The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    It is my business, since you have have personally offended me earlier and now you do it to others. Its a shame to the nice people that get degraded. We are definitely not opponents in the club but brothers, as we should be here. Amen.

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  3. #52

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    I used to busk on the streets and in the subways of Chicago. We (my musical partner played flugelhorn) never tried to look downtrodden, but we made money anyway. It was a really fun experience, and we sometimes were offered gigs—our funniest one was a "Christmas" party for a Jewish law firm. A gentleman asked us how much we'd charge to play at the party, we gave him a price, and he frowned and insisted on paying us more. I'm not sure the attorneys even heard our music due to the high volume of their conversations … but they did seem to have a good time.

    We usually played jazz and Brazilian standards and a few originals. If someone asked for a suggestion on how to succeed at busking, I'd tell him not to copy most buskers, who often play loud in order to call attention to themselves. We'd do the opposite. We played at lower levels in order to draw the crowds close to us … and once they were within earshot, they'd usually contribute a little $$$. (We usually hid the paper money to deter any notions of theft.) This was back in the 1980s and I'd say we would make between $35 and $65 during evening rush hour (twice as much during the holidays).

  4. #53

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    To busk or not to busk


  5. #54

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    Art. A painting hangs in a gallery. The artist has given his art freely to the world. It's really up to the consumer to decide if the art work has value and if the consumer wants to own it. The musician can offer a CD for sale, and, different than a painting in a gallery, unless you're online, you can't sample the CD out on the street. Now, I grew up in an art center where there were lots of galleries and lots of culture. I like to see Art. I also like to hear Art.

    If a couple of players are playing out of doors (vs in a lounge or cafe), they are really giving their Art freely to the world. If they are good, and I throw a five in the case, I'm supporting the Arts. Same as a cover charge at a club. Only, the entire amount goes to the artists. That in no way resembles begging, in which a poor soul asks for help and offers nothing but pathos. It's been said that "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." So, generosity is probably a positive thing, anyway; but a tip, as in tipping a busker, isn't just generous, it's appreciative. I'm thankful for the talent, and that the talent is given freely to the world. It's worth something to me at least.

  6. #55

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    It's like anything you do in art when also money are involved... you should not expect money when you that, you should be involved just in creative process.
    It does not mean that you should reject orders or requests...

    it's a tricky thing to distinguish... it is not that you just do not beg or ask mone conciously...

    In that sence sometimes even real beggar can somehow treat it with dignity and you will give him money not of pity or irritation... and at the same time someone who pretend to be never-begging may evoke an annoying feeling that he keeps begging for donation all the time...

    I truly believe that we cannot earn with real art... it is fake... you might if you are just lucky, like occasionally... you did not intend, but you just were lucky... but if you put it as a goal if you correct something for it, it is all lost.

    Artist should be skilful in working with what others call reality.. he cannot fight it, because it is much stronger, but he can swindle it

  7. #56

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    That is one tres cool video! I'm reminded of the time I was in Amsterdam in 1995 and one fine summer evening ran into Robin Nolan (an excellent jazz guitarist) playing Gypsy jazz with a modern twist with his group in one of those beautiful ample European squares. I love all forms of art, but nothing moves me quite the way beautiful music lifts the spirits with ennobling joy.

    jay

  8. #57

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    Busking is with the intention of making some money, it's not playing for "fun".

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Busking is with the intention of making some money, it's not playing for "fun".
    I work nearly 250 dates most years with the intention, at least, of making money. It's nearly always fun. You're not implying that fun and earning money are mutually exclusive, are you?

  10. #59

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    Guys, intention is a tricky word... you never know.

    Have you seen a movie with Michael J. Fox ' For Money or Love"? - the whole idea there was that it looked like he did for money but actually probabaly he himself did not understand that he really cared about people..

    As I said it is not that simple...

  11. #60

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    I'm just pointing out that busking is a term used to imply it is done with the intention to make some money.

  12. #61

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    English is not my native so do not feel the linguistic difference...

    what is for sure although that in many cases playing music outside is a part of beggars' business (I call it namely business), when they just use a musical instument as another supportive tool...

    by the way sometime these professional beggars can be somehow also musical in their own way... I would say authentic. But mostly they just repeat a few popular tunes - often played very very badly in a boring way ... but lots of people admire this also as some skill, tastes differ...

    I hate when they come up and ask... sometimes I see students with a guitar singing a song and his girlfriend trying to be charming comes up and says something like they are actually not beggars just young kids who want some money for fun ets. I do not like it... Besides I hate music when I do not ask for it, I do not like places with background music... it is worse than noise to me.

    Actually it is very very seldom to see really musical people play outside.

    In my country it is also an issue with some special people.... they have to pay both to police and to gangsters to cover them...

    By the way in my city - very big one with lots of tourists - if you go out for busking regularily in pedestrian tourist streets you may be sure to meet first police and then probably local street cover... both will come to collect money

    If you just go out for a while once or twice or you obviously do it for fun, or just for a glass of beer - they most probably will not care... but if you come out repetedly you will meet them for sure.
    Last edited by Jonah; 10-16-2014 at 03:47 AM.

  13. #62

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    Some cities require permits for busking.

    I like musicians busking as long as the music is good.

  14. #63

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    Some cities require permits for busking.
    In my country it is not needed, but police could use some other formal grounds if they want... it depends on the situation: location, their mood today, maybe some special order they have now... or just for fun... or money... their way to busk.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I'm just pointing out that busking is a term used to imply it is done with the intention to make some money.
    I'm just pointing out that gigging is done with the same intention. What, is money bad now? The landlord won't take altered chords and diminished scales in lieu of rent.

  16. #65

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    I'm just pointing out that gigging is done with the same intention. What, is money bad now? The landlord won't take altered chords and diminished scales in lieu of rent.
    money is bad for art, it is for sure... one should not keep money in mind during creative peocess.
    That will work for Holliwood movies only... bit is it waht we are after?

  17. #66

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    I don't mind someone busking. I hope to one day have the skills to be confident playing in front of a bunch of random people. When I was a deejay, I did a 2 hour set in the park space of a local shopping area. It was great fun and I got a few paying gigs out of it. I made some money, but nothing so substantial that I would consider doing it regularly.
    To me, busking is a way to share music out in the open and hopefully brighten someone's day. I certainly do not consider it begging-I mean, I don't know any buskers shaming people for not pitching in on a donation.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    money is bad for art, it is for sure... one should not keep money in mind during creative peocess.
    That will work for Holliwood movies only... bit is it waht we are after?
    Money is good for Art. It is a concrete way of Art lovers to show they support the Arts. The opera, the classical orchestras, the ballet, they survive through philanthropic donations of Money, as well as funding (Money) by Government Grants. When folks buy a ticket to see me, they are supporting the Art of Jazz. When they buy a Jazz CD or buy a painting or sculpture, they are supporting the Arts.

    You are just wrong.

  19. #68

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    You are just wrong.
    Up to you to define.
    For me this is not about being wrong or right to be on this forum. It is about thinking and communicating.


    Money is good for Art. It is a concrete way of Art lovers to show they support the Arts. The opera, the classical orchestras, the ballet, they survive through philanthropic donations of Money, as well as funding (Money) by Government Grants. When folks buy a ticket to see me, they are supporting the Art of Jazz. When they buy a Jazz CD or buy a painting or sculpture, they are supporting the Arts.
    I think we misunderstand each other, do not take it as an offence - probably I explain it in a wrong way - but you seem to take my words too directly. I never said that artists do not need money or art projects should not be sponsored.

    There maybe different beings of Art in our life... there's art like social actitivity, and artist as a social role - then it (and he) is involved in all social processes including sales issues etc.
    In this cocern Art can be considered as any other occupation...

    And there's Art like personal way of seing world, understanding reality, creating reality, extremly personal... and any social limitaions including money is bad for it. Not even bad - they just have nothing to do with that if it's real.

    THough we cannot usually clearly put a line between these, we should always be careful that this social staff should not take over personal creative world.

    Let me put in another way: it can be paid, ordered, sold, bought for money but it shoud not be done in a way to get money... otherwise it will be a good product, maybe high quality, nice, proper, pleasent, entertaining - whantever - but not Art.
    Last edited by Jonah; 10-16-2014 at 03:03 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    money is bad for art, it is for sure... one should not keep money in mind during creative peocess.
    That will work for Holliwood movies only... bit is it waht we are after?
    WHAT????? Money is bad for art???!!! Are you kidding me?? How are artists going to survive? Where is the exchange with the audience/artist?

    I think there's always a balance and flow in all things. There's in and out. The artist creates art and the public views it or better purchases it. The artist needs remuneration for the work otherwise he IS simply a beggar or a member if the servant class, and I consider myself neither.

    I think I know where you are going with this, but no. You're afraid of what happens when art exists only as a commodity? That it cheapens the art? That us always a possibility. It happens but the bourdon is in the artist to have personal integrity. Create music you love that might have therefore appeal because it is real. It also helps ferreting out the excessive lame drivel. But art should be art without consideration of making a killing, perhaps in that it might change the face of that art. How many Kenny Gs could we take? But that burden is in the artist. He still needs to be paid for his work, like anyone else would.

    Geez.

  21. #70

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    Throughout history it has been art - Mozart, Beethoven, Brahams, -- All these artists had patrons and were very often ordered to to compose specific music: court music, church music. Are you saying none of that music was art? Michelangelo was commissioned by the church and was paid. None of what he correlated was art either? Stravinsky, Coltrane, Bird were all paid for their work. Not artists huh?? Damn. I wonder who WAS a great artist then?

  22. #71

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    Throughout history it has been art - Mozart, Beethoven, Brahams, -- All these artists had patrons and were very often ordered to to compose specific music: court music, church music. Are you saying none of that music was art? Michelangelo was commissioned by the church and was paid. None of what he correlated was art either? Stravinsky, Coltrane, Bird were all paid for their work. Not artists huh?? Damn. I wonder who WAS a great artist then?
    You probably did wrote your message before I out the last so I cop it again

    I think we misunderstand each other, do not take it as an offence - probably I explain it in a wrong way - but you seem to take my words too directly. I never said that artists do not need money or art projects should not be sponsored.

    There maybe different beings of Art in our life... there's art like social actitivity, and artist as a social role - then it (and he) is involved in all social processes including sales issues etc.
    In this cocern Art can be considered as any other occupation...

    And there's Art like personal way of seing world, understanding reality, creating reality, extremly personal... and any social limitaions including money is bad for it. Not even bad - they just have nothing to do with that if it's real.

    THough we cannot usually clearly put a line between these, we should always be careful that this social staff should not take over personal creative world.

    Let me put in another way: it can be paid, ordered, sold, bought for money but it shoud not be done in a way to get money... otherwise it will be a good product, maybe high quality, nice, proper, pleasent, entertaining - whantever - but not Art.



  23. #72

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    In the mid-late 70s I was fortunate enough to have a prolonged one on one conversation with Ornette Coleman. Much of the conversation was about the role of the artist in society and that the primary struggle facing the artist since the beginning of time, since there was the first artist, was how to survive as an artist. How to continue creating art and eat at the same time. In other words how to get paid. He said he still hadn't figured out the answer to that question. But in art, it's about getting paid for making art.

  24. #73

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    Tchaikowski even said: 'Good composer should be like a good tailor, ready to take up any order.'
    And he did take orders.
    And to take order is not only money. Petipa put him a number of bars in a score... this is actually even tougher than to meet expectaions of a rich patron.


    Nevertheless I can find maybe only about dozen pieces of him by which I can see that they were maid for money. He did orders and was paide and but practically never composed music for money.

    Now maybe it is clearer what I mean

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Up to you to define.
    For me this is not about being wrong or right to be on this forum. It is about thinking and communicating.




    I think we misunderstand each other, do not take it as an offence - probably I explain it in a wrong way - but you seem to take my words too directly. I never said that artists do not need money or art projects should not be sponsored.

    There maybe different beings of Art in our life... there's art like social actitivity, and artist as a social role - then it (and he) is involved in all social processes including sales issues etc.
    In this cocern Art can be considered as any other occupation...

    And there's Art like personal way of seing world, understanding reality, creating reality, extremly personal... and any social limitaions including money is bad for it. Not even bad - they just have nothing to do with that if it's real.

    THough we cannot usually clearly put a line between these, we should always be careful that this social staff should not take over personal creative world.

    Let me put in another way: it can be paid, ordered, sold, bought for money but it shoud not be done in a way to get money... otherwise it will be a good product, maybe high quality, nice, proper, pleasent, entertaining - whantever - but not Art.

    Let me put in another way: it can be paid, ordered, sold, bought for money but it shoud not be done in a way to get money... otherwise it will be a good product, maybe high quality, nice, proper, pleasent, entertaining - whantever - but not Art.

    Have you been to a Classical concert in a concert hall? The players dress up, the conductor may even wear a formal tux. This does not make the music sound better. They do this because it's a tradition ... for a good reason. Classical musicians depend on the generosity of mostly very wealthy people to fund their compositions and performances. These wealthy people want to see classical orchestras in beautiful concert venues performed by very well dressed musicians. The music is packaged and presented to appeal to the money providers ... done in a way to get money.

    Also, Classical orchestra producers take the community, the sponsors, and local critics/ media into consideration when organizing music programs, as do Art gallery and museum owners and curators, because they influence the money people.

    Have you been to a Jazz club? The musicians tend to play at reasonable volumes (so patrons can be comfortable and waitstaff can take food and/or drink orders). If you can't fit your creativity into that model, you will work very few venues. Your Jazz has to be ... done in a way to get money.

    To one extent or another, someone with money supports Art, or we never have Art. It can be the King, the Church, the Party, or the rich. They all have requirements, and if those requirements are not met, the Art never sees daylight. Welcome to planet Earth.

  26. #75

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    In the mid-late 70s I was fortunate enough to have a prolonged one on one conversation with Ornette Coleman. Much of the conversation was about the role of the artist in society and that the primary struggle facing the artist since the beginning of time, since there was the first artist, was how to survive as an artist. How to continue creating art and eat at the same time. In other words how to get paid. He said he still hadn't figured out the answer to that question. But in art, it's about getting paid for making art.
    Of course artists may worried and irritated by it...
    You know Beethoven often composed pieces then dedicated it to some rich person (those days such a dedication was usually made by order of a patron) and came to demand payment for it))) Wagner always was very careful about payment. As you mentioned in earlier days composres and artists worked only as paid masters. There are lots of the same pictures of Titian or Cranach arounf the worls because they made copies in there artshops of thos that sold well, Bach had to compose in Leipzig one cantata every Sunday, Nozart came through ahalf of European capitals composing new symphonies in each trying to get a job at local court... but none of those that I mentioned created art for money.