How long should a gig be for a typical restaurant, bar, private party gig.

**rickshapiro** · 03-18-2015, 02:20 PM

I know the answer is it depends, but I want to build up a solo jazz guitar repertoire and am trying to set goals for the number tunes I need to have under my belt. My rock gigs are usually three sets of 50 minutes. What do restaurants and bars usually require?

Thanks,

Rick

**drbhrb** · 03-18-2015, 02:26 PM

Most bar and restaurant gigs I play are 2-3 hours. 10-15 minute breaks in between sets. Number of tunes would depend on how much you stretch on each tune.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-18-2015, 02:33 PM

Same here, 2-3 hours, short breaks. If people are into it, I'll delay a break.

**christianm77** · 03-18-2015, 05:54 PM

Depends on what they are paying. I reckon your cart is before the horse. Many might disagree, but nothing, in my experience, happens in music without a clear deadline or goal, preferably one involving a paid gig.

3 x 45 is about standard but negotiate according to what you think is a reasonable hourly rate. In the UK, I would charge about 120USD for 3 45's. If they can only afford say 80USD, I'd play for 2 x 45's.

It might be worth coming in high and haggling down.

Don't play a second over or under what you have negotiated.

I know this is not how musicians think, but its how the client thinks. They think in terms of time and money, we think in terms of 'hey, I love to play music!'

Once the gig is secure, you have a clear focus for learning tunes and arrangements. Give yourself a month, which is reasonable notice for a gig. Use a loop pedal and an EHX freeze to pad it out if you have to.

For me it always has to be: gig first ($$$$ or more likely $) ---> practice repertoire for gig. Easier said than done for a jazz players ;-) The hard/irritating bit is getting the gig, the easy bit is working out how to play chord/melody jazz guitar.

**christianm77** · 03-18-2015, 06:00 PM

If you need to audition for the gig, two tunes, one fastish, one slowish will do.

A big difficulty for solo jazz guitar is that it can all sound a bit wishy washy. Make a point of learning something swinging and major key for every ballad - restaurant guys often ask for something 'upbeat.'

**pamosmusic** · 03-18-2015, 07:27 PM

Purely considering time (ie not money)... I am strict generally about 45-50 min sets. I think after three sets of that length you might be making a bass player or trumpet player a little tired. Same goes for yourself if it's a solo gig. As for money ... Standards gigs at a restaurant are often cheap work and not necessarily for no reason. If it's a very cool place where the owners are laid back and I get food and they'll publicize the gig well and the crowds into it (and into it to the point where I can leave out business cards and people take them) then I'll do a long restaurant gig for cheap. I really gauge it by how interested I am and whether I can pick up a fan or more work. Stodgy fancy bar where people order $25 glasses of scotch and treat you like furniture I charge by the hour. Hip little hole in the wall where people come up between songs and chat and want to make requests. Different story.

**christianm77** · 03-18-2015, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Purely considering time (ie not money)... I am strict generally about 45-50 min sets. I think after three sets of that length you might be making a bass player or trumpet player a little tired. Same goes for yourself if it's a solo gig. As for money ... Standards gigs at a restaurant are often cheap work and not necessarily for no reason. If it's a very cool place where the owners are laid back and I get food and they'll publicize the gig well and the crowds into it (and into it to the point where I can leave out business cards and people take them) then I'll do a long restaurant gig for cheap. I really gauge it by how interested I am and whether I can pick up a fan or more work. Stodgy fancy bar where people order $25 glasses of scotch and treat you like furniture I charge by the hour. Hip little hole in the wall where people come up between songs and chat and want to make requests. Different story.

45mins are standard where I am too.

I commonly do 3x45's with full band (not my hustle). I am usually happy to do this, but the trumpeter (whose gig it is) is usually moaning by the end. Bass players learn not to moan in exchange for buckets of gigs. :-)

I think that's a good point here, sometimes it's worth working for less if the gig offers something else. But I think the fees I quoted are reasonable in the UK for a solo performer - it might be different elsewhere....

**christianm77** · 03-18-2015, 07:57 PM

BTW I assumed the original post was regarding a solo gig.

**cosmic gumbo** · 03-18-2015, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by rickshapiro

My rock gigs are usually three sets of 50 minutes

That's a pretty average length gig for most circumstances.

**rickshapiro** · 03-19-2015, 11:40 AM

Thanks for the feedback, I am working towards a solo gig. I am expecting it will take me a year to get up to speed given that I am starting from scratch. It has been a life long, as of yet, unrealized dream to be able to do a full gig on my own. Meaning roughly two-three hours of fully memorized/improvised chord solos.

I plan to solicit coffee houses, restaurants, bars, libraries, book stores that do not, have not and would not in the long run consider hiring compensated entertainment. I do not want to eat into the paying gigs of other musicians, specially while I am getting up to speed and "paying" my dues. I am not expecting to make a living out of this.

For a living, I deliver very complex multi-year and multi-million dollar projects. I am going to take the same formal approach to reaching my musical goals. It means some serious planing which is why I am attempting to understand the scope of what is needed including how many songs and how long I need to play for

**christianm77** · 03-19-2015, 12:48 PM

Personally as a someone who currently derives most of his income from performance, I'd much rather you didn't work for free because it does undercut the pros, and I'm sure you're a good enough player (or will be) for the client. If you are hustling a new gig, then it's really not a problem.

(If on the other hand you are a good enough player to play in recognised venues, I and I think most professionals would have no problem with your doing that - I know many players who have day jobs, and some are better than many pros.)

But there are arguments for and against.

Re: paying your dues. I do know some pretty awful players who get some very plum gigs. Payment for a gig is not related to actual ability, it's related to the amount of work you do to get it :-) That's why most pro guitarists spend at least as much time in front of the phone and the computer as they do actually practicing. But that's booking tours and so on for a year or two down the line, managing social media, and so on.

(Obv. a bit different for sidemen/women, who are booked on their musicianship. Guitarists - and by this I mean some of my country's top players - do have to hustle much of the time, especially for jazz gigs.)

On the other hand, the amount I actually get paid for a pub or restaurant gig has remained constant from my beginner days, and is unlikely to increase as I improve. That's the nature of the beast.

If you want a solo gig, I think you should insist on payment for your time. I'm sure you'll do the necessary work. After all there are few truly full time pro players in jazz - most of take on teaching work etc to the pay the bills.

People have to be educated to value music.

**christianm77** · 03-19-2015, 12:57 PM

I can't resist posting this. Pretty strongly worded, I warn you now.

My own position is a bit softer, and I do take unpaid or poorly paid gigs if (and only if) it's a project I feel passionate about, but I do wonder if we all had more integrity regarding payment, whether we'd have all these issues with getting paid for gigs....

In any case, you should be able to get money for playing pretty old songs.

**rickshapiro** · 03-19-2015, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Personally as a someone who currently derives most of his income from performance, I'd much rather you didn't work for free because it does undercut the pros, and I'm sure you're a good enough player (or will be) for the client. If you are hustling a new gig, then it's really not a problem.

(If on the other hand you are a good enough player to play in recognised venues, I and I think most professionals would have no problem with your doing that - I know many players who have day jobs, and some are better than many pros.)

But there are arguments for and against.

Re: paying your dues. I do know some pretty awful players who get some very plum gigs. Payment for a gig is not related to actual ability, it's related to the amount of work you do to get it :-) That's why most pro guitarists spend at least as much time in front of the phone and the computer as they do actually practicing. But that's booking tours and so on for a year or two down the line, managing social media, and so on.

(Obv. a bit different for sidemen/women, who are booked on their musicianship. Guitarists - and by this I mean some of my country's top players - do have to hustle much of the time, especially for jazz gigs.)

On the other hand, the amount I actually get paid for a pub or restaurant gig has remained constant from my beginner days, and is unlikely to increase as I improve. That's the nature of the beast.

If you want a solo gig, I think you should insist on payment for your time. I'm sure you'll do the necessary work. After all there are few truly full time pro players in jazz - most of take on teaching work etc to the pay the bills.

People have to be educated to value music.

I am trying to be considerate of those that make a living doing this by seeking places that do not, have not and will not have paid entertainment. I was hoping that would be enough not to impact others that truly make a living. I.E a book store, cafe, etc.. If taking token payment such as a "free meal" or "drinks" helps then perhaps I will do that.

**christianm77** · 03-19-2015, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by rickshapiro

I am trying to be considerate of those that make a living doing this by seeking places that do not, have not and will not have paid entertainment. I was hoping that would be enough not to impact others that truly make a living. I.E a book store, cafe, etc.. If taking token payment such as a "free meal" or "drinks" helps then perhaps I will do that.

It's just my tuppence worth, and I can see that you are trying to be considerate about this. Other people may have different takes on it - what do others think?

**mr. beaumont** · 03-19-2015, 01:40 PM

I think you should still negotiate something, hopefully, you're providing a service that brings people in and gets them to spend money. That means you're an employee on a job for the time you're playing, and employees get paid.

I played a small struggling coffee house for years that understood that, and they always paid me a bit (in addition to having a tip jar), and fed me/gave me free coffee. Good people. Sadly, they didn't make it, too many Starbucks' in the neighborhood. People would rather drink bad coffee in a paper cup and run out that drink good coffee out of an actual mug, I guess.

If the place has a liquor license--they're making money. DO NOT EVER play for free at a bar/club. Once you set that precedent, you will never get paid, nor will anybody else after you.

**rickshapiro** · 03-19-2015, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

It's just my tuppence worth, and I can see that you are trying to be considerate about this. Other people may have different takes on it - what do others think?

I guess I could play devils advocate on my own position and say that any musician playing anywhere (with the exception for charity) without compensation has a negative impact on those that rely on compensation. Or perhaps it is only detrimental in the situation when a musicians performance financially benefits a commercial interest without any compensation going towards the musician.

In my mindset right now, my compensation will be my joy of playing for others and accomplishing a long term desire. I do want to find a way of doing this without impacting working musicians. I do want to be careful as I have great respect for those that make music a career.

I do play a few times a month in a rock band at clubs that pay fairly well, although that money still barely pays for my gas, food and drinks. The sound and light guy makes more then me. I can only do this because I make money through the misery of my day time job.

Anyway I would be interested in what others think.

**monk** · 03-19-2015, 02:27 PM

rickshapiro,

If you want to play for nothing, I'm certain that there are a number of assisted living facilities, nursing homes and veteran's homes in your area that are are full of older people who would love to hear the music of their collective youth. There are also probably charities in your vicinity that hold yearly fund raisers as well as service organizations that have monthly dinner or breakfast meetings where you could volunteer your services. When I was making my bones I played a boatload of these things.

If you approach restaurants, bars or coffee houses and offer to play "because you love it', even if they have never had live music before, you will poison the well for anyone who comes in behind you and you'll be creating a situation that will definitely affect the working musicians in your immediate area. If you want to be truly polite and considerate to the local musicians, do not work for nothing. Restaurant and club owners talk among themselves just as musicians and tradesmen do. It only takes a few people working for nothing in a small to mid-sized city to mess things up for everyone.

Regards,
Jerome

**Cunamara** · 03-19-2015, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think you should still negotiate something, hopefully, you're providing a service that brings people in and gets them to spend money. That means you're an employee on a job for the time you're playing, and employees get paid.

This is an incorrect set of assumptions IMHO and they are repeated often by musicians. My critiques will sound harsh... well, because they are to be honest.

1. Few people go out to hear jazz any more. Sorry to say it, but supply far exceeds demand for jazz musicians. Out presence at a bar, restaurant, coffee shop, etc., does not necessarily bring in anyone. In fact, having jazz in a bar, restaurant, etc., is probably as likely to drive customers out as to bring them in. I've seen customers get up and leave once a band starts paying many times (I've done it myself when I thought the band sucked).

2. We're not employees. We're vendors. We're there to add value and the value the venue is looking for is measured in dollars and cents (unless they're just having us there because they like us or our music).

3. If the venue is going to pay us, we have to bring in enough people in order to offset the fee the venue pays. If they pay us $100, then we need to bring in enough customers *that they would not have already had* to generate at least $100 extra *in profits.* So a coffee shop needs to sell 100 extra cups of coffee during our gig. If we can't guarantee that, then perhaps we shouldn't be asking for a $100 fee.

4. The jazz musicians I know who do successfully make a living at this do now they will bring in 50 or more customers who are coming specifically to see them. They can request and get a reasonable fee from the venue as a result.

The very simple truth is that very few jazz musicians can make a living from performance that rises above the poverty level. If you talk to folk, jazz, bluegrass, rock, country, etc., musicians they will tell you the same thing. This is no different than it was in years past except for getting squeezed by inflation. A local well-known blues guy told me that he usually got $300 for a quartet gig in 1970 and he usually got $300 for a quartet gig in 2012. Used to be he could make a living on 1-2 gigs a week but now he'd need 12 gigs a week to make the same living.

**Jonah** · 03-20-2015, 11:07 AM

I would add that commercial obligations are not always for profit but they also bring an agreement into a material form.
When it is payed both parties are more concentrated on their obligations.

I had a case - not connected with gigs - there was a luthier, quite good one, but he always delayed the work.. I did not like this approach when he invented differrent childish reasons to delay it again... never called me himself etc.

So once I gave about 30% in advance - oh how he tried to reject it! - but I insisted... and what do you think? When he accepted he said: wait... let us put all the terms down not to forget it.. and after that he improved musch with terms.

You do not have to be a business shark.. but people (especially in business) respect when you can name reasonable and explainable price for your time and work. For them it is another argument that you are reliable in your business.

**christianm77** · 03-20-2015, 03:42 PM

Cunamara, your critique is familiar, but I think it is defeatist, and is only part of the truth as I have experienced it. To give some perspective I play on average around 200 gigs a year, and I know many players who do more. All my gigs, pretty much, are jazz gigs of one type of another. As I said, the most of my income is from performance.