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View Poll Results: Backing Tracks for live gigs

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  1. #176
    Went to a funeral for a veteran yesterday. As always, I really appreciated the ceremony of it all with the servicemen, presentation of the flag to the family etc.

    Anyway, I noticed that a recording of "Taps" was played on an electronic device. I've seen this done at other veterans' funerals, but this time, the electronic device was in the bell of an imitation bugle which the serviceman put to his mouth as if he were playing his "bugle".

    Not really bothered by it. Just found it peculiar and kind of surreal. I wonder if anyone other than a musician would even think anything of it.

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  3. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Anyway, I noticed that a recording of "Taps" was played on an electronic device. I've seen this done at other veterans' funerals, but this time, the electronic device was in the bell of an imitation bugle which the serviceman put to his mouth as if he were playing his "bugle".
    That is odd. I've never witnessed such a thing. Do you think the guy could actually play a bugle???? (Some great singers have lip-synched the National Anthem to make sure the audience gets a 'perfect' take.)

  4. #178
    I would assume not. At my grandfather's funeral, they pushed a button on a non-bugle-shaped device. It's really strange, but even as a musician, for me, I think there's something a little less awkward about the guy in uniform playing the pretend bugle, as opposed the SAME guy just pushing the button. I guess because of the ceremony of the occasion. Just looks better for some reason?

    Of course the real thing at every veteran's funeral would be ideal, but that's not happening.

  5. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I would assume not. At my grandfather's funeral, they pushed a button on a non-bugle-shaped device. It's really strange, but even as a musician, for me, I think there's something a little less awkward about the guy in uniform playing the pretend bugle, as opposed the SAME guy just pushing the button. I guess because of the ceremony of the occasion. Just looks better for some reason?

    Of course the real thing at every veteran's funeral would be ideal, but that's not happening.
    I agree that it looks better and it gives the congregation a focal point if they want one. (When people push a button to produce music, people may not object but they don't normally watch the machine. At least the man holding the bugle is human and grieving.)

  6. #180

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    Went to a street festival friday. Two performers, one a guy with a great set of pipes, doing Sinatra, Bennett, Tom Jones, with tracks. About 6 people watching.

    Half a block away, a guy playing an accordion (barely) and singing the same stuff, not nearly as good of a singer. Crowd of at least 50 people, laughing, singing along, having a blast.

    Instruments draw a crowd?

  7. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Went to a street festival friday. Two performers, one a guy with a great set of pipes, doing Sinatra, Bennett, Tom Jones, with tracks. About 6 people watching.

    Half a block away, a guy playing an accordion (barely) and singing the same stuff, not nearly as good of a singer. Crowd of at least 50 people, laughing, singing along, having a blast.

    Instruments draw a crowd?
    Maybe those 50 people couldn't believe people still played accordions in public... ;o) (Just kidding!)

  8. #182

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    Anyway, I noticed that a recording of "Taps" was played on an electronic device. I've seen this done at other veterans' funerals, but this time, the electronic device was in the bell of an imitation bugle which the serviceman put to his mouth as if he were playing his "bugle".

    Not really bothered by it. Just found it peculiar and kind of surreal. I wonder if anyone other than a musician would even think anything of it.
    To my mind if this guy could play and was a trumpeter and it was just a way to secure the peformance quality .. it's not good..

    I served in brass band - not in US - but I played about 30 funerals or so.. and every duty service soldier in our band had to play common everyday bugle tunes and snare drum patterns because trumpeters and drummers are involved in some ceremonies or drills all the time so we had to substitute them...

    Probably it was also the way to sunstitue absent trumpeter?

    But you know I should say that even when these funerals became a routine and when we went there telling jokes or discussing girls.. (of course bfore the family sees us)...
    anyway there was a moment when you just felt that you had to do all seriously and at yur best... maybe after that you forget it in a minute but this short moment you have it personal every time.. and in this moment I would prefer not to play anything at all than fake bugle

  9. #183

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    The proliferation of canned music, in whatever form, is a symptom of convenience our culture has grown to expect. It's convenient for the musician, it's convenient for the venue and sometimes it's even convenient for the patron. That would seem like a win win win situation in many cases if one is thinking pragmatically. Perhaps a reasonable question to ask is, does an art form diminish due to pragmatism? before you say yes, consider that the music industry from day one has been about pragmatic solutions to deliver music to the masses. Record labels would have a roster of musicians on call to pump out as many records as possible, agents and managers would squeeze out as many dates as possible for touring acts etc, and with all that we had a flourishing culture of musicians and artists during the golden era of jazz.

    My opinion is that we have reached a point of diminishing returns. Things have gotten so convenient that we are experiencing a watered down effect when going out to see live music (using 'live' loosely here). Technology has made things easy and playing jazz is inherently not easy. This creates a schism in the minds of many musicians that appreciate the value of a talented jazz artist or ensemble. The paradox is that jazz presents an infinite number of musical probabilities one could encounter at a gig. It is part of what makes jazz exciting to the audience member. With canned music the possibilities are finite and painfully predictable to the ear. Predictable music is appreciated by many in different genres but it is antithetical to jazz, and merging the two elements causes consternation at the very least and projectile vomiting at its worst.
    Last edited by BigToe; 06-21-2015 at 09:47 PM.

  10. #184

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    That's really true... and this is very complex process.

    In general... I think that we are actually at kind of 'zero point'... one culture is gone - though we're still moved with inertion of its power... and another is not yet born...

  11. #185

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    We now live in a world of the iPhone DJ...if a club cannot pay for a trio and a solo guitarist wants to play over a canned bass track at a wallpaper gig(if i am understanding the premise of the thread), who the hell cares? Has music been dealt a death knell because of it? Seriously, people who feel so anti-backing track, please don't use them, but at least try to get over the fact that they exist.

    On a similar note, I incorporated a looper last year for my duo gigs to get another layer, and it's allowing me more freedom to stack harmonies, to solo over a bassline, even create some guitar percussion effects if needed.
    Last edited by mikeSF; 06-22-2015 at 03:08 AM.

  12. #186
    destinytot Guest
    Why stop at backing tracks? ("Dancing robots, will you please wait in the wings? We're only auditioning singing
    robots now.")

  13. #187

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    the elephant in the room...


  14. #188
    destinytot Guest

  15. #189

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    We now live in a world of the iPhone DJ...if a club cannot pay for a trio and a solo guitarist wants to play over a canned bass track at a wallpaper gig(if i am understanding the premise of the thread), who the hell cares? Has music been dealt a death knell because of it? Seriously, people who feel so anti-backing track, please don't use them, but at least try to get over the fact that they exist.

    On a similar note, I incorporated a looper last year for my duo gigs to get another layer, and it's allowing me more freedom to stack harmonies, to solo over a bassline, even create some guitar percussion effects if needed.

    you see.. I think there's difference in how we treat it...

    it's not backing track that makes a problem
    what is bad is the feeling of 'fake' which comes form the idea that there's something that trie to imitate or emulate something true...

    Do you know the feeling when you see obviously foam ceiling fillet imitating real clay or stucco mouldigs?

    You feel decieved.. and if it concerns arts it ruins all the positive effect... it kills all that made the performance convincing.

    this idea of 'substitution of truth' is of course the part of personal perception and depends much on cultural context, education and many other factors...


    but as far as it concerns a performer I think it is important to use all these tools as they are, not to imitate something that is not present but on the contrary to try to involve them in process openly, try to use their functions for your own benifit...

    Great Glenn Gould whe he moved to the studio work was often critisized for cutting and editing final track form a few takes... because recording was considered a poor imitation of live performance.. a compromise..
    But he rejected this approach, he said: if I can make the track more live more true more convincing with the help of recording director - why should I stop? I am making record, I am not imitating playing live...

    This is really creative approach.

  16. #190
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    you see.. I think there's difference in how we treat it...

    it's not backing track that makes a problem
    what is bad is the feeling of 'fake' which comes form the idea that there's something that trie to imitate or emulate something true...

    Do you know the feeling when you see obviously foam ceiling fillet imitating real clay or stucco mouldigs?

    You feel decieved.. and if it concerns arts it ruins all the positive effect... it kills all that made the performance convincing.

    this idea of 'substitution of truth' is of course the part of personal perception and depends much on cultural context, education and many other factors...


    but as far as it concerns a performer I think it is important to use all these tools as they are, not to imitate something that is not present but on the contrary to try to involve them in process openly, try to use their functions for your own benifit...

    Great Glenn Gould whe he moved to the studio work was often critisized for cutting and editing final track form a few takes... because recording was considered a poor imitation of live performance.. a compromise..
    But he rejected this approach, he said: if I can make the track more live more true more convincing with the help of recording director - why should I stop? I am making record, I am not imitating playing live...

    This is really creative approach.
    Marvelous post, Jonah - thank you.

    I particularly like how you've separated approaches based on the ersatz, which disappoint, from creative ones, which augment or enhance an aesthetic experience.

    And surely backing tracks are part of the former?

    I wanted to try and make a joke about Joaquin Phoenix's character 'embracing technology' in the movie Her, but then it occurred to me that there's too much truth in that.

    Besides, the next humanoid robot - 'Pepper II' - may very well be some kind of - ahem - 'pleasure model'...

    So regarding the use of backing tracks, a word to the wise: mind you don't confuse audiences by sending the wrong signals - or they might start humping your amp!
    Last edited by destinytot; 06-22-2015 at 10:29 AM.

  17. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    ....

    Do you know the feeling when you see obviously foam ceiling fillet imitating real clay or stucco mouldigs?

    You feel decieved.. and if it concerns arts it ruins all the positive effect..
    can't say that i do. what a bizarre analogy.

    I think you are overthinking the issue. Regardless, you should at least feel that your own music is much more "genuine" because you do not use backing tracks. right? sweet.

  18. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Marvelous post, Jonah - thank you.

    I particularly like how you've separated approaches based on the ersatz, which disappoint, from creative ones, which augment or enhance an aesthetic experience.

    And surely backing tracks are part of the former?

    I wanted to try and make a joke about Joaquin Phoenix's character 'embracing technology' in the movie Her, but then it occurred to me that there's too much truth in that.

    Besides, the next humanoid robot - 'Pepper II' - may very well be some kind of - ahem - 'pleasure model'...

    So regarding the use of backing tracks, a word to the wise: mind you don't confuse audiences by sending the wrong signals - or they might start humping your amp!
    Backing tracks created from scratch by the performer are also part of the creative process, and anything but ersatz.

  19. #193

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    can't say that i do. what a bizarre analogy.

    I think you are overthinking the issue. Regardless, you should at least feel that your own music is much more "genuine" because you do not use backing tracks. right? sweet.
    I am just thinking.. not my fault that for you it's over-thinking (just kidding)

    I am using looper - not really often.. you can read higher in thos thread I described how use it

    the analogy came from architecture...
    I do not find it bizzare...
    I love visual arts and spend quite a lot of time studying early architecture.. one of the most obvious thing to notice is that the decay of style begins when they begin to fake material..
    or when construction looks lighter that it visually should be...
    Of course this feeling is personal (as I also said)... there are people for whom this Sacre Coere Church in Paris is beautiful Bizantine Style ... well ... I can't help it...
    In my city not long ago there was a restauration of baroque garden.. they substitued all the early sculptures of marble with copies that look plastic... some people are shocked.. some come and say: beautiful.. I want one near my country house..
    I don't blame them... they are sincere.. bbt I don't have to share their excitement


    My idea was not to criticize using backing tracks - on the contrary - I wanted to say that it is absolutely new means that require new approach..

    And I feel decieved when someone uses backing track trying to imitate live absent live player... I can live with that.. but that will most probably spoil the impression

    If you so not have money for marble .. take cheaper material and use its qualities to make beautiful piece of art.. but please do not try to paint it to look like marble
    Last edited by Jonah; 06-22-2015 at 03:02 PM.

  20. #194

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    Backing tracks created from scratch by the performer are also part of the creative process, and anything but ersatz.
    some process are creative, and some are less creative...

  21. #195
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Backing tracks created from scratch by the performer are also part of the creative process, and anything but ersatz.
    A very good point, and an important distinction. Thanks for pointing it out.

  22. #196

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    I really don't think that arranging, even with a computer program, is less creative than performing, unless the arrangements are record copies. The hardest parts of making good backing tracks are avoiding the metronomic, canned feel, which can be ameliorated by actually playing the bass, rhythm guitar, and/or percussion as part of the track; and getting really high-quality samples (real recorded sounds, not synth simulations) for your orchestrations. The other upside of doing your own is that you can change them over time, bringing is modulations, lengthening or shortening them, creating medleys, and in doing so, keeping them somewhat fresh. I find that adding a player or two also goes a very long way towards making a good presentation, creating a bit of the interaction that good music needs. Having said that, I would never use my tracks on a "jazz" gig or a concert; they are for casuals, parties and functions. In the summertime here in the Northeast, the demand for "calypso" music with steel drums is huge, but the budgets are not in keeping with the scarcity of pan players, so I often sell a calypso/Island act as a duo with backing tracks just to be able to pay the pan player what the market demands, which is in the $400-500 range.

    Backing tracks are also useful for practicing, as Abersold proved decades ago, but I have never utilized commercial tracks for my gigs.

  23. #197

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    For rehearsal purposes it is helpful to have backing tracks created in Sibelius for me to enjoy rehearsing. And I also enjoy the process of creating bass or piano or other instrumental tracks for its intrinsic musical value. It is perhaps like a painter enjoys blending colors in a landscape painting. Nothing replaces a live band or musicians, of course. And one can never get a totally spontaneous feel with software instruments. But that is not really the objective, though some high end composers do TV and movie themes with sophisticated software.

    And I can never find good musicians hanging around my house at four in the morning.

  24. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    And I can never find good musicians hanging around my house at four in the morning.
    Free booze might help that situation. ;o)

  25. #199

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    I will always prefer a good musician play over backing tracks over a scars musician playing with a full band, but that's just me.

    Sandro

  26. #200

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    Well, I think it's time to utilize 2015 technology and rather than just use backing tracks, we can use tracks and stream our perfrmances right from our living room to a screen at the venue. That way we can totally avoid the bothersome chore of interacting with other people face to fface....kinda like internet forums...so safe and sterile. Virtual reality....