the groove and form together) than it can be one of the most gratifying and rewarding instrumentations to play in. To me at least. And it seems that most guitarist and pianists feel the same way.
**If/when you play along with backing tracks... make sure the keys are muted. This will give you a chance to practice with no comping instrument. iRealB is great for this. Or just loop yourself playing the basic root notes of the chord progression, and practicing improvising over it.
**Remember that you don't need to fill up every beat with sound. It's perfectly find to leave breaks and pauses. You can pause in the middle of a line and fill it in with some chords... or you can just pause completely and let the bass and drums play.
**Remember that it's not necessary to play insane, crazy, single note lines all the time. You can do so really basic melodies and/or some really basic chordal stuff. Listen to any great piano or guitar trio and pay close attention to the leader when they're soloing. There's plenty of times where they're keeping things really simple and just utilizing a few chord voicings to create the sensation of movement and swing without playing anything that crazy.
**Arrange lots of chord melodies... especially rootless chords if possible... but don't sweat it if that's too challenging. I don't know how far along you are. You can make rooted chords work too. But if the bass player is good, and you're able to let go of them, it will create a more colorful and playful quality to the group. But the main point is just to be able to think and perform chords moving in a way that creates melodies with it. Or to be able to perform a melody where chords are happening around it. Either way, the more you practice those things in your own time, the easier they get in a group setting and the more freedom you'll experience to be playful. You solos don't have to be all over the place. Some of the best sounding solos stick pretty closely to the melodic material... so have a chord melody worked out and practice improvising within and around it.
Keep working at it... it gets easier and more fun.
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Why are the tunes repeated 3 times... other wise sigh me up, looks fun.
With a trio... it's generally not the tunes... it's how ya playem. Any tune can be played in almost any style... so the 2nd and 3rd times through... playem different. All great advice above... but eventually your going to be playing for who listens... and with a trio.... your going to need to entertain... not just with the tunes... your playing. Have spatial plans... organize the time you play. Trios get old fast when you just play the same thing etc... set up what you do well... as well as camouflage what you don't do well.
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I've had a guitar trio for the last 18 years. With 3 people, everyone has to play more and take up more space because there is more space there. So consequently, playing trio requires all three players to be rock solid because there is nowhere to hide and there's no one else who can carry you if you can't deal with it
As a guitar player, the thing to remember is that piano players are your competition, really. If you are in a group with a piano player and a horn player, you (the poor guitar player) will be the first one fired when they circle the wagons.
Many horn players discriminate against guitar players and prefer piano players anyway.
so learn to play without piano players by learning to play LIKE piano players. you actually are not playing a guitar. You are playing a Lap Piano. Just ask George Van Epps
For ideas for trio playing I say listen to The Three Sounds with Barry Harris for ideas on how to set tunes for a trio. They are one of the best strait up trios I ever heard.
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I'm not really disagreeing, but - why, then, compete at your disadvantage? The pianists will always win at harmony, for numerous reasons. The sound of the instrument is more complete and full too. Originally Posted by Nate Miller
AFAIK George van eps is mostly appreciated by other guitarists who understand how extraordinary his achievement is.
Other guitarists aren't booking you.
You want to gig? I say be a guitar. Everyone loves bill frisell, Jim hall, Peter Bernstein... Offer something the piano can't.
As far as the trio thing goes, think about the resources available to you as a guitarist. Of course - There's nothing wrong with checking out pianists (I love Barry Harris; and the simulated left hand right hand thing is great too) but guitarists IMO shouldn't be content to be a bad piano imitation.
Think of the resources we have - percussion, strumming, tone colours, bending, effects pedals, harmonics, even little scrapes and squeaks and guitar noises that form an organic part of our sound. That's something the piano hasn't got. We can be much more orchestral, in fact.
Also IMO a good live guitar rig shits all over a stage piano in terms of beauty of sound. If there's a good piano at the gig, then the piano wins :-)
I love guys like Lionel loueke for that - now there's a guy who plays the guitar!
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chris, that's a completely valid way to look at it, and if you want to use that approach, that's fine with me
but..."but guitarists IMO shouldn't be content to be a bad piano imitation. " that statement is a leap and I didn't say that at all
when I say play like piano players, I'm talking about simple clear voice leading like the left hand of every good piano player you ever heard. The big 7th chord strummy stuff is what horn players always told me was hard for them to hear the changes.
So if you comp with a clear sound and have good voice leading, then that's what I'm talking about when I say play like a piano player
and I may just be from a different generation, but I play guitar and I've been listening to nothing but Bud Powell all week
so I've always gotten ideas from piano players....probably more than from other guitar players, to be honest
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Well I can't disagree with that, and I'd have to whole heartedly endorse that post. Originally Posted by Nate Miller
The big strummy seventh chord stuff I'm not totally sure what you mean. If you are talking about straight fours, tight voice leading and three note chords are a good idea. In Django style rhythm guitar the changes are hard to hear, but in this style you have to remember the guitar replaces the drums essentially. But this isn't really relevant for playing in a trio (I kind of think it's impossible to play Swing in a guitar/bass/drums trio. Which may be why it was more standard to have piano/guitar/bass back in the '40s.)
But I like the way Pete Bernstein really digs into the guitar sometimes - really strums those chords sometimes. His voicings are pretty simple a lot of the time - lots of 3 note voicings. His vibrato is great too. Another thing the guitar can do that the piano can't....
We have to give GVE his due - he basically invented those 3 note voicings!
Personally; I've studied horn players more than pianists....
I almost feel like it's the split in jazz guitar - the horn guys (Charllie Christian) and the piano guys (GVE) but I love the point that Julian Lage made about being happy to be a guitar. IMO he does this really well, and I think if you go back to the early days of Eddie Lang and Django you hear that once the guitar was just a guitar. Lage has done a terrific job of taking that sound and making it contemporary.
That said I did spend a lot of last week listening to Bud, too.... But he is kind of hornlike, no?
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"That said I did spend a lot of last week listening to Bud, too.... But he is kind of hornlike, no?" in some ways, yes, now that you mention it. He plays a lot of single line ideas, and he uses a lot of playful quotes. I just heard him hit an irish jig and quote Salt Peanuts while playing a chorus of Body and Soul. It reminded me of Dexter
but its his solo piano that I really love. He plays key on key and all these runs in 10ths like Tatum would do, its just fantastic
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Yeah you can hear the stride tradition in it, which I love.... Originally Posted by Nate Miller
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