The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I was wondering if anyone can speak from experience of the possibility of this happening:

    I played a small gig recently with a 12 member band and I was playing at the back, right beside the bass player, whose amp was to my immediate right and slightly behind me. My guitar was on my right knee with the body being kind of in the line of fire of his speaker. My amp was to my left and in front of me. I was playing an Eastman AR810 into an Evans RE200 amp set to a medium volume level and was having no feedback issues until we began the 2nd set. Upon returning back to the bandstand, the bass player (using an electric bass into a 200watt Fender style amp) told me that an audience member had said that my levels were fine but that they couldn't hear the bass very well, so he turned his amp up a notch. We then began the 2nd set with a couple of softer quartet numbers, whereas the 1st set was all big band type pieces. I was playing the tune "In a Mellow Tone", quite softly, but my guitar kept wanting to feedback, so I couldn't let my chords ring out as much as I wanted to and had to turn my guitar down to prevent it, but it was always close to the point of feedback for the rest of the night. I didn't get the chance to do anything about it, other than reach over to my amp and lower the bass setting somewhat.

    Please share any thoughts on this, as this was my first jazz gig and my first with an archtop on stage. My usual forte is rock/blues using solidbody guitars, so I'm not sure if I am even correct about the bass amp being able to have an impact on my guitar, but it sure felt like the guitar was vibrating more than normal when he hit certain bass notes during that 2nd set.

    Cheers,
    Dan

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  3. #2

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    yeah ... you've got to
    get further away from the bass amp for sure

    and all will be well

  4. #3

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    Stay away from anything that's going to resonate your guitar. Your amp included.

    Another thing I use is any cheesy EQ.
    Find the frequency that's howling and pull it out.

  5. #4

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    I'd recommend Doug's Plugs.

  6. #5

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    I can tell if the bass is sharp or flat when my headstock tuner (and sometimes my pedal tuner) is on- the guitar resonates to the bass's notes and reads out on my tuner. Horns can do the same thing- I can read what note they're blowing and sometimes have to have everyone stop the damned noodling so I can tune up! (Sax players tuning up are a chore because the process of adjusting the mouthpiece is so imprecise- and then they're out of tune again 8 bars in. It's like trying to play a gig after changing strings ten minutes before downbeat).

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    I can tell if the bass is sharp or flat when my headstock tuner (and sometimes my pedal tuner) is on- the guitar resonates to the bass's notes and reads out on my tuner. Horns can do the same thing- I can read what note they're blowing and sometimes have to have everyone stop the damned noodling so I can tune up! (Sax players tuning up are a chore because the process of adjusting the mouthpiece is so imprecise- and then they're out of tune again 8 bars in. It's like trying to play a gig after changing strings ten minutes before downbeat).
    You are exactly right about the horns blowing and messing with those vibration based headstock tuners. Those tuners are great for quiet situations and very handy to use, but I find it imperative to use an electronic tuner when playing with the jazz band.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanDan
    Upon returning back to the bandstand, the bass player (using an electric bass into a 200watt Fender style amp) told me that an audience member had said that my levels were fine but that they couldn't hear the bass very well, so he turned his amp up a notch.

    Cheers,
    Dan
    Not to make light of your issue, but this sounds like a few bass players I know. If there was an audience member it was probably his mate. In reality he didnt do you, the rest of the band, or himself any favors. Its better to get a trained ear out in the audience for sound check not a random.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Frethack
    Not to make light of your issue, but this sounds like a few bass players I know. If there was an audience member it was probably his mate. In reality he didnt do you, the rest of the band, or himself any favors. Its better to get a trained ear out in the audience for sound check not a random.
    I can appreciate where you're coming from, but in this case he's a kind and considerate person and player. I think what the problem is, and I see (and hear) this from a lot of bass players, is that they feel the need to fill the bottom end, forgoing some upper-mids to provide clarity and projection in their sound. He may very well have been quiet to the audience, but that would probably have been resolved with some eq adjustment rather than upping the volume of what was a "woofy" sound to begin with.

    I think getting away from his amp altogether will resolve my issue.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
    I'd recommend Doug's Plugs.

    I've heard of these, but I feel that kind of defeats the purpose of playing an archtop. Do they deaden the sound much?

    I think if I was dealing with a rampant problem, which in this case I was not, I would just bring a solidbody. If it persists, I'll switch to my Les Paul.

    Thanks for your input.

    Dan

  11. #10

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    In situations where lots of (excessive?) volume is required, I've found the Empress ParaEQ to come in handy. Fairly transparent - decent piece of equipment.

  12. #11

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    I don't know if you play with a P.A. but if you do I would suggest that everybody plays at the level they need for the stage sound and any additional volume is given by a mixer desk and the P.A. This will isolate the guitar from heavy bass frequencies (to some extent). If it is still a problem make sure that the P.A. speakers are in front of the stage. (They are there for the audience and not for the musicians.)

    Hope this helps.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbri5050
    I don't know if you play with a P.A. but if you do I would suggest that everybody plays at the level they need for the stage sound and any additional volume is given by a mixer desk and the P.A. This will isolate the guitar from heavy bass frequencies (to some extent). If it is still a problem make sure that the P.A. speakers are in front of the stage. (They are there for the audience and not for the musicians.)

    Hope this helps.
    No P.A. used for instruments, only for the vocalists, and the speakers were in front of the band anyway. Thanks for the input, however.

  14. #13

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    Not sure if I made myself clear. Yes the P.A. should be at the front (providing the band can hear the vocal). What I am saying is that if someone requests more bass sound you should not turn the bass amp up as this is causing the problem you describe. What you need to do is to get the 'Line Output' from the bass amp and route it through the P.A. This will give the audience more bass sound without need to turn up the bass amp. This should stop it from setting your guitar into resonance.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbri5050
    Not sure if I made myself clear. Yes the P.A. should be at the front (providing the band can hear the vocal). What I am saying is that if someone requests more bass sound you should not turn the bass amp up as this is causing the problem you describe. What you need to do is to get the 'Line Output' from the bass amp and route it through the P.A. This will give the audience more bass sound without need to turn up the bass amp. This should stop it from setting your guitar into resonance.
    I understand what it is your saying, it's just that it doesn't apply in this case, as this all took place during the performance, so there was no way to reconfigure on the fly. Yes, ideally all electronic or amplified instruments should be mic'd and/or DI'ed, but this was a very small venue with very limited inputs on the mixer.

    Mostly I really just wanted to know if those bass frequencies could have such a direct impact on my guitar's carved top and hence create the feedback that didn't seem present earlier in the show and if others had similar experiences.

    Again, thanks for the good suggestions.

  16. #15

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    Mostly I really just wanted to know if those bass frequencies could have such a direct impact on my guitar's carved top and hence create the feedback that didn't seem present earlier in the show.
    yes they can

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanDan
    I've heard of these, but I feel that kind of defeats the purpose of playing an archtop. Do they deaden the sound much?

    I think if I was dealing with a rampant problem, which in this case I was not, I would just bring a solidbody. If it persists, I'll switch to my Les Paul.

    Thanks for your input.

    Dan
    Doug's Plugs are not supposed to deaden the sound, but I have never tried them. About two years ago I tried to have some made and was told they are no longer producing them. Maybe I will try again.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63
    Doug's Plugs are not supposed to deaden the sound, but I have never tried them. About two years ago I tried to have some made and was told they are no longer producing them. Maybe I will try again.
    Or you can stuff the guitar with foam ......

    This is good if you also want to deaden the timbre a bit (ie make the guitar less bright)
    I did this , it works great ... (reducing the tendancy to acoustic feedback almost completely,
    and dulling the timbre)

    In fact I overdid it and have now removed half the foam .....
    just leaving foam in the upper bouts of the guitar

    Its a good compromise (for me)

  19. #18

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    In the 60's I had an EKO semi-acoustic bass and tried stuffing it to stop feedback on stage. I learnt that it is not good to buy a thoroughbred horse and then turn it into a donkey to make it work harder. Your archtop is a well designed and finely tuned microphone that normally picks up its own vibrations. However it will also resonate with any other loud sound in its sound range, (which is most sounds).

    As you say, none of these ideas would have helped you in a situation on stage that you found yourself in. My best advice is to plan ahead.

    If this was a one-off experience, tell the bass player to shift his amp or to put it down to experience. However, you can also try right-hand, or palm damping on the strings near the pickup. Another way to get over it on stage is to switch to all barre chords. An open string is just sitting there waiting to resonate. Resonance often takes a short time to develop. Using barre chords means that by changing chords you interrupt the tendency for the string to get into resonance.

    If it happens more than once get control of the sound on stage by improving the sound system. A small sub mixer would take the D.I. from each amp and you can then route a single line into the stage amp. I hope that this helps. I know what it is like to be on stage with a 'howler'.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbri5050
    In the 60's I had an EKO semi-acoustic bass and tried stuffing it to stop feedback on stage. I learnt that it is not good to buy a thoroughbred horse and then turn it into a donkey to make it work harder. Your archtop is a well designed and finely tuned microphone that normally picks up its own vibrations. However it will also resonate with any other loud sound in its sound range, (which is most sounds).

    As you say, none of these ideas would have helped you in a situation on stage that you found yourself in. My best advice is to plan ahead.

    If this was a one-off experience, tell the bass player to shift his amp or to put it down to experience. However, you can also try right-hand, or palm damping on the strings near the pickup. Another way to get over it on stage is to switch to all barre chords. An open string is just sitting there waiting to resonate. Resonance often takes a short time to develop. Using barre chords means that by changing chords you interrupt the tendency for the string to get into resonance.

    If it happens more than once get control of the sound on stage by improving the sound system. A small sub mixer would take the D.I. from each amp and you can then route a single line into the stage amp. I hope that this helps. I know what it is like to be on stage with a 'howler'.
    Some very good suggestions. Thank you.

  21. #20

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    Archtop feedback due to close proximity to bass amp on stage?-van-epp-l5-jpg

    I had problems dating back to the 1960's.I'd started on a Hofner Club 60,a Les Paul sized & shaped hollow guitar, then on to a '59 Gibson L.P. Jnr & a 1961 Strat ), but I always liked archtops. I had toured with a Gretsch Tennessean,a closed body, hollow guitar, through a Vox 30 amp, and had no problems. Eventually, I bought an Epiphone Sorrento to be my main guitar. About this time, 'Satisfaction' was a big hit for the Stones, and I bought a 'Burns Buzzaround' to do the job of the fuzz riff. I could never calm it enough to use it. I'd just get wild feedback.

    A little later, I bought a full archtop ( Gibson L5 in 1968 ) ,and the feedback got worse, as I had to battle Hammond organs & Leslie speakers .I was using a Fender Bandmaster, through a 2 x 15" Dual Showman cab. ( What a sound ! ).Barney Kessel's book recommended using your palm to damp the strings you weren't sounding. I then discovered Epiphone were doing the 'Van Epp' Damper, and one was duly fitted ( see photo ) Partial success...open string overtones were gone, but fretted feedback notes remained, especially the 'B' on the bass string. A call to Dan Armstrong ( father of Kent ) & he recommended filling the guitar with screwed up newspaper. That wasn't going to happen, although I did fill a Rickenbacker 330 with the insulation wool you put in your attic. So now, for pop gigs, it's a Strat, for jazz, it's a Gibson 335,or a Guild Bluesbird...a chambered, lightweight solid, a little like the Tennessean and the Club 60 in many ways. Full circle !

  22. #21

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    Hi all. I've been over in CG for years and am falling back toward jazz again. So I haven't been around here much. Reading the posts above because I need a small amp myself, I thought of something which may be too weird to try, to prevent feedback: Since we are always concerned with how we sound to the listener while playing in a large group, has anyone ever tried getting a, say, 20' cable and putting the amp that far away at rehearsal or sound check ? Then you'd have no feedback and could even get more volume, plus constantly knowing how you sound from 'far away'. Maybe if near a horn player he or she might help you with this. Of course since the ensemble is at a nice jazz volume (that'll be the day !), you'd still hear yourself acoustically, during show. Is this a really lame idea ? Why ?

  23. #22

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    that's thinking 'outside the box' for you.

    great post.

    i've no answer!

    closed cab ss amps feedback less than open back valve amps (or partially open backed ss amps etc.)

    i wonder how many jazzers play non-jazz instruments because of feedback issues

    i wonder how many rock players aren't interested in jazz because it doesn't allow them to play really really loud

    i wonder a lot of things
    Last edited by Groyniad; 12-19-2015 at 07:55 AM.

  24. #23

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    Well I agree with the above comments about string dampeners, aka FretWraps as you will be very hard pressed to find one like Herb Ellis used to use, which was made by George Van Epps, super rare nowadays. So the FretWrap. DougsPlugs and moving your amp away, maybe 15 feet tops. If that don't make a difference, I don't know what will. good luck

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkInLA
    Hi all. I've been over in CG for years and am falling back toward jazz again. So I haven't been around here much. Reading the posts above because I need a small amp myself, I thought of something which may be too weird to try, to prevent feedback: Since we are always concerned with how we sound to the listener while playing in a large group, has anyone ever tried getting a, say, 20' cable and putting the amp that far away at rehearsal or sound check ? Then you'd have no feedback and could even get more volume, plus constantly knowing how you sound from 'far away'. Maybe if near a horn player he or she might help you with this. Of course since the ensemble is at a nice jazz volume (that'll be the day !), you'd still hear yourself acoustically, during show. Is this a really lame idea ? Why ?
    If you have a chance for a good, thorough soundcheck before the show, maybe it would work fine. But if not? You imagine yourself running back and forth to adjust the controls, make sure it sounds good from where you sitting, plus make sure it sounds good to the audience and whoever lucky in your band to stand next to your amp? Honestly, I would just bring another guitar that not feedback prone. A lot of laminate archtops are more trusty in that regard.

  26. #25

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    I'm going to say that it is much more likely that the feedback was coming from the bass amp. Your notes were probably exciting the bass top and with the higher gain on his amp, feeding back.