Backing Tracks for live gigs Poll

**drbhrb** · 03-06-2015, 12:50 AM

EOE, any professional high level musician would have examples of their playing they wouldn't be embarrassed to share. You pulled the same shit with me in another thread. No one is bothered by being on your ignore list. Similarly no one is impressed by you making a living with music. I've seen people playing to tracks in senior centers or at casinos that I would not aspire to. If you have such a problem running a band you probably are not good enough to attract quality musicians. Seriously, there are so many killing musicians today that if you can't find a drummer and bass player its on you.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-06-2015, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

You're not? OK

Haven't been in years! But its all good, man.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-06-2015, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by EOE

I have a policy. he called me a blowhard .. I ignore or mute all peeps who resort to childish behavior fyi . just saying this because some are wondering why.

Childish behavior? Like having something but refusing to share? Or like bragging about something but being unable to prove it because it's not true?

**KirkP** · 03-06-2015, 01:11 PM

I'm beginning to feel like I've gone back to middle school.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-06-2015, 01:13 PM

Shouldn't be too surprising--you're in the company of musicians, Kirk, middle school is where most of us tuned out.

**Hep To The Jive** · 03-06-2015, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

I have a policy. he called me a blowhard .. I ignore or mute all peeps who resort to childish behavior fyi . just saying this because some are wondering why.

Mmm.. Excuse me, but can I get on the list too? Looks like thats where all the cool kids are hanging out...

**Stevebol** · 03-06-2015, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by EightString

I'm going to bow out of this thread. Some of you cats are just too authentic and hip for me to be worthy of your presence.

Enjoy.

Like they say in Russia- dunt let the door heet yoo.....
You're giving singers a bad name 8. Maybe you'll come back after a little attitude adjustment.

**EightString** · 03-06-2015, 02:47 PM

I know I had exited the thread, but I'm popping in to say "thanks" for pointing out the bad link in my profile. I had shut down and relinquished that site years ago and never got around to updating here.

Carry on.

destinytot · 03-06-2015, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

ok spelling police

No such effrontery intended.
What I found telling about mourning were its sobering connotations of grief and sorrow.

**EOE** · 03-06-2015, 09:56 PM

lolol Des that is why I did not put you on ignore when I went back and found my misspelled word I got it...hey I skipped a lot of days in high school to go play with blues cats.. and in college my girlfriends wrote my essays for me. I spent all my time playing music. that piano bar was tough. o I know my written English is bad .

**pamosmusic** · 03-07-2015, 07:08 PM

I'm curious - as an improvising musician - what's the appeal of having just backing tracks? Though I don't agree with them I understand the practical reasons (financially easier, space considerations, etc). I'm curious though for the small group of people who legitimately prefer it for musical reasons.

Why? What's the reward of improvising a solo of something that's static and not reacting to you and prodding? What's the payoff? Legitimate question because for me the prodding and interaction IS the payoff. I don't feel good about playing two choruses and running out of ideas and landing pretty when I'm playing a trio gig or something. It's about playing in a way that engages the musicians. That's what's important for me. What is the personal reward of using tracks instead of musicians (again as a matter of choice not as a matter of logistics)?

**Stevebol** · 03-07-2015, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

I'm curious - as an improvising musician - what's the appeal of having just backing tracks? Though I don't agree with them I understand the practical reasons (financially easier, space considerations, etc). I'm curious though for the small group of people who legitimately prefer it for musical reasons.

Why? What's the reward of improvising a solo of something that's static and not reacting to you and prodding? What's the payoff? Legitimate question because for me the prodding and interaction IS the payoff. I don't feel good about playing two choruses and running out of ideas and landing pretty when I'm playing a trio gig or something. It's about playing in a way that engages the musicians. That's what's important for me. What is the personal reward of using tracks instead of musicians (again as a matter of choice not as a matter of logistics)?

People who don't really improvise won't get it. Midi is bad enough but backing tracks are a whole different league of bad as far as improv. I'm old and I might give backing tracks/midi a shot. I'm going to have to concentrate on not improvising.
Young people should go ahead and use tracks because they already play like old people. That's not a compliment but they probably won't get it. Does that make any sense?
I spend too much time here. This site is turning me into Yogi Berra.

**EOE** · 03-07-2015, 08:40 PM

well ok for me it is difernt if I am playing bass or guitar...I do not solo on the bass with backing tracts because I really want to lock in with the drums and take syncopation to some kind of new level...guitar I want my band locked in and playing the music as it is written I do not want any surprise notes that may clash with where I want to go with my improve. I have written or arranged it the way I want. I want them to stay In the pocket...the backing tracks I use I can adjust the instruments and I am buying recording gear so I can modify and make my own. so really playing with a band or baking tracks is the same except tacks make fewer mistakes and with a band I will brake out my bass....understand I was skipping school at 16 and jamming with blue cats. I enjoy jamming but my original project is show not a jam. and my backing track gig is more like your dayjob.. I enjoy getting lost in my solos , working on my chops... I get paid to practice........I do nothing but improve with backing tracks.. I know or read the melody. play it a few times but 90% of each tune I am improving just making stuff up. hay man I am 55. I can improv all day. well I do lol

**henryrobinett** · 03-08-2015, 12:28 AM

Richb edited the above post to take the meanness out.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-08-2015, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Richb edited the above post to take the meanness out.

Yeah. Now it's all nice! ;-)

**KirkP** · 03-08-2015, 01:28 AM

The Jazz Guitar Forum: "A friendly place to discuss all things jazz guitar."

**Stevebol** · 03-08-2015, 02:45 AM

I'm selling out. I've had it I'm going to use tracks. Midi for pop and R&B. Backing tracks for so called 'jazz'. I have to stop improvising and that's going to be tough to get used to. Can't say I earned it. I don't believe we earn anything but I'm old now.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-08-2015, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

That's the kicker and where the fundamental disagreement is with those who like them and those who don't. There is no interaction between soloist and accompaniment.

I agree with this but I don't think this is new. For example, many jazz critics have remarked that although Coleman Hawkins' performance of "Body and Soul" is classic, the orchestra backing him is nothing special. I don't think he was paying them much attention. The same goes for many singers. This is not great interplay, but nevertheless, Coleman's performance is great. Legendary, even. (Again, I am not advocating the use of backing tracks while gigging but at the same time, I am not bothered by it in settings where people want to hear songs they like and don't care about hearing live interplay among stellar jazz musicians.)

youtube coleman hawkins body and soul - Bing Videos

**pamosmusic** · 03-08-2015, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I agree with this but I don't think this is new. For example, many jazz critics have remarked that although Coleman Hawkins' performance of "Body and Soul" is classic, the orchestra backing him is nothing special. I don't think he was paying them much attention. The same goes for many singers. This is not great interplay, but nevertheless, Coleman's performance is great. Legendary, even. (Again, I am not advocating the use of backing tracks while gigging but at the same time, I am not bothered by it in settings where people want to hear songs they like and don't care about hearing live interplay among stellar jazz musicians.)

youtube coleman hawkins body and soul - Bing Videos

Point taken but that's not really a fair comparison. It's one of the greatest sax players of all time and choosing a more arrangement oriented approach for one of his recordings. Also it was common at the time for recordings to have relatively static accompaniments and more calculated shorter solos simply because that's what the recording technology allowed for. That doesn't mean it was live performance practice at the time. Also colemans performance of the tune with the devices he used and harmony he implied and lack of a statement of the melody was revolutionary in and of itself

**pamosmusic** · 03-08-2015, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by OldGuitarPlayer

This is my nephew on tenor sax, he is a professional jazz musician and teaches music at a University in Seoul North Korea. His name is Kenji Omae (my sister married a Japanese guy).

Notice he doesn't use backing tracks.

Wow man ... thanks for that. That's beautiful. Also it's nice to put this discussion in some real world context. A vs. B

destinytot · 03-08-2015, 10:59 AM

I'm curious though for the small group of people who legitimately prefer it for musical reasons.

Don't give in to curiosity. Backing tracks are the Devil; run fast - and run far!

It's about playing in a way that engages the musicians.

I'd go so far as to call this principle honourable.

**pamosmusic** · 03-08-2015, 11:26 AM

This was posted in a thread about Whiplash a couple days ago

The Drum Thing, or, A Brief History of Whiplash, or, "I'm Generalizing Here" - Do The Math

I hadn't seen this but I've read Ethan Iverson's blog occasionally. It's outstanding. He's very opinionated but very level and objective and gives the floor to some of his colleagues to write dissents to his posts and posts them as responses. Very very cool. For those of you who may be unfamiliar Ethan Iverson is a pianist and founding member of the Bad Plus as well as a pretty well-respected music critic and amateur jazz and music historian.

The post above is well worth the read for any number of reasons. I also think it's oddly applicable to this thread and I'm curious if anyone who reads it might agree.

**grahambop** · 03-08-2015, 11:41 AM

If I pay to see a jazz musician, I do NOT expect to see backing tracks being used. Quite honestly, I believe that the calibre of jazz musicians I get to see here in the south-east UK would totally screw up their reputation if they were seen using backing tracks. And I am just talking about people I can see in local small jazz clubs and pubs, not in the Royal Albert Hall or something. I am talking about people like Jim Mullen, Peter King, Nigel Price, Simon Spillett, Andy Sheppard and many others. These are real jazz musicians who appear regularly in small venues in the south-east.

If it was a restaurant gig, that's a bit different, because I paid for a meal, not the music. If it turns out there's a jazz guitarist in the corner with backing tracks, then I wouldn't mind that so much. I'd accept it's a completely different scenario.

I have seen two jazz guitarists (John Etheridge and Paul Malsom) who used a looper. But they only used it on one tune, they explained to the audience beforehand that they were using a looper, and they recorded the loop backing in real time before soloing over it. Paul Malsom used it very creatively, he played a Gil Evans tune (Hotel Me) and built up 2 loop layers which he then added a third improvised part over.

Again I don't object to that, but I think it would get tedious if they used loopers on a lot of tunes.

As for Coleman Hawkins and Body and Soul, it was a REAL band with REAL people in it, playing live behind him in the studio. That's still way more interaction than a backing track.

**grahambop** · 03-08-2015, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Richb edited the above post to take the meanness out.

If only Mr EOE would let us hear some clips of his amazing music, we would know whether to spring to his defence or not.

**OldGuitarPlayer** · 03-08-2015, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

For me, that conjures a vision of Hell. No matter how good the food, I wouldn't dream of eating there.

I certainly wouldn't play there.

This was in the south-east of England (nearly fifteen years ago)

I would LOVE to be able to do what you do! I am trying to work up to that level of singing and playing all those sweet jazz chords at the same time and you my friend have it nailed. If only I could find a wicked bass player like that too...hahaha! The bossa nova tune was also amazing. Good job man!

My only question is...did you and the bass player at the restaurant gig split the $2000 fee like our friend EOE makes at every gig he plays with his drum machine?

....sorry I can't resist...:lol:

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 06:20 PM

ok one point why would I care if you spring for my defense ? why would I let you hear my music for free?. ok 2 points...I did not think of this but was talking to my old college bandleader and he said "those guys that can not impove to a track never played in a real jazz band and will never make it in the recoding industry" his def. of real jazz band is at least 8 horns a key and drummer...yea when you are doing that one eye is on the music one on the conductor and all solos are improvised because if you get to rehearse it twice you are lucky. and you better stay in the pocket. any one can find clips to back their position ...

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by OldGuitarPlayer

My only question is...did you and the bass player at the restaurant gig split the $2000 fee like our friend EOE makes at every gig he plays with his drum machine?

....sorry I can't resist...:lol:

ok that was a out right lie which makes your word worth nothing ignore button for you. in fact I may leave this site because I get the feeling many here never paid there dues.

**nick1994** · 03-08-2015, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

ok one point why would I care if you spring for my defense ? why would I let you hear my music for free?. ok 2 points...I did not think of this but was talking to my old college bandleader and he said "those guys that can not impove to a track never played in a real jazz band and will never make it in the recoding industry" his def. of real jazz band is at least 8 horns a key and drummer...yea when you are doing that one eye is on the music one on the conductor and all solos are improvised because if you get to rehearse it twice you are lucky. and you better stay in the pocket. any one can find clips to back their position ...

If you go around the site making strong claims or offering your opinion, people want to know that you know what you're talking about. I don't think they want to listen to music for free, more like a youtube clip just jamming over a tune or something casual. If you don't verify your ability to play, people will probably just ignore you.

**OldGuitarPlayer** · 03-08-2015, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

ok that was a out right lie which makes your word worth nothing ignore button for you. in fact I may leave this site because I get the feeling many here never paid there dues.

You're right...I've never made a living from music or played a gig, been on the road, had any radio airplay or played on any CD's in my life in the last 37 years. I'm just a simple hack I am sorry if I offended you. Enjoy living the dream....

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 06:45 PM

no screw them I do not have to play that amateur utube gig.. just need to find the button to leave the forum ...

**mr. beaumont** · 03-08-2015, 06:46 PM

Most didn't. This isn't just a website for pros. But the pros we do have here usually entertain discussion, share insight, network, link to websites, upcoming gigs, clips from performances, etc.

You've come here to bash jazz musicians and show your disdain for singers, talk about your superiority, and brag about unrealistic wages and provide nothing to support any of it.

**nick1994** · 03-08-2015, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

no screw them I do not have to play that amateur utube gig.. just need to find the button to leave the forum ...

If you don't want to expose your playing then don't but don't be surprised when people like rich say you can't play because for all they know, you can't play.

Also, I don't think you need to leave the forum because people question you or your ability.

**OldGuitarPlayer** · 03-08-2015, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

If you don't want to expose your playing then don't but don't be surprised when people like rich say you can't play because for all they know, you can't play.

Also, I don't think you need to leave the forum because people question you or your ability.

I agree, no need to pull a drama queen and threaten to leave the forum. I come to this forum to learn from the experiences and education offered by the other musicians here who are willing to selflessly share their time and music with us. I thank them for that. I don't come to this forum to read about someone extolling the virtues of using backing tracks in a performance situation. I don't care how good or "professional" they claim to be.

I have never once said I am a jazz musician or even a jazz guitarist on this site because I am certainly not. In that regard I am a hobbyist. That being said, I play lead guitar, sing and front and book my own band and have done so for many many years. I have also performed as a solo act since I was 15 years old. I think I am more than qualified to have an opinion on the subject of the thread. Again...it's just an opinion.

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 07:38 PM

not a drama queen .. well I can not find the button to leave the forum so let me take a stab at getting banned....I know now why there are so few pros here. who would put up this bunch of wannabe players to stupid to listen to a musician . to make sure it Is clear mr moderator I am showing as much disrespect for those losers as human beings as possible so I get removed ....do not quit your day jobs.

**pamosmusic** · 03-08-2015, 07:41 PM

nevermind

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

Listen, learn how to play music before you start pontificating. I know your "kind". You can't play.

Yeah, I know his kind very well too. Yet another non-musician trapped in a wannabe's body. Pathetic. """"""""" So rich you bipolar? of your meds? or just to stupid to know you did not long in on your alt...talking to your self and responding to your own post shows every one what a looser troll you are flaming with 2 accounts..so who is your second account anyway.. what a Idiot you are.

**Stevebol** · 03-08-2015, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

no screw them I do not have to play that amateur utube gig.. just need to find the button to leave the forum ...

You don't make any sense. I voted 'agreed' simply because I'm thinking about using these samples of comping like Abersold. I know the different between samples of comping, midi and drum machines. I never used tracks to get a gig but I did use midi sequencing and drum machines to keep a gig ages ago.
I'm not looking forward to it but I'm going to give Abersold tracks a try. For pop or R&B, no way. I'll use midi.
I've been around long enough to know this- never underestimate America's voracious appetite for cheesy entertainment.

**nick1994** · 03-08-2015, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

not a drama queen .. well I can not find the button to leave the forum so let me take a stab at getting banned....I know now why there are so few pros here. who would put up this bunch of wannabe players to stupid to listen to a musician . to make sure it Is clear mr moderator I am showing as much disrespect for those losers as human beings as possible so I get removed ....do not quit your day jobs.

I don't know why you're getting all upset about being asked to show your playing. there's no evidence that you're a musician nor that you know what you're talking about. Would you believe me if I said I was an astronaut and had no way of proving it?

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 07:48 PM

it makes since to the person I was talking to ...wasn't directed to you.

**OldGuitarPlayer** · 03-08-2015, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

I don't know why you're getting all upset about being asked to show your playing. there's no evidence that you're a musician nor that you know what you're talking about. Would you believe me if I said I was an astronaut and had no way of proving it?

LOL!!! This is the best comment of the whole thread!!!

You win the internet!!!

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 07:56 PM

if someone would have asked I may have shown them privately if they promised not to spread it on the net....making a living is to hard to just put yourself out there till you can capitalize on it. but they did not ask. they were rude and insulting how can I trust people like that? and rich is a pyscostalker talking to himself ... you think I am going to put any link to my life with a freek like that trolling with 2 accounts

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 08:03 PM

then you have oldgutiar who is a liar how can he be trusted?

**OldGuitarPlayer** · 03-08-2015, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

not a drama queen .. well I can not find the button to leave the forum so let me take a stab at getting banned....I know now why there are so few pros here. who would put up this bunch of wannabe players to stupid to listen to a musician . to make sure it Is clear mr moderator I am showing as much disrespect for those losers as human beings as possible so I get removed ....do not quit your day jobs.

I am afraid you'll have to try harder than that to get banned.

Oh...and I don't have a "dayjob"...

**Stevebol** · 03-08-2015, 08:04 PM

There are 30 people in this sub-forum right now. Must be a mistake.

**Stevebol** · 03-08-2015, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

not a drama queen .. well I can not find the button to leave the forum so let me take a stab at getting banned....I know now why there are so few pros here. who would put up this bunch of wannabe players to stupid to listen to a musician . to make sure it Is clear mr moderator I am showing as much disrespect for those losers as human beings as possible so I get removed ....do not quit your day jobs.

I'm not a jazz pro but there are plenty here. What's yer problem, really? The strongest demographic on this site is probably 50-somethings who aren't active musically such as me.
I voted 'agreed' but get off my side.

**OldGuitarPlayer** · 03-08-2015, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by EOE

then you have oldgutiar who is a liar how can he be trusted?

dude calm down...if you're ever gonna make it in the music biz you gotta grow a thick skin and be able to take a little criticism. It's ok...we all know you're afraid to show us your music because you can't handle criticism but don't come on here with an attitude of disdain for other musicians or singers because they don't agree with your way of doing things. It is no wonder you play with backing tracks. You will go far in this business... best of luck to you.

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 08:23 PM

I have already made it ...and I only handle insults to a point then it is time for the bouncer.

**EOE** · 03-08-2015, 08:29 PM

once again it is not about disagreeing I bet you could not be truthful if your life depended on it. it is about rude, insulting and out right liars. if you are gong to quote me have the moral fortitude to do It truthfully