The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: Backing Tracks for live gigs

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  • Agreed

    40 36.36%
  • Disagreed

    70 63.64%
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  1. #201
    destinytot Guest
    I'm all for Augmented Reality on live gigs.

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  3. #202

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    I was reading a review of a Taylor Swift concert the other day (someone's got to do it), and it sounded as if she only had a live band on stage part of the time, some of the performance was with a backing track:

    "There were no musical revelations from the new material, no nuance or interpretation from the CD-like backing tracks and band. Swift seemed content to repeat the album's performances, metronomic and dutiful..."

    I find it incredible that people will now pay shed-loads of money to see someone without a real band on stage, and not feel short-changed. But I suppose it's now the norm for these sort of pop stars.

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I was reading a review of a Taylor Swift concert the other day (someone's got to do it), and it sounded as if she only had a live band on stage part of the time, some of the performance was with a backing track:

    "There were no musical revelations from the new material, no nuance or interpretation from the CD-like backing tracks and band. Swift seemed content to repeat the album's performances, metronomic and dutiful..."

    I find it incredible that people will now pay shed-loads of money to see someone without a real band on stage, and not feel short-changed. But I suppose it's now the norm for these sort of pop stars.
    It is the norm for any money-making musical venture. Broadway shows now use smaller groups with backing tracks, U2 uses backing tracks, Englebert Humperdinck uses backing tracks. None of this is jazz, of course, but jazzers have gotten accustomed to being financially screwed.

    As far as interaction goes, a duo with some backing tracks (either prerecorded or looped in real time) experiences interaction, improvisation and creativity. And, as I have admitted before, I would rather be accompanied by my own backing tracks with good time and good changes than suffer the playing of an insensitive drummer or out-of-tune bassist. Of course, the backing tracks will never come close to a really good live band, especially in a "jazz" context, whatever that may be. From the standpoint of business and cultural reality, technology is here to stay.

  5. #204

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    I will always prefer a good musician play over backing tracks over a scars musician playing with a full band, but that's just me.

    Sandro
    I will prefer printed copy of masterpiece painting to mediocre original painting...

    but most I would prefer when they use possibilities of printing technolgy to create special and originbal piece of art....

  6. #205

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    And, as I have admitted before, I would rather be accompanied by my own backing tracks with good time and good changes than suffer the playing of an insensitive drummer or out-of-tune bassist
    what's good about playing with people - even lousy players - that with people you never know how it will turn... today he's insensitive drummer but probably after playing with you a couple of times he'll get the vibe... maybe not...
    I mean there's always chance for surprise in it ...

  7. #206

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    I just don't understand everybody is talking about the lack of interaction with other musicians when you use backing tracks, but a solo guitarist doesn't interact with anybody but is okay for him to play alone?? What about the player himself, isn't he an element of surprise? I constantly go around Boston and you can see drummers playing on buckets alone and people still appreciate and give them money wile other are singing over a backing track putting together a show and if you are good and people appreciate that's all it matter. The tricky part is to create an audience because when you have an audience you will have the interaction you need to be inspire and express yourself to a deeper level therefore have more fun.

    Sandro

  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandro
    I just don't understand everybody is talking about the lack of interaction with other musicians when you use backing tracks, but a solo guitarist doesn't interact with anybody but is okay for him to play alone?? What about the player himself, isn't he an element of surprise? I constantly go around Boston and you can see drummers playing on buckets alone and people still appreciate and give them money wile other are singing over a backing track putting together a show and if you are good and people appreciate that's all it matter. The tricky part is to create an audience because when you have an audience you will have the interaction you need to be inspire and express yourself to a deeper level therefore have more fun.

    Sandro

    +1

  9. #208

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    solo playing does not presume interecation... because it's solo

    I do not like backing track when it is there to imitate live player...

    it is that simle, just that simple, and nothing else...

  10. #209

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    Playing with lousy players is a nightmare, period. Backing tracks created by the player do not imitate a live player, they ARE a live player, recorded. Same with real-time looping.

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Playing with lousy players is a nightmare, period. Backing tracks created by the player do not imitate a live player, they ARE a live player, recorded. Same with real-time looping.
    So what. I still don't like 'em.

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Playing with lousy players is a nightmare, period. Backing tracks created by the player do not imitate a live player, they ARE a live player, recorded. Same with real-time looping.
    I like to think of my solo guitar as recorded music, only live.

  13. #212

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    Just to be clear - solo players are interacting.

    With the audience, with the acoustic space, with the flow of the piece, and the moment.

    It's shocking how so many are willing to write-off the value of a human being creating music in the moment with listeners.

    I was lucky to come up at a time where the band was live and the jukebox was for breaks.
    Last edited by rictroll; 06-29-2015 at 11:56 PM.

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Backing tracks created by the player do not imitate a live player, they ARE a live player
    No they aren't. If you play a particular accent or riff, a live rhythm section can respond to it and play something in return, creating a dialogue. A backing track will just chug away regardless with no response to the dynamics of what you are playing. That's boring.

    As for the lousy players, why do you hire them? Don't you know who the decent players are? I don't understand it.

    Maybe the scene is different here in Europe or something, but I have been going to jazz gigs in the UK for 30 years and I have never seen any musician using a backing track. The nearest I have seen is John Etheridge and Paul Malsom using a live looper on one tune only. And I have seen John Surman using some kind of synth loop, but he was constantly transforming it, recording himself then playing along to it, applying delays to it etc. Not like a static backing track.

  15. #214

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    I think I voted on something random - the question was a real hanging chad.

  16. #215

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    I'm thinking maybe jazz puppet show could take backing tracks to the next level....


  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I'm thinking maybe jazz puppet show could take backing tracks to the next level....

    How do you mean? They do great job on that song - maybe a bit schmaltzy but good schmaltzy.

  18. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    I really don't think that arranging, even with a computer program, is less creative than performing, unless the arrangements are record copies. The hardest parts of making good backing tracks are avoiding the metronomic, canned feel, which can be ameliorated by actually playing the bass, rhythm guitar, and/or percussion as part of the track; and getting really high-quality samples (real recorded sounds, not synth simulations) for your orchestrations. The other upside of doing your own is that you can change them over time, bringing is modulations, lengthening or shortening them, creating medleys, and in doing so, keeping them somewhat fresh. I find that adding a player or two also goes a very long way towards making a good presentation, creating a bit of the interaction that good music needs. Having said that, I would never use my tracks on a "jazz" gig or a concert; they are for casuals, parties and functions. In the summertime here in the Northeast, the demand for "calypso" music with steel drums is huge, but the budgets are not in keeping with the scarcity of pan players, so I often sell a calypso/Island act as a duo with backing tracks just to be able to pay the pan player what the market demands, which is in the $400-500 range.

    Backing tracks are also useful for practicing, as Abersold proved decades ago, but I have never utilized commercial tracks for my gigs.
    Ron: Thank you, Your post is a pretty good description of some of the capabilities of the newer versions of Band-In-A- Box. The program is a great tool for studying and practicing.

    wiz

  19. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    No they aren't. If you play a particular accent or riff, a live rhythm section can respond to it and play something in return, creating a dialogue. A backing track will just chug away regardless with no response to the dynamics of what you are playing. That's boring.

    As for the lousy players, why do you hire them? Don't you know who the decent players are? I don't understand it.

    Maybe the scene is different here in Europe or something, but I have been going to jazz gigs in the UK for 30 years and I have never seen any musician using a backing track. The nearest I have seen is John Etheridge and Paul Malsom using a live looper on one tune only. And I have seen John Surman using some kind of synth loop, but he was constantly transforming it, recording himself then playing along to it, applying delays to it etc. Not like a static backing track.

    So what? Frisell uses loopers all the time. And a static backing track is still far superior to a bad player, period. As for hiring only good players, budget and availability are a real factor. I know ALL the decent players, and they are in high demand, thus not always available. Last week, for instance, I lost the bassist AND drummer the day before the Friday night gig, and not a single accomplished player was available for a rather demanding gig. I didn't have tracks ready for this act, and the result was two players far below the level needed, and a below-par performance . And yes, the scene in Europe is quite different.

    By the way, backing tracks can be easily changed, adjusted or even accented with the right technology, but that isn't the point, at all. If one depends on playing for a living, as I do, one finds solutions to the problems of low budgets or lack of top-level players. As I've pointed out before, I don't use tracks for jazz concert gigs. I do use them to make a living on background, function or party gigs, and I enjoy hearing good time and changes. The looper allows lots of creativity, and I have seen several gifted performers utilizing that technology in a very cool, creative way.

    If you are a full-time player making a decent living without technology, good for you. If you are not dependent on performing to pay the bills, then you may never bother with it. But I have been a pro for 50 years, and I need to fund my lifestyle, thus I refuse to split $250 up among 3 to play a gig where the music is not the prime interest and where the function or buyer may actually be better served with just me and tracks. Boring? Not for me, or that audience. My tracks swing, have dynamics, modulations, and real intros and endings. I've played many hundreds of jazz trio and quartet gigs with the likes of George Coleman, Teddy Wilson, Alan Dawson, Gray Sargent, etc., and I do 80 concerts a year with a 6-piece African/fusion group which happens to include one of Yo Yo Ma's Silk Road members, who, by the way, uses a looper on his balafon. Not every gig needs to be the World Series, you know, and if I choose to play with loopers and tracks on 25% of my 200+ gigs a year, that's what I will do.

    By the way, the exact same discussion raged for years about amplification.

  20. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    I don't use tracks for jazz concert gigs.
    Well I think we're in agreement on that point.

    I can see where you would use them on the other types of gigs.

  21. #220

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    The problem with this thread is that the OP did not actually ask a question, so the responses are coming in all across the board. At this point, I am not sure what was being asked either; a great example of how NOT to conduct a poll, I guess.

  22. #221
    destinytot Guest
    "$250 between three? Luxury!" Cue the Four Yorkshiremen

  23. #222

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    Ron - I saw Bill Frisell in a night spot in Manhattan back in the late Eighties playing solo with a looper and he was quite inventive. I realize that there are many situations where you can expand a solo gig's possibilities with use of a looper. Is there one that you think is more versatile than the others or favor?

    I intend to try and get down to see you finally this Friday in Providence. Hope the weather cooperates. What do you do in case of rain assuming you play outside?

  24. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeSF
    The problem with this thread is that the OP did not actually ask a question, so the responses are coming in all across the board. At this point, I am not sure what was being asked either; a great example of how NOT to conduct a poll, I guess.
    Is the OP asking do we use tracks or is he asking is it OK in general to use them? It's not clear. I'm not into tracks but I could care less if other people use them.
    These days I think there's some interest in the creative process. For example- the way Ed Sheeran uses looping. Besides that I think the audience is only interested in the end result and they don't care how musicians get there.

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    ... I think the audience is only interested in the end result and they don't care how musicians get there.
    Hah, you're probably right about that. It's the musicians who work hard at sounding good, without tracks, who are most likely irritated by the ones that are "cheating".

  26. #225
    destinytot Guest
    In the right hands...