View Poll Results: Backing Tracks for live gigs

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    27 33.75%
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  1. #151

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    I wonder how EOE's booking process goes. "I charge $3,000 for the gig and I play with an ipod. No, you cannot hear any samples or clips because my playing is too priceless for your peasant club owner ears."

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  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave70 View Post
    Poor Sandro... well at least I didn't leave a comment. Oh wait... ooops!
    Since Sandro's first posting started a 9 page shit storm, and his second thread has launched a 6 page shit storm regarding the exact same topic. And, in contrast to the first conversation, he's remained utterly silent on this thread while the two Siamese fighting fish kill each other (go watch the Connery Bonds). So, I'm wondering if at least this thread was some revenge trolling. If so, well played sir.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by ingeneri View Post
    Since Sandro's first posting started a 9 page shit storm, and his second thread has launched a 6 page shit storm regarding the exact same topic. And, in contrast to the first conversation, he's remained utterly silent on this thread while the two Siamese fighting fish kill each other (go watch the Connery Bonds). So, I'm wondering if at least this thread was some revenge trolling. If so, well played sir.
    Hi Ingeneri,

    No, this wasn't a revenge post at all. I knew that, on the "Other" post everybody express their opinion, included me, and there was nothing to be add, and the questions and answers start to be redundant, and nobody was adding something new to the thread. But I know there are forumates that are silent, and don't give their opinion, so I thought to create another thread with a poll so we could include them as well, in fact I wrote "you don't need to leave a comment".....well....it didn't work.

    Sandro

  5. #154

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    Sandro, I hope the fact that I compared you to a bald nehru jacket wearing Bond villian with a cat conveyed that I was being tounge in cheeck.

  6. #155
    destinytot Guest
    Actually, I've just thought of a memorable instance of using a backing track to good effect.

    It was in 1981, at the Hot Brass, near Aix-en-Provence. A Sonny Stitt album was being played over the house PA during the band's break. The pianist went back to the piano and started playing along with the record. Then the bassist and drummer joined him. It sounded great, and I already thought it was pretty cool, but then... who should start playing the alto but Sonny Stitt himself. The record was faded out and that's how he started his set, playing with the (excellent) house trio.

  7. #156

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    In the US tracks are OK. Outside the US- probably not a good idea. Here in the US we like lot's of cheese to go with that whine.

  8. #157
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol View Post
    In the US tracks are OK. Outside the US- probably not a good idea. Here in the US we like lot's of cheese to go with that whine.
    Hah! I hadn't considered that such affective variables may be what drives some to capitulate to the Devil -humour intended. Seriously, I recently met an incredibly gifted multi-instrumentalist who integrates recorded music into live performances. It's not for me, but - in my view - he does it tastefully. (No cheese.)

  9. #158
    I know a guy who used to play in a 4 piece cover band but now he is in a pop music duo with backing tracks. He creates the tracks himself with keyboard midi and drum machine however the tracks are just basically bass & drums with a little keyboard so he doesn't overdo it however they are lame and sound cheezy. The drum machine sounds the worst. Everyone has told him this too. He doesn't gig that often and has a good day job so he doesn't care and he's having fun...good for him. I happen to be lucky and have a couple of good guys to play with and we don't gig that often in the winter (summer is busier) but we like to get together a couple of times a month to jam and keep our chops together for when we do the odd gig. To me this is way more fun than playing along to backing tracks. I mean we play some Cream songs in our set....could you imagine backing tracks for that????

  10. #159

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    EOE, Your policy is to be a jerk, and you follow it very closely.

  11. #160

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    Well, I have some stuff to contribute here, though it's back on topic I'm afraid - sorry to distract anyone from the gladiatorial combat goin' on on this thread.

    Backing tapes and drum machines/synth - Back in the '80's, when a synth riff and a bad haircut were enough to make you want to take on the world, I did one gig in an alternative rock band with a drum machine in a sax/guitar/bass line-up. Hated it. Too sterile for words. Sax player left, guitarist and I got a real drummer, experiment over.

    Except a couple of years later, the same sax'ist and I tried to do something using programmed drum machine/bass synth, which again wasn't working live. So I programmed the drumbox and bass synth and recorded them with keyboard that I'd actually played live, and prepared to go out using tapes of these backings. Didn't work - too unstable and unreliable. We did two gigs, one a private party anyway, and threw in the towel. Please bear in mind 1) this was in the field of rock, not jazz 2) these were original compositions. Why all this synth stuff? Well, where we were living, it was hard to find and hold onto muso's of any calibre. And it was the '80's, the decade that music forgot...or was that just fashion?

    Restaurant gigs. - Nowadays I do a duo gig - same as Destinytot, guitar and double bass. Would I improve it by adding backing tapes? Well, we appear to be sufficient for people while they're eating their meals. We've just gone to fortnightly from monthly, so we must be doing something right - or maybe we're cheap! However, previously there was a trio there, with drums - which people found too intrusive whilst having a social occasion, apparently. Adding more instruments to our line-up, even taped ones, might detract from the simple thing that we do. Plus, I'm sure that people see the archtop guitar and double bass and think "Ah, that's jazz!!" Something that backing tracks can't match - the visual aspect, or the "listening with your eyes" factor. This is usually seen as worthy of criticism in the Gear section of this forum, where audiences react better to a big old jazz box than a Tele; however, in this case, it's working for me.


    Now, back to the battle if you so wish.

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by mangotango View Post
    This is usually seen as worthy of criticism in the Gear section of this forum, where audiences react better to a big old jazz box than a Tele; however, in this case, it's working for me.
    Not to get off topic, but.

    Actually, yeah, let's get off this stale ass topic.

    It's interesting what you say there...because I agree completely...enough to the point of sharing this story.

    I played a restaurant last year, around Christmastime. It's a nice place, but not fancy--you could wear jeans and a polo or dress up if you wanted and still fit in fine...well anyway, the first time I played I was coming from a school function, so I was wearing a suit. I played my Heritage. Comments I got were the typical "I didn't think I liked jazz, but I really enjoyed listening to you" or my favorite "I really love jazz, I like to put it on when I'm reading or doing dishes or whatever..." (anything but pay attention to the music...but I digress)

    Two weeks later, I played the same place, and wore nice jeans and a sweater. I played my tele. I played pretty much exactly the same tunes.

    I actually had multiple folks say to me things like "I really enjoyed that...what kind of music do you call that?"

    Jazz has "a look."
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Because its the same thing as Kareoke. Even when the singer, or in this case--player--is good it's still square and cheesy at best.
    And yet, your tag line is "nothing is corny, if it swings". Can we not get a Guitareoke program to learn triplets, and minor syncopation?

  14. #163

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    Actually, my apologies here. I didn't realize this topic made it into 6 pages. I am quoting some rather old posts. Carry on.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Jazz has "a look."
    According to Buddy Bolden it has a smell, also. He called it 'Funky Butt".

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    According to Buddy Bolden it has a smell, also. He called it 'Funky Butt".
    Obviously what Zappa was referencing when he made his famous "jazz isn't dead" comment.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  17. #166

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    In so many ways I like the bass and jazz duo. The bass gives you a foundation and blends nicely with jazz guitar. Of course it varies with the venue, but I like that combo.

  18. #167

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    I have to take issue with mr beumont's remark:
    "Because its the same thing as Kareoke. Even when the singer, or in this case--player--is good it's still square and cheesy at best".

    As I stated in a similar thread:
    "Les Paul is held in high regard by many musicians.Does anyone here want to take him and his multi track live performances out front and center for a public whipping"?

    Now,I wouldn't include Les Paul among my favorite guitarists,but I do recognize and appreciate his talent,and his technological contributions.I certainly don't consider him "square and cheezy at best". I would also like to speak to the point many have made that "band in the can",backing tracks,and loopers take food off the table of other musicians.In almost every situation I personally know of,the restaurant/club owner (and I'm talking about small,independently owned places) couldn't afford to pay a duo,trio,quartet,or more-tet.Either that,or the room was too small to accommodate more than a soloist.If the money or space isn't there,what's the BFD? You aren't taking anything away from anyone if it's not there to begin with.Now I know that I'm posting on a guitar forum,but this is just a thought;what are you supposed to do if you find yourself in this situation and you're a flute player,or a horn player and you're not Rahsaan Roland Kirk?
    Last edited by redwun; 05-17-2015 at 08:59 PM.

  19. #168

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    Welll...again, being this a jazz page, i'm talking about jazz.

    Les Paul's multitracked stuff was pop music.

    And it was a hell of a lot more inventive than soloing over a backing track at the local spaghetti house.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  20. #169

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    Well....again,I have to disagree with you.This thread is also about using backing tracks on live performances,and Les Paul was just my example.Others referred to Metheny on the older,similar thread.Are you sure Les Paul never played jazz when he multi-tracked? I'm not,so I'm gonna play it safe and refrain from making such blatant statements.Les Paul played How High the Moon,and so do I,but we both approach this "jazz" standard quite differently.Am I going to say that when LP improvises over those changes he isn't playing jazz? Mehhh..I'll leave it to the purists and critics to pick the fly shit outta the pepper on that one."Pop" is such a weird term anyway.So many of the "jazz" standards we all play were once considered to be "pop" tunes.Is Benson no longer considered to be a "jazz" artist? Many people I know feel he went "pop" a long time ago.Regarding purists,someone correct me if I'm wrong,(and I know somebody will) but there's a story I remember reading about Segovia losing the respect he once had for George Van Eps when it came to his attention that Van Eps also played electric guitar."The electric guitar is an abomination"!!
    Alotta laughs those purists and critics.
    Last edited by redwun; 05-17-2015 at 11:33 PM.

  21. #170

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    Did Les Paul perform live with recorded parts?? I must have missed hearing about those shows.

  22. #171

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    I am not sure if using a looper can be considered like backing track of this kind?

    I did a couple of times like... it was just a try though .. but I liked it

    1) play kind of chord-melody solo intro
    2) then switch on record on looper and play walking bass chord comping in a way that it is still comping but also does not sound to boring... you have to consider that it is supposed to be comping but audience does not know that and listens to it as to completed music... fit might take a few takes to elaborate some ideas how to do it but not relly difficult (I have 5 min. record possible on looper so it's usually enough)
    3) then comping loop playback and I can play solo over it a couple of times
    4) then switch it off and go to just solo coda or something...

    I think it could work very nice if you use it with taste and caution...

    What I do not like is various rythm machines (including metronomes) - with live drummer or bass player you can communicate while playing through music.. they hear your ideas more or less and vice versa.. machine will just follow its track anyway....

    Of course looped comping also has this 'pre-determined' pattern.. but still it is played by human with human timing, played by myself for myself, and played just before soloing - so I kind of can feel and catch the idea of 'conversation with myself'

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by redwun View Post
    I would also like to speak to the point many have made that "band in the can",backing tracks,and loopers take food off the table of other musicians.In almost every situation I personally know of,the restaurant/club owner (and I'm talking about small,independently owned places) couldn't afford to pay a duo,trio,quartet,or more-tet.Either that,or the room was too small to accommodate more than a soloist.If the money or space isn't there,what's the BFD? You aren't taking anything away from anyone if it's not there to begin with.Now I know that I'm posting on a guitar forum,but this is just a thought;what are you supposed to do if you find yourself in this situation and you're a flute player,or a horn player and you're not Rahsaan Roland Kirk?
    In this situation, I would hope the owner would have the wisdom to hire a nice solo jazz guitarist rather than one of those noisy wind-blowing chaps.

  24. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I am not sure if using a looper can be considered like backing track of this kind?

    I did a couple of times like... it was just a try though .. but I liked it

    1) play kind of chord-melody solo intro
    2) then switch on record on looper and play walking bass chord comping in a way that it is still comping but also does not sound to boring... you have to consider that it is supposed to be comping but audience does not know that and listens to it as to completed music... fit might take a few takes to elaborate some ideas how to do it but not relly difficult (I have 5 min. record possible on looper so it's usually enough)
    3) then comping loop playback and I can play solo over it a couple of times
    4) then switch it off and go to just solo coda or something...

    I think it could work very nice if you use it with taste and caution...
    I've seen John Etheridge doing this and it worked quite well. He only used it on a couple of tunes though, the rest of the gig was totally solo playing.

  25. #174

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    I've seen John Etheridge doing this and it worked quite well. He only used it on a couple of tunes though, the rest of the gig was totally solo playing.
    I did it only for friends and family occasionaly at home.. I think if I had to do it for the gig I'd also choose 2- tunes from the set to use the looper...

  26. #175

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    I'm leaving for a gig in a few minutes on which I will use a looper, and it's a duo gig with steel drum/percussionist, so while I sing or he plays an initial melody, I'll comp chords and bass, then be able to solo over it. It is, if anything, MORE creative than playing with a bassist, unless the bassist is excellent.

  27. #176
    Went to a funeral for a veteran yesterday. As always, I really appreciated the ceremony of it all with the servicemen, presentation of the flag to the family etc.

    Anyway, I noticed that a recording of "Taps" was played on an electronic device. I've seen this done at other veterans' funerals, but this time, the electronic device was in the bell of an imitation bugle which the serviceman put to his mouth as if he were playing his "bugle".

    Not really bothered by it. Just found it peculiar and kind of surreal. I wonder if anyone other than a musician would even think anything of it.

  28. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Anyway, I noticed that a recording of "Taps" was played on an electronic device. I've seen this done at other veterans' funerals, but this time, the electronic device was in the bell of an imitation bugle which the serviceman put to his mouth as if he were playing his "bugle".
    That is odd. I've never witnessed such a thing. Do you think the guy could actually play a bugle???? (Some great singers have lip-synched the National Anthem to make sure the audience gets a 'perfect' take.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  29. #178
    I would assume not. At my grandfather's funeral, they pushed a button on a non-bugle-shaped device. It's really strange, but even as a musician, for me, I think there's something a little less awkward about the guy in uniform playing the pretend bugle, as opposed the SAME guy just pushing the button. I guess because of the ceremony of the occasion. Just looks better for some reason?

    Of course the real thing at every veteran's funeral would be ideal, but that's not happening.

  30. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I would assume not. At my grandfather's funeral, they pushed a button on a non-bugle-shaped device. It's really strange, but even as a musician, for me, I think there's something a little less awkward about the guy in uniform playing the pretend bugle, as opposed the SAME guy just pushing the button. I guess because of the ceremony of the occasion. Just looks better for some reason?

    Of course the real thing at every veteran's funeral would be ideal, but that's not happening.
    I agree that it looks better and it gives the congregation a focal point if they want one. (When people push a button to produce music, people may not object but they don't normally watch the machine. At least the man holding the bugle is human and grieving.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  31. #180

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    Went to a street festival friday. Two performers, one a guy with a great set of pipes, doing Sinatra, Bennett, Tom Jones, with tracks. About 6 people watching.

    Half a block away, a guy playing an accordion (barely) and singing the same stuff, not nearly as good of a singer. Crowd of at least 50 people, laughing, singing along, having a blast.

    Instruments draw a crowd?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Went to a street festival friday. Two performers, one a guy with a great set of pipes, doing Sinatra, Bennett, Tom Jones, with tracks. About 6 people watching.

    Half a block away, a guy playing an accordion (barely) and singing the same stuff, not nearly as good of a singer. Crowd of at least 50 people, laughing, singing along, having a blast.

    Instruments draw a crowd?
    Maybe those 50 people couldn't believe people still played accordions in public... ;o) (Just kidding!)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  33. #182

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    Anyway, I noticed that a recording of "Taps" was played on an electronic device. I've seen this done at other veterans' funerals, but this time, the electronic device was in the bell of an imitation bugle which the serviceman put to his mouth as if he were playing his "bugle".

    Not really bothered by it. Just found it peculiar and kind of surreal. I wonder if anyone other than a musician would even think anything of it.
    To my mind if this guy could play and was a trumpeter and it was just a way to secure the peformance quality .. it's not good..

    I served in brass band - not in US - but I played about 30 funerals or so.. and every duty service soldier in our band had to play common everyday bugle tunes and snare drum patterns because trumpeters and drummers are involved in some ceremonies or drills all the time so we had to substitute them...

    Probably it was also the way to sunstitue absent trumpeter?

    But you know I should say that even when these funerals became a routine and when we went there telling jokes or discussing girls.. (of course bfore the family sees us)...
    anyway there was a moment when you just felt that you had to do all seriously and at yur best... maybe after that you forget it in a minute but this short moment you have it personal every time.. and in this moment I would prefer not to play anything at all than fake bugle

  34. #183

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    The proliferation of canned music, in whatever form, is a symptom of convenience our culture has grown to expect. It's convenient for the musician, it's convenient for the venue and sometimes it's even convenient for the patron. That would seem like a win win win situation in many cases if one is thinking pragmatically. Perhaps a reasonable question to ask is, does an art form diminish due to pragmatism? before you say yes, consider that the music industry from day one has been about pragmatic solutions to deliver music to the masses. Record labels would have a roster of musicians on call to pump out as many records as possible, agents and managers would squeeze out as many dates as possible for touring acts etc, and with all that we had a flourishing culture of musicians and artists during the golden era of jazz.

    My opinion is that we have reached a point of diminishing returns. Things have gotten so convenient that we are experiencing a watered down effect when going out to see live music (using 'live' loosely here). Technology has made things easy and playing jazz is inherently not easy. This creates a schism in the minds of many musicians that appreciate the value of a talented jazz artist or ensemble. The paradox is that jazz presents an infinite number of musical probabilities one could encounter at a gig. It is part of what makes jazz exciting to the audience member. With canned music the possibilities are finite and painfully predictable to the ear. Predictable music is appreciated by many in different genres but it is antithetical to jazz, and merging the two elements causes consternation at the very least and projectile vomiting at its worst.
    Last edited by BigToe; 06-21-2015 at 09:47 PM.

  35. #184

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    That's really true... and this is very complex process.

    In general... I think that we are actually at kind of 'zero point'... one culture is gone - though we're still moved with inertion of its power... and another is not yet born...

  36. #185

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    We now live in a world of the iPhone DJ...if a club cannot pay for a trio and a solo guitarist wants to play over a canned bass track at a wallpaper gig(if i am understanding the premise of the thread), who the hell cares? Has music been dealt a death knell because of it? Seriously, people who feel so anti-backing track, please don't use them, but at least try to get over the fact that they exist.

    On a similar note, I incorporated a looper last year for my duo gigs to get another layer, and it's allowing me more freedom to stack harmonies, to solo over a bassline, even create some guitar percussion effects if needed.
    Last edited by mikeSF; 06-22-2015 at 03:08 AM.

  37. #186
    destinytot Guest
    Why stop at backing tracks? ("Dancing robots, will you please wait in the wings? We're only auditioning singing
    robots now.")

  38. #187

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    the elephant in the room...


  39. #188
    destinytot Guest

  40. #189

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    We now live in a world of the iPhone DJ...if a club cannot pay for a trio and a solo guitarist wants to play over a canned bass track at a wallpaper gig(if i am understanding the premise of the thread), who the hell cares? Has music been dealt a death knell because of it? Seriously, people who feel so anti-backing track, please don't use them, but at least try to get over the fact that they exist.

    On a similar note, I incorporated a looper last year for my duo gigs to get another layer, and it's allowing me more freedom to stack harmonies, to solo over a bassline, even create some guitar percussion effects if needed.

    you see.. I think there's difference in how we treat it...

    it's not backing track that makes a problem
    what is bad is the feeling of 'fake' which comes form the idea that there's something that trie to imitate or emulate something true...

    Do you know the feeling when you see obviously foam ceiling fillet imitating real clay or stucco mouldigs?

    You feel decieved.. and if it concerns arts it ruins all the positive effect... it kills all that made the performance convincing.

    this idea of 'substitution of truth' is of course the part of personal perception and depends much on cultural context, education and many other factors...


    but as far as it concerns a performer I think it is important to use all these tools as they are, not to imitate something that is not present but on the contrary to try to involve them in process openly, try to use their functions for your own benifit...

    Great Glenn Gould whe he moved to the studio work was often critisized for cutting and editing final track form a few takes... because recording was considered a poor imitation of live performance.. a compromise..
    But he rejected this approach, he said: if I can make the track more live more true more convincing with the help of recording director - why should I stop? I am making record, I am not imitating playing live...

    This is really creative approach.

  41. #190
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    you see.. I think there's difference in how we treat it...

    it's not backing track that makes a problem
    what is bad is the feeling of 'fake' which comes form the idea that there's something that trie to imitate or emulate something true...

    Do you know the feeling when you see obviously foam ceiling fillet imitating real clay or stucco mouldigs?

    You feel decieved.. and if it concerns arts it ruins all the positive effect... it kills all that made the performance convincing.

    this idea of 'substitution of truth' is of course the part of personal perception and depends much on cultural context, education and many other factors...


    but as far as it concerns a performer I think it is important to use all these tools as they are, not to imitate something that is not present but on the contrary to try to involve them in process openly, try to use their functions for your own benifit...

    Great Glenn Gould whe he moved to the studio work was often critisized for cutting and editing final track form a few takes... because recording was considered a poor imitation of live performance.. a compromise..
    But he rejected this approach, he said: if I can make the track more live more true more convincing with the help of recording director - why should I stop? I am making record, I am not imitating playing live...

    This is really creative approach.
    Marvelous post, Jonah - thank you.

    I particularly like how you've separated approaches based on the ersatz, which disappoint, from creative ones, which augment or enhance an aesthetic experience.

    And surely backing tracks are part of the former?

    I wanted to try and make a joke about Joaquin Phoenix's character 'embracing technology' in the movie Her, but then it occurred to me that there's too much truth in that.

    Besides, the next humanoid robot - 'Pepper II' - may very well be some kind of - ahem - 'pleasure model'...

    So regarding the use of backing tracks, a word to the wise: mind you don't confuse audiences by sending the wrong signals - or they might start humping your amp!
    Last edited by destinytot; 06-22-2015 at 10:29 AM.

  42. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    ....

    Do you know the feeling when you see obviously foam ceiling fillet imitating real clay or stucco mouldigs?

    You feel decieved.. and if it concerns arts it ruins all the positive effect..
    can't say that i do. what a bizarre analogy.

    I think you are overthinking the issue. Regardless, you should at least feel that your own music is much more "genuine" because you do not use backing tracks. right? sweet.

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    Marvelous post, Jonah - thank you.

    I particularly like how you've separated approaches based on the ersatz, which disappoint, from creative ones, which augment or enhance an aesthetic experience.

    And surely backing tracks are part of the former?

    I wanted to try and make a joke about Joaquin Phoenix's character 'embracing technology' in the movie Her, but then it occurred to me that there's too much truth in that.

    Besides, the next humanoid robot - 'Pepper II' - may very well be some kind of - ahem - 'pleasure model'...

    So regarding the use of backing tracks, a word to the wise: mind you don't confuse audiences by sending the wrong signals - or they might start humping your amp!
    Backing tracks created from scratch by the performer are also part of the creative process, and anything but ersatz.

  44. #193

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    can't say that i do. what a bizarre analogy.

    I think you are overthinking the issue. Regardless, you should at least feel that your own music is much more "genuine" because you do not use backing tracks. right? sweet.
    I am just thinking.. not my fault that for you it's over-thinking (just kidding)

    I am using looper - not really often.. you can read higher in thos thread I described how use it

    the analogy came from architecture...
    I do not find it bizzare...
    I love visual arts and spend quite a lot of time studying early architecture.. one of the most obvious thing to notice is that the decay of style begins when they begin to fake material..
    or when construction looks lighter that it visually should be...
    Of course this feeling is personal (as I also said)... there are people for whom this Sacre Coere Church in Paris is beautiful Bizantine Style ... well ... I can't help it...
    In my city not long ago there was a restauration of baroque garden.. they substitued all the early sculptures of marble with copies that look plastic... some people are shocked.. some come and say: beautiful.. I want one near my country house..
    I don't blame them... they are sincere.. bbt I don't have to share their excitement


    My idea was not to criticize using backing tracks - on the contrary - I wanted to say that it is absolutely new means that require new approach..

    And I feel decieved when someone uses backing track trying to imitate live absent live player... I can live with that.. but that will most probably spoil the impression

    If you so not have money for marble .. take cheaper material and use its qualities to make beautiful piece of art.. but please do not try to paint it to look like marble
    Last edited by Jonah; 06-22-2015 at 03:02 PM.

  45. #194

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    Backing tracks created from scratch by the performer are also part of the creative process, and anything but ersatz.
    some process are creative, and some are less creative...

  46. #195
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Backing tracks created from scratch by the performer are also part of the creative process, and anything but ersatz.
    A very good point, and an important distinction. Thanks for pointing it out.

  47. #196

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    I really don't think that arranging, even with a computer program, is less creative than performing, unless the arrangements are record copies. The hardest parts of making good backing tracks are avoiding the metronomic, canned feel, which can be ameliorated by actually playing the bass, rhythm guitar, and/or percussion as part of the track; and getting really high-quality samples (real recorded sounds, not synth simulations) for your orchestrations. The other upside of doing your own is that you can change them over time, bringing is modulations, lengthening or shortening them, creating medleys, and in doing so, keeping them somewhat fresh. I find that adding a player or two also goes a very long way towards making a good presentation, creating a bit of the interaction that good music needs. Having said that, I would never use my tracks on a "jazz" gig or a concert; they are for casuals, parties and functions. In the summertime here in the Northeast, the demand for "calypso" music with steel drums is huge, but the budgets are not in keeping with the scarcity of pan players, so I often sell a calypso/Island act as a duo with backing tracks just to be able to pay the pan player what the market demands, which is in the $400-500 range.

    Backing tracks are also useful for practicing, as Abersold proved decades ago, but I have never utilized commercial tracks for my gigs.

  48. #197

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    For rehearsal purposes it is helpful to have backing tracks created in Sibelius for me to enjoy rehearsing. And I also enjoy the process of creating bass or piano or other instrumental tracks for its intrinsic musical value. It is perhaps like a painter enjoys blending colors in a landscape painting. Nothing replaces a live band or musicians, of course. And one can never get a totally spontaneous feel with software instruments. But that is not really the objective, though some high end composers do TV and movie themes with sophisticated software.

    And I can never find good musicians hanging around my house at four in the morning.

  49. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    And I can never find good musicians hanging around my house at four in the morning.
    Free booze might help that situation. ;o)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  50. #199

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    I will always prefer a good musician play over backing tracks over a scars musician playing with a full band, but that's just me.

    Sandro

  51. #200

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    Well, I think it's time to utilize 2015 technology and rather than just use backing tracks, we can use tracks and stream our perfrmances right from our living room to a screen at the venue. That way we can totally avoid the bothersome chore of interacting with other people face to fface....kinda like internet forums...so safe and sterile. Virtual reality....