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In my limited exposure to advanced, accomplished Jazz guitarist, I seemed to have picked up on a few insecurities about who is better. For instance, Albert King, the Blues great, was reportedly reluctant to share the stage with a guitar player he thought was better than him (better in my book is a relative term and depends a lot on the observer making the judgment).
I am kind of surprised by this, especially when many of these guitarists would be considered great by many, especially their peers.
So would you be hesitant to let an established player sit in on your gig, when you feel he is better? Are you concerned that he might show you up? Would it matte if he were a friend? I can definitely understand not letting some bitter rival get up there with you.
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06-14-2014 04:43 PM
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Albert used to play with SRV of course SRV would talk about stealing all of Albert good licks.
There are always people that are to pain to play with they showboat or don't try to fit in to what music/groove is going on, or just too loaded. That goes from amateurs to greats. I would say it's more common for players to be open to others as long as the music is good.
Now there are stories from the old days of guys like Miles getting tired of people sitting in all the time and would call difficult tunes or tempos the person couldn't handle to get them off the stage. Rumour has it the tune Milestones was written to run off weaker players.
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Albert King was a blues player as you know...very different scene than the jazz scene. And on the flip side, Clapton was more than happy to have Jimi join him on stage knowing full well that Jimi was a monster player.
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I hope I'd let them. In my book EVERYBODY's better than me. Ha ha. Seriously, if the spirit is good, it's fun and I always look for the lesson in it. If the spirit and 'tude is bad, I wouldn't want them in the room, no less sharing a space like music.
I play regularly with a guy who's so ridiculously better than me. It's been a joy to see myself getting better in that air of acceptance.
David
Oh, and this guy I play with... he makes me sound SO good! I wish I deserved it.Last edited by TH; 06-14-2014 at 07:11 PM.
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That's the point. If you're not going to play with someone better than you than you're not going to get any better. One step further - I pay guys who are better than me to play the gig with me.
If someone wants to sit in and it's the kind of situation when that's appropriate and I know that they will sound better than me just because they happen to be better than me then I'll invite them up any day of the week. No problem with that.
If someone's going to get on stage just to show you up then I wouldn't invite them up. That has nothing to do with their ability level - that has to do with the fact that they're probably a tool. There's a difference between someone being better than you and someone who's playing to "show you up" ... on the other hand ... people like that probably think they're above going to someone else's gig just to hang anyway so they probably aren't there in the first place.
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For sure I would, I do, I should, I must, everyone is better than us, if we don't realize it, it means we cannot play. Sharing is important.
The best musicians never know they are the best.
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I'm open to sharing the stage with anyone who realizes the purpose is about serving the music.
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Amen to that.
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Now on the flip side, I've been invited up onto the stage by people who are way better than me. While that's certainly flattering, it can also be a potentially nerve-wracking situation. You have to trust their spirit and intention to serve the music and not to wipe the floor with you. I always need a few minutes to get my head together about that before joining them, which of course I know I must do, in order to stretch and grow. So far, I've never regretted it (whew!)
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A better player has better skills at making everyone sound good.
They are most welcome to join if the situation allows.
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I would be excited if a better player wanted to sit in with me. That would be really flattering.
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Wow.
This is what I wanted to hear, not replays of Minton's Playhouse scenes of old in which you players were trying to out do one another in an unfriendly way.
Even Grant Green's biography addressed Grant feeling threatened by the up and coming George Benson.
Different time and younger, less mature players possibly...?
Thanks for showing me another side of musicianship.
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Hello.
Would I let a "better" player join me on stage for a song?
Over the years, many, many times:
Moreover, I feel that I learned something from every one of them.
Music is the key that can open strange rooms in the house of memoryLlewelyn Wyn Griffiths.
Last edited by Rhoderick; 06-15-2014 at 10:36 AM.
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Ideally, everybody in the group is better than me!
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Sure. Here's an even better question;
If you have a regular gig and you can't make it one time, would you give them the better players name to fill in?
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Ha! Ha! Originally Posted by bluemusic4us
That might not be a good business move!
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If you can't make the gig, always send a sub who is equal or, preferably, better than you. The bandleader will love you for it. A great way to lose a job or at least your credibility is to send in someone who can barely cut the job because of your own personal insecurities.
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...but wouldn't that also possibly cost you your job? Originally Posted by monk
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In 45 years of playing I've never seen anyone lose their job for sending a good sub to cover a gig. I have seen bandleaders fire musicians for sending a slug to sub. Originally Posted by edh
Most jobs come from other musicians, whose opinions are respected, recommending you for the gig and players get hired for more reasons than just being able to play.
Having a strong work ethic, being easy to get along with, being dependable, having a good attitude, not having problems with booze and drugs are all just as important as being able to play well.
No one wants to be around someone who is constantly bitching, whining and complaining, is smashed, is constantly late or is slovenly on and off stage or bad-mouths other players. During the time I spent in Los Angeles and Nashville, I saw good players with great reputations get hired for good paying jobs and tours over monster players with bad reputations.
The positive qualities I mentioned will do as much if not more to keep you working as how well you play. Sending in a good sub to cover a gig is taking care of business. It shows the bandleader and other players that you respect them and the job.
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A - freaking - men. I alluded to that in discussion that disentigrated into a pissing match about who was a pro and who wasn't. I got some BS response about how if I listened more I could tell. My point was ... skill level doesn't matter. Professionalism is about how you carry yourself. If you're playing on someone else's gig are you on time or late? Are you cool or do you act above the gig. Do you make everyone sound better or play over everyone? Do you treat the band leaders music w respect? If it's your gig do you cash in on friendships to get guys to play for Free or pay them even if it means financial loss to you? You should think about what kind of musician and person you want people to think of when they hear your name. THAT'S important. Who's better in some silly subjective way... is not.
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I did a gig in the early 90's where a totally trashed Ace Frehley sat in on a sloppy rock blues thing in A.....it wasn't pretty
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Jim Hall used to play with Paul Desmond and couldn't do a gig and gave him Ed Bickert's name. Originally Posted by monk
We know the rest of that story.
But I agree, you should always send in someone without fear that they may replace you. It is the hallmark of professionalism.
And Jim Hall ended up just fine.
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Is that true? I heard Jim knew he was leaving the group abd recommended Ed.
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That's the story I heard also. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Hall's career was heating up and he wanted to take advantage of the opportunities that were coming his way. So he recommended the best cat he could think of to take his place. Hall moved on to better things, Bickert got a great gig that raised his profile outside of Canada and Desmond got a sympathetic, consistent accompanist and soloist. It worked out great for everyone.
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Wasn't it Metheny that said "It's good to be the weakest member in your band" or something similar, the point being you will always be striving to better yourself.
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Mr Beaumont you are right of course. I believe Hall was going in a different direction; Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
... Desmond received an offer to play at a new club in Toronto called Bourbon Street. He tried to get Hall to do the gig with him, but Hall refused, recommending Toronto guitarist Ed Bickert for the job....
Speaking of Ed Bickert - man I will never come close to understanding the fretboard like him!
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