Backing Tracks for live gigs Poll

[EightString]

I think I've had enough "interaction" with musicians, especially the kind of interaction that has nothing to do with the music.

Back in early 2005, I was in 3 working bands, two of which I was leading. For the most part, the music was good. But after 25+ years of bands and everything they entail, and several last straws of band drama breaking the camel's back all at once, I just finally reached my limit.

I paid my band dues and then some. If, after nearly 3 decades on the merry go round, the removal of my primary source of unnecessary drama from my life and embracing technology is a cop-out or failure to adapt, so be it.

[EightString]

I know I'm not going to convince anyone that backing tracks are "good" if they hate the very concept.

By the same token, no one is going to make me feel bad for using them. I'm happy now, doing my thing, and confident enough about it that some people on the Internet aren't going to change that.

However it does make for interesting (if sometimes repetitive) threads.

[mr. beaumont]

EightString, I do get where you're coming from, and admittedly, EOE's "faceless know it all" personality has me bristling at the tracks idea more than maybe I even would. It his actual disdain for other musicians that bothers me--it's been apparent in several threads.

You've posted your performances before, and I can see what you're doing. You're an entertainer, and I can respect that.

I just can't get on with people doing tracks and calling it jazz. That just doesn't fly for me. I don't even know if I can call a solo guitar gig jazz, anyway. Jazz just seems to scream "interaction between musicians" to me, and when people don't get to see how special that is, then they don't care when it's watered down. It strips possibly the coolest thing away from the music.

[EightString]

EightString, I do get where you're coming from, and admittedly, EOE's "faceless know it all" personality has me bristling at the tracks idea more than maybe I even would. It his actual disdain for other musicians that bothers me--it's been apparent in several threads.

You've posted your performances before, and I can see what you're doing. You're an entertainer, and I can respect that.

I just can't get on with people doing tracks and calling it jazz. That just doesn't fly for me. I don't even know if I can call a solo guitar gig jazz, anyway. Jazz just seems to scream "interaction between musicians" to me, and when people don't get to see how special that is, then they don't care when it's watered down. It strips possibly the coolest thing away from the music.

And I get where you're coming from. As I recall, you've always expressed your opinion on the subject with class and some reasoning behind your opinions.

I can even agree to some of that reasoning or at least see your point of view.

Is what I do "jazz"? Or is what I do "jazz-like" interpretations of songs? I've learned all the melodies, chord progressions, and improvise every solo. My overall interpretations on guitar and vocal differ from night to night within the framework of set arrangements, so there's that. I'm also constantly working on my vocabulary in the context of songs to come with with new ideas and approached to explore within that framework. It's incremental now, not so many "Aha!" moments, but the journey is there.

On the flip side, an audience member isn't going to get a more raw experience by hearing wildly different interpretations by a group on consecutive nights, although I do have multiple arrangements of some songs just to keep it varied. But is it enough for a true jazz connoisseur? Maybe not.

I personally love being in the middle of the live interplay between musicians finding the magic. I just don't enjoy a lot of the other interplay that comes with the territory.

[henryrobinett]

the lengths some people will go to avoid playing with other people . . . Lacking people skills or organizational skills can be a problem especially dealing with the hardest cats to herd: musicians. But for me the answer to the problem is not to take all of my crayons and toys home, but rather to figure out a better way to play with the big boys. EVERYTHING is about interaction, whether here on the forum, dealing with neighbors, relatives or co-workers. Sure you can always figure out ways to stay at home, work from home, only listen to messages and never pick up a phone call. Human interaction can take it's toll. But you don't learn much about being a human being without it. And certainly you'll learn even less about being an artist.

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks.

It's really the "guitareoke" hacks that undercut that get under my skin.

[EightString]

the lengths some people will go to avoid playing with other people . . . Lacking people skills or organizational skills can be a problem especially dealing with the hardest cats to herd: musicians. But for me the answer to the problem is not to take all of my crayons and toys home, but rather to figure out a better way to play with the big boys. EVERYTHING is about interaction, whether here on the forum, dealing with neighbors, relatives or co-workers. Sure you can always figure out ways to stay at home, work from home, only listen to messages and never pick up a phone call. Human interaction can take it's toll. But you don't learn much about being a human being without it. And certainly you'll learn even less about being an artist.

I'm not exactly "lacking people skills or organizational skills".

Otherwise I wouldn't play for and interact with audiences (people), or have arranged and produced (organized) hundreds (thousands? I have to check) of song arrangements to play.

On top of that, my day job for the past 8 years has been as CEO of a software technology company. That is like herding cats in its own way. Prior to that? I ran software development groups at Sony, Disney, Electronic Arts, etc.

I've got people and organizational skills covered.

I'll say it again: I love playing music with other people. But at this point in my life, after over 25 years of bands, I feel like I've earned my scars and the right to color with my own crayons for a while. I don't do this full time anymore, and I just don't have it in me to wrangle people as part of my "paid hobby" when I wrangle people throughout the day as part of my work. If that's "avoiding playing with other people", so be it.

[henryrobinett]

Fair enough.

[fep]

the lengths some people will go to avoid playing with other people . . . Lacking people skills or organizational skills can be a problem especially dealing with the hardest cats to herd: musicians. But for me the answer to the problem is not to take all of my crayons and toys home, but rather to figure out a better way to play with the big boys. EVERYTHING is about interaction, whether here on the forum, dealing with neighbors, relatives or co-workers. Sure you can always figure out ways to stay at home, work from home, only listen to messages and never pick up a phone call. Human interaction can take it's toll. But you don't learn much about being a human being without it. And certainly you'll learn even less about being an artist.

Why not use a much more current example?



Metheny did it. And those of you that think he used this setup live like a looper... for about 90% of the show he did not. Most of the material was pre-programmed, I went to the show.

[mr. beaumont]

If you want to compare a musical system that the guy envisioned, built, programmed, and composed for to playing along with "All of Me" at Geno's Spaghetti house, go ahead, you've made this ridiculous claim before.

I've posted an article before that Pat says much of it is controlled with his feet, and he drops things in and out at will. He's also into software like Ableton Live and Native Instrumens' Kontact, which can be programmed to give him random playbacks he has to react to.

Pat Metheny: The Orchestrion Project

This is how the project actually worked. Hardly a "canned band."

[fep]

If you want to compare a musical system that the guy envisioned, built, programmed, and composed for to playing along with "All of Me" at Geno's Spaghetti house, go ahead, you've made this ridiculous claim before.

I've posted an article before that Pat says much of it is controlled with his feet, and he drops things in and out at will. He's also into software like Ableton Live and Native Instrumens' Kontact, which can be programmed to give him random playbacks he has to react to.

Pat Metheny: The Orchestrion Project

This is how the project actually worked. Hardly a "canned band."

I don't want to make that comparison to ""All of Me" at Geno's Spaghetti house" as you implied with your ridiculous statement indicating that I did.

I really liked the Metheny show and it was primarily backing tracks used in a very creative way.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, you implied it was a way to avoid playing with actual musicians, because you posted in reply to Henry's one man band post.

No need to backpedal now. You've used the Orchestrion project as an attempt to call out anti-tracks posters in the past too, right? As an attempt to say, "if ypur hero Pat does it, it's ok, right?"

Please don't be coy on this Frank, we've had this disagreement before.

[EightString]

I was thinking of taking a booking to play for the dinner crowd at a local Italian restaurant... now maybe not.

[mr. beaumont]

Just do you and a guitar. You got the chops for it.

Restaurants, for the most part, don't want a "show."

[Stevebol]

I'm not exactly "lacking people skills or organizational skills".

Otherwise I wouldn't play for and interact with audiences (people), or have arranged and produced (organized) hundreds (thousands? I have to check) of song arrangements to play.

On top of that, my day job for the past 8 years has been as CEO of a software technology company. That is like herding cats in its own way. Prior to that? I ran software development groups at Sony, Disney, Electronic Arts, etc.

I've got people and organizational skills covered.

I'll say it again: I love playing music with other people. But at this point in my life, after over 25 years of bands, I feel like I've earned my scars and the right to color with my own crayons for a while. I don't do this full time anymore, and I just don't have it in me to wrangle people as part of my "paid hobby" when I wrangle people throughout the day as part of my work. If that's "avoiding playing with other people", so be it.

I walk the earth, eat a lot of fish and listen to jazz. Next stop- Barbados.

[henryrobinett]

I know a lot of CEOs and people who run big companies. Not many of them like to compromise a whole lot. That's what bands are all about. Unless you're wealthy enough to keep the guys on retainer you hire people (I do anyway) for their talents and abilities. With me I write most of the music. Even in that case I prefer guys to bring me what they have, including their own ideas. It makes it more fun that way. But as I said, fair enough. You have it your way and it works for you. Just not as a jazz thing. I'm sure you're not expecting a call from Terrence Blanchard?

Stevebol - wasn't directed at you. Sorry.

[fep]

Well, you implied it was a way to avoid playing with actual musicians, because you posted in reply to Henry's one man band post.

No need to backpedal now. You've used the Orchestrion project as an attempt to call out anti-tracks posters in the past too, right? As an attempt to say, "if ypur hero Pat does it, it's ok, right?"

Please don't be coy on this Frank, we've had this disagreement before.

Why so confrontational? Why is it so important to you to put me down because of this point I made about Metheny? This is very weird. So we disagree, who cares, why the big f'n deal.

I'm not being coy. I'm using Orchestration as the best, or at least my favorite use of backing tracks. And you are right, I am using "the Orchestrion project as an attempt to call out anti-tracks posters"

This conversation wouldn't be complete without considering possible the best and most creative use of backing tracks ever.

How you can find that innapropriate to this conversation is bizzare.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, I apologize if I misunderstood your post--it really seemed like a passive aggressive "ha ha, hypocrites" comment to me.

If you're saying that wasn't your intention, that's good enough for me, I'll bow out on this one and get some sleep.

[cosmic gumbo]

It is so much of a hassle dealing with those stupid sidemen, all they want to do is drink or smoke pot, if they even show up for the gig at all.

When I get the okay gigs for $3000-$4000, then I hire some good help, but why go to the trouble when you can just do those $1000 backing track gigs 10-12 times a month and laugh all the way to the bank. I can afford to have Nile Rodgers make me the dopest backing tracks.

Whenever Sco, Herbie or Kurt are in town they're always telling me how hip it sounds, and want to know what kind of cables I use, etc. They be wanting to know if I'll go on the road with them, but they know for real I got too much loot to make local and still go home and sleep in my own crib every night and count my money. Diggin' the scene with my own bad self. Too cool.

[EightString]

It is so much of a hassle dealing with those stupid sidemen, all they want to do is drink or smoke pot, if they even show up for the gig at all.

When I get the okay gigs for $3000-$4000, then I hire some good help, but why go to the trouble when you can just do those $1000 backing track gigs 10-12 times a month and laugh all the way to the bank. I can afford to have Nile Rodgers make me the dopest backing tracks.

Whenever Sco, Herbie or Kurt are in town they're always telling me how hip it sounds, and want to know what kind of cables I use, etc. They be wanting to know if I'll go on the road with them, but they know for real I got too much loot to make local and still go home and sleep in my own crib every night and count my money. Diggin' the scene with my own bad self. Too cool.

Gosh, I wonder what the unedited version said. lol

[targuit]

EightString - Congrats on running a software company. At least there is a thriving industry. I'm a physician, and primary care is virtually imploding, thanks to the Feds and the insurance companies who own them.

Could you briefly summarize how you utilize backing tracks? I create Sibelius tracks (every note is my input via keyboard) to rehearse with and for my enjoyment. But lately when I record, I am using a three-track format of vocal and two guitars or keyboard/guitar, all played "live" by me. I do not have several musicians on speed dial, nor a desire to waste endless hours getting to and from rehearsals, and frankly dealing with personality quirks and egos.

I understand the purist point of view - ideally I would love to have a regular live duet or trio of musicians who don't need a lot of rehearsal and can just play the music. But it is hard enough just to find gigs these days for a soloist.

But I'm still curious how you run your rig.

Jay

[grahambop]

I have every respect for those who earn a living playing music, but bear in mind this is a JAZZ GUITAR forum. We aspire to playing jazz, like our heroes.

The use of backing tracks on live gigs is never going to find much of a sympathetic audience here. Simple as that.

[targuit]

Eightstring -

I listened to your CD preview on CD Baby - congrats on creating a nice CD including originals! Naturally, you can't hear the whole songs in their entirety - I would have enjoyed hearing your guitar more, but the vocals were quite good. Can you fill us in on the recordings - mics, site, eg. - and how they went down? Nice job!

Jay

[drbhrb]

I'd love to know what those successful bands were, but alas, all we get is anonymous internet blowharding from a nameless, faceless, mysterious--yet reportedly wildly successful--guitar player.

+1 for this

EOE is always talking a big game yet won't post any playing because his music so valuable that a 20 second clip would undermine the entire music economy.

[Broyale]

Hell YEAH!
They call me the backing track Burt Bacharach.

[cosmic gumbo]

Me and Wynton were discussing the whole backing tracks thing at lunch over at Spike Lee's place, he thought he could save a lot of money if he could just get rid of that bunch of fools called the JALC Orchestra, but it was all Union and his hands were tied. We all laughed when he spilled coffee on his $2500 Italian shoes, but he just wiped them clean with a wad of $100 bills that fell out of his pocket. I thought Spike was gonna choke. Good memories....

[ingeneri]

I'm not exactly "lacking people skills or organizational skills".

Otherwise I wouldn't play for and interact with audiences (people), or have arranged and produced (organized) hundreds (thousands? I have to check) of song arrangements to play.

On top of that, my day job for the past 8 years has been as CEO of a software technology company. That is like herding cats in its own way. Prior to that? I ran software development groups at Sony, Disney, Electronic Arts, etc.

I've got people and organizational skills covered.

I'll say it again: I love playing music with other people. But at this point in my life, after over 25 years of bands, I feel like I've earned my scars and the right to color with my own crayons for a while. I don't do this full time anymore, and I just don't have it in me to wrangle people as part of my "paid hobby" when I wrangle people throughout the day as part of my work. If that's "avoiding playing with other people", so be it.

So you're a successful CEO and aren't willing to spend enough on what is effectively a hobby to hire proper professionals capable of playing charts? That's the kind of noblesse oblige that launched a 1,000 Occupy movements.

[grahambop]

It's a good job Art Blakey could be bothered with the hassle of running a band. Otherwise we could have ended up with Art Blakey and the Backing Tracks, rather than Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers.

[EightString]

I'm going to bow out of this thread. Some of you cats are just too authentic and hip for me to be worthy of your presence.

Enjoy.

[henryrobinett]

I'm going to bow out of this thread. Some of you cats are just too authentic and hip for me to be worthy of your presence.

Enjoy.

Authentic and hip - This is a jazz guitar forum. Those are two things almost everyone here aspires to, so why the surprise?

[AlsoRan]

(Warning: Long diatribe ahead)

As I reread this thread, it seemed to me that over and over the objections came down to:

1) backing tracks costing people playing opportunities and/or money

or

2) backing tracks cheapening the art form that is Jazz

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So in regards to 1), if this world did not require for us to earn a living and if Jazz was super-popular, Jazz musicians of all levels could play to their hearts content at any number of venues.

In regards to 2), it is clear that there is a standard of performance out there that many Jazz musicians consider to be acceptable. So in their mind, anyone who plays below this level should "stay in the bedroom" or stick with small informal groups and practice to reach that acceptable level, and not gig because it disrespects the art form.

A player using backing track is in clear violation of the item (1) above, and in the eyes of many, also of item (2).

In truth, using backing tracks is similar to using machines in a factory and putting people out of work. Some of the workers were dedicated and worked hard, others were selfish and worked harder getting out of work, and then there are the rest that fall in between. I don't know if this is more of a problem with society and the inherent unfairness of life, or a problem with individual's failure to adapt to the changes life throws at us. Probably a little of both.

Then there is problem 2), that is born of the passion that many Jazz musicians share, and their desire to not see the music "turned into a mockery." Yet it has been proven that many will pay for this "mockery." And, there a musicians who will "cross the picket line" and play in these venues.

I guess when it is all said and done, there are those who want to protect the ability to play Jazz in live venues both for the sake of the art form and for their livelihood, and there are those who just want to go have fun and earn a little money.

I would think there are venues who would don't have the money to pay for big bands and instead go with just about any serviceable musician they can stick in a chair. As an earlier thread stated, these venues are not the problem. Its the ones that cut corners and forego bands for the backing track guy.

In the end, life is not fair and you can try to fight to hold back change, change with, it be overrun by it. Those are the options and everyone has to decide for himself/herself what they are going to do and acknowledge the consequences of their decision. But "keep it real" and understand how we affect one another. But also ask that if the shoe were on the other foot, would the person on the other side of the argument accommodate your desires and needs.

From reading this thread, it appears each is out for his own interests, and may the strongest, smartest, and inventive win. And isn't that the way life works.

(I am off my soapbox. Its just that I am always moved and a bit saddened when I see impasses in life, like in things like politics or social views. We truly do not think the same.)

[pamosmusic]

I may be mistaken ... But I didn't see anything about it running people out of work. For me it has to do with interaction being a fundamental part of my musical experience. With respect to a jazz guitar forum ... Solo guitar is an essential skill and using backing tracks removes any need for this skill. You can compare it to a factory if you wish and make it sound like people are traditionalist sticks in the mud resisting progress but ask yourself if you think factory instruments can lay claim to the same price range and claim the same benchmarks of quality as a skilled luthiers work. It's an alternative. Not a substitute.

[pamosmusic]

You know ... I actually like your factory analogy. That very aptly sums up my thoughts on the topic. I genuinely have no objection to it. I personally am just not into making factory music. If others are then that's cool. I'd rather do hand crafted grass fed artisanal music and what have you.

[AlsoRan]

You know ... I actually like your factory analogy. That very aptly sums up my thoughts on the topic. I genuinely have no objection to it. I personally am just not into making factory music. If others are then that's cool. I'd rather do hand crafted grass fed artisanal music and what have you.

You are right. There was a third option and that's those who just don't like use backing tracks because of the lack of interplay - a very real aspect of what I call "good" Jazz. I should have added that in, but most who feel this way don't decry backing tracks as strongly as those in camps 1) and 2) that I mentioned above.

And you made a good point about the factory analogy. I probably would not take the analogy too far beyond the cost and the supply and demand aspects, and how they affect the choices of owners hiring live music acts. For example there is a difference between mass-produced items and small scale productions of skilled artisans, as you mentioned. The metaphor starts to breakdown.

And you know, sometimes change is not good to to fight for things to remain the same can often be the better option.

[EOE]

I will just solve the problem with you Beaumont it is called ignore list. anyone who resorts to childish name calling goes there. Now to new players, do not listen to cats who are stuck in their box...at 18 I was playing in a rock band..at a blues jam I was offered a job in a country band..my rock band said many of the same things some of these cats say...." its all about the music mann " they all have day jobs. I have made my living playing music...look at the industry look at your market and make solid business choices. is it better to work a day job and play what you love at night...or play music for money working on your chops and play what you love early in the morning? it is a fast changing industry. you do not have time to let people slow you down.

[ingeneri]

I will just solve the problem with you Beaumont it is called ignore list. anyone who resorts to childish name calling goes there. Now to new players, do not listen to cats who are stuck in their box...at 18 I was playing in a rock band..at a blues jam I was offered a job in a country band..my rock band said many of the same things some of these cats say...." its all about the music mann " they all have day jobs. I have made my living playing music...look at the industry look at your market and make solid business choices. is it better to work a day job and play what you love at night...or play music for money working on your chops and play what you love early in the mourning? it is a fast changing industry. you do not have time to let people slow you down.

This may be the first time I've seen Jeff Beaumont put on an ignore list in 10 years.

Sorry, but there isn't't a single jazz credit in your Post, so I don't find the fact you made a living playing music particularly dispositive. I care a lot more what people like Jack Zucker or Henry think.

It's a different scene with very different criteria. If you're trying to perform Jazz professionally, you've already indicated that doing what it takes for financial renumeration is not a priority. Probably more opportunities as a Ativan throat singer. For people (admittedly not you) to post that they need to use backing tracks because the musicians they hire are degenerates who universally have drug problems, don't know any tunes, and can't read charts just reveals their own cluelessness. Talk to any pianist who came up in the Wynton era in the '80s about how many tunes they needed to know, or learning a famous singer's book almost instantly. And I'm not talking about famous pianists, just local heroes.

i know guys who played with Charlie Parker who worked day jobs for decades, they will always have more authority on Jazz than you, or me, or just about all but maybe a hundred people in the world.

[EOE]

cool you do not know me and it does not bother me at all if you do not care about what I have to say ... if someone does learn something from what I have to say great...but on the other hand seeing how you do not know me do not assume what I can not do or who I am... and if I do not want to put my self out there for psycostalkers like I kind of think there is one in this forum. that is my business. what benefit is it to me to put my portfolio here? do not need anymore mentors than I have.. if i give up on putting my band together I will have no problem getting work. I am comfortable in my skill so do not need to impress anyone or need encouragement. me I understand the problems running a band and know how to minimize those.. market is tough even top acts have to use backing tracks.. and when it comes to a full band you are in direct competition with top acts . they are all over the casino circuit. but hey do not believe me.

[destinytot]

play music for money working on your chops and play what you love early in the mourning

The rather telling misspelling reminded me of "Never for money. Always for love." (From This Must Be The Place by Talking Heads.)

[EOE]

ok spelling police I went back and fixed it.

[mr. beaumont]

Woo hoo! I'm hitting the ignore list. If only I knew whose list it was.

Sorry, EOE, but I'll happily be ignored by an anonymous know it all prick who preaches plenty and shares nothing.

And you aren't making 1k a night playing with tracks anywhere, bro. But good luck on your band--I'm sure all the top players in your area are lining up when they learn you think they can be replaced by a machine.

[henryrobinett]

I've never known anyone who felt that they had to put Jeff Beaumont on ignore.

[Stevebol]

I just tried to click on Eightstring's homepage and got attacked by a bot spot whatever it is. Lol. These techies are a trip. Did he ban himself? Too bad.

[Stevebol]

I've never known anyone who felt that they had to put Jeff Beaumont on ignore.

It's getting a little weird around here. 8string banned himself and mods get put on someone's ignore list?

[mr. beaumont]

Man, people STILL think I'm a moderator!

[henryrobinett]

He banned himself??

[Stevebol]

Man, people STILL think I'm a moderator!

You're not? OK

[Stevebol]

He banned himself??

I'm kidding but you can't get to his website now. I was at his site a couple days ago now there's a bot attack. He's a CEO of whatever so I'm sure he knows what he's doing.
I don't.

[NSJ]

Who's "Jeff Beaumont"?

Let's see --there's two Jeffs who post regularly here, Jeff Matz and there's Jeff Smith.

[EOE]

I'd love to know what those successful bands were, but alas, all we get is anonymous internet blowharding from a nameless, faceless, mysterious--yet reportedly wildly successful--guitar player.

I have a policy. he called me a blowhard .. I ignore or mute all peeps who resort to childish behavior fyi . just saying this because some are wondering why.

[henryrobinett]

I have a policy. he called me a blowhard .. I ignore or mute all peeps who resort to childish behavior fyi . just saying this because some are wondering why.

I understand.

Also silly me. Jeff Matz Beaumont.