Role in the band - Leader vs Sideman

[jazzislander]

Does anyone else have this problem of changing from leading role (solo playing) to sideman role (comping)?
I've been playing the guitar for about 10 years, 99% of it as a sideman. I guess it's expected from a guitar player to play comp for most of the time and solo when needed.
But there's an error to me. I feel so naked all of the sudden when I need to play solo, although I'm prepared and I practice it daily. It probably sounds like playing solo wasn't my main thing (although I'd like it to be) and then I fail at it because I'm out my comfort zone (which is comping).
I suddenly realized why in rock bands there used to be rhythm guitarist and solo guitarist. They're totally different points of view.

I have always envied vocalists or bass players for only having one job in the band - a solo line.

Don't get me wrong, I love having the ability to play the harmony - with it I can make music all by myself. I'm just wondering if there's some mind trick to switch between those two roles - leader and sideman. I'd like to go to a band and just say that I play solo guitar, so I'm not forced to switch my personalities during the song. But I doubt that I'd get any gigs with attitude like that...

[TH]

There's a lot of common ground. We don't know what your comping is like so that transition really depends on what you're doing. What kind of music are you playing? More modern comping can be closer to soloing; more linear ideas and supporting accents rather than keeping the time on the beat. In other words, more space.
If there's more space in your comping, and in the feel of the band, there may not be such a dramatic feeling of "dropping out" when you're taking your turn to solo.
Might we hear some of what you do?
Also, when you solo, you take the stage. It's your turn to set the tone. You can clear the space and build your ideas from a place lower dramatic level, and work your way controlling the arc or development as you go on. So you might begin by starting your solo space with chordal ideas, pull back and once the space is in your control, begin linear ideas. Does this make any sense?
Transitions are an art in themselves. You know you can lay out while you comp. It's a good option to keep in mind when you're supporting a soloist and rhythm section. Let the band become a trio from time to time. When your comping is a natural and organic part of what is happening, and not something people take for granted, then the transition from that to your own solo space may be an easier, and more musical one.

All this takes practice and the help of your band too. The less you assume and take for granted, the more you can define the roles you play on their musical merit, and not by parts set out by assumptions that are not a part of your own dynamic.

I hope this makes a little sense.
Good luck
David

I've always found Ed Bikert's approach to be a master class about 4:45 a nice transition. You can hear soloing in his comping, comping in his soloing:

[paulkogut]

Good advice from TruthHertz. I'd like to point one more thing out, there's some terminology you're using that could lead to confusion when talking with other musicians. I'd describe what you're discussing as differences between being a soloist and an accompanist. Not every instrument can assume both roles, for the guitar it's both a challenge an an opportunity.

When most folks discuss 'leader' versus 'sideman', they're typically talking about the business end of things. A leader will book the gig, hire the musicians, pick the tunes, count off the tunes, make sure everyone is back from the bar across the street before the second set starts, and gets the money from the club owner at the end of the night. A sideman gets called for a gig, finds out what type of dress and equipment is appropriate, shows up, plays the gig, waits around for the clubowner to pay the leader, collects their share and goes home. You could conceivably be a leader and an accompanist, or sideman and soloist.

PK

Welcome to PaulKogut.com

[jazzislander]

Thank you so much for the good advice, TruthHerz!

It's true that I've got into some kind of "comfort boxes", so I take comping and soloing as separate parts. The music I play at the moment is rather modern (originals) and has lots of pop elements in it too. Maybe the reason this problem arose is that I'm currently in a trio with vocals, guitar and bass only. So there's no drummer to keep the rhythm which makes me much more responsible for it.

[jazzislander]

Thank you for pointing that out, paulkogut, and explaining the use of those terms.
I meant more of the psychological aspect of being a leader or sideman, but english is not my native language, so maybe that excuses it.. :P

Still, I've always thought that it's more common that the leader plays more solo. For example the bass players who happen to be the band leaders have way more solos than bass players usually do

[TH]

Maybe the reason this problem arose is that I'm currently in a trio with vocals, guitar and bass only. So there's no drummer to keep the rhythm which makes me much more responsible for it.

Yeah, that's a challenging situation. Do you and the bass player do much duo playing? Does the bass and vocal have a good rapport? Have you explored looking at stretches of alternating duos? Have you ever had the vocalist sing bass lines with you guys? The last one is a great exercise and you may find that this activity, in rehearsals, may change things all around. As a mental exercise, have you ever thought of yourself as adding colour to a duo of bass and vocals? Or have they ever thought of the trio in that way, of adding their part to an independent duo? Keep the small units strong, and don't let yourself become the guardian of form.

Some listening and playing:

Hey when you think about following the vocalist, adding what is needed and nothing more, and being responsive to every nuance, keep this in mind and hope you find it amusing.

How do you articulate your comping? Arpeggiated figures can work to lighten up the density, and they'll provide rhythm and harmonic content. Play around. At first you may feel something is missing, but let the music find what's needed. And resist the temptation to provide more than what's needed. Experiment with just how little you can get away with, and don't take the world upon your shoulders. Let the vocalist instill confidence. If you believe things will not fall apart, you can be a little more free. The beat is there, everybody takes responsibility to know that and to really play with that confidence.

David

[coolvinny]

I'm not a pro but I do play some gigs and I jam regularly, 99% jazz. I can't say I've ever had this problem other than just lacking things to say as an improviser. I almost always welcome the chance to solo.

Anyone jamming in a jazz setting needs to be a chameleon...different roles at different times depending on what's happening. That means laying out too. Good horn players can "comp" for a solo by playing leading tones.

I would guess that you just need to develop more skill and confidence as a single note improviser.

[Patrick2]

Thank you for pointing that out, paulkogut, and explaining the use of those terms.
I meant more of the psychological aspect of being a leader or sideman, but english is not my native language, so maybe that excuses it.. :P

Still, I've always thought that it's more common that the leader plays more solo. For example the bass players who happen to be the band leaders have way more solos than bass players usually do

Your example of bass players is somewhat accurate . . but, not totally. Ron Carter, for example was the band leader of several projects as well as albums. It's true that Carter took more solos than the typical side man bassist within a project. But, he also recognized that he had to fill seats at a live performance and he had to sell albums. Bass solos don't typically do that as well as horn, piano or guitar solos do. So, Carter was astute enough to not "hog the stage".

Also, regarding leaders taking more solos than side men, it depends largely upon the genre and the situation. Greg Allman is without a doubt the band leader and infact the band owner of the Allman Brothers Band. He very rarely takes a solo, recognizing that his keyboard skills pale in comparison to the guitarists (or other keyboardists) usually accompanying him.

When George Benson performs live as part of a project but not its leader, even though he probably has the highest recognizable star power on stage, he selflessly shares the solo spot light with the other performers. In fact, he often does so even when he is the project leader.

Now, look at the original Dave Brubek quartet. Brubeck was undoubtedly the leader and owner of that project. Yet, Paul Desmond got most of the solo features, In fact, I remember reading somewhere that Desmond's decision to join the project was predicated on the agreement that he would be the featured soloist. I believe he also negated another star quality musician . . (possibly a guitarist?) . . from joining the quartet because he was concerned that the other player would detract from his own featured spotlight. (Maybe someone here can shed further light on that?)

So, I guess what I'm saying, is that it will generally vary from situation to situation.

[henryrobinett]

Then some guys are masters at comping DURING their solos. I tend to not do that a lot. But I outline the chords well so I don't miss it too much, since I was comping in the first place. But then again I'm talking a bout me, the soloist not missing it, rather than the audience.

If I'm playing with a pianist, especially a great pianist, I tend to be a horn player mostly, so there's no double comping.

paulkogut was right on the money. Whenever I saw this topic I was interested because I have this issue of leader vs sideman roles. But that's not what you're talking a bout AT ALL.

[djangoles]

Now, look at the original Dave Brubek quartet. Brubeck was undoubtedly the leader and owner of that project. Yet, Paul Desmond got most of the solo features, In fact, I remember reading somewhere that Desmond's decision to join the project was predicated on the agreement that he would be the featured soloist. I believe he also negated another star quality musician . . (possibly a guitarist?) . . from joining the quartet because he was concerned that the other player would detract from his own featured spotlight. (Maybe someone here can shed further light on that?)

I thought I heard somewhere that he was pretty pissed that Joe Morello's drum solos were stealing his spotlight...

[henryrobinett]

Then some guys are masters at comping DURING their solos. I tend to not do that a lot. But I outline the chords well so I don't miss it too much, since I was comping in the first place. But then again I'm talking a bout me, the soloist not missing it, rather than the audience.

If I'm playing with a pianist, especially a great pianist, I tend to be a horn player mostly, so there's no double comping.

paulkogut was right on the money. Whenever I saw this topic I was interested because I have this issue of leader vs sideman roles. But that's not what you're talking a bout AT ALL.

[Patrick2]

I thought I heard somewhere that he was pretty pissed that Joe Morello's drum solos were stealing his spotlight...

Thanks djangoles. That's exactly what it was. I was thinking (after I made that post) that I was remembering the story incorrectly, so I did some quick research. According to Brubek, Desmond approached him after a gig which included standing Os to some of Morello's solos and told him . . "either he goes or I go". I'll link to the interview, because it lends itself perfectly to some of the challenges of a leader's role in the band . . which is the title of and the intent of this thread. Obviously, the leader also needs to be a bit of a psychologist in handling the different personalities of band members. It's a bit of a lengthy read, but . . it's really worth the time.

PBS: Rediscovering Dave Brubeck| Talking With Dave Brubeck | With Hedrick Smith

[Patrick2]

Then some guys are masters at comping DURING their solos. I tend to not do that a lot. But I outline the chords well so I don't miss it too much, since I was comping in the first place. But then again I'm talking a bout me, the soloist not missing it, rather than the audience.

If I'm playing with a pianist, especially a great pianist, I tend to be a horn player mostly, so there's no double comping.

paulkogut was right on the money. Whenever I saw this topic I was interested because I have this issue of leader vs sideman roles. But that's not what you're talking a bout AT ALL.

Henry . . . as a friendly suggestion that might help the conversation, it would probably serve your posts better if you hit the "Reply With Quote" button, so that we all know which post your reply was referencing.

[djangoles]

yea... that's the clip I saw. (on the PBS doc)

[Patrick2]

Good advice from TruthHertz. I'd like to point one more thing out, there's some terminology you're using that could lead to confusion when talking with other musicians. I'd describe what you're discussing as differences between being a soloist and an accompanist. Not every instrument can assume both roles, for the guitar it's both a challenge an an opportunity.

When most folks discuss 'leader' versus 'sideman', they're typically talking about the business end of things. A leader will book the gig, hire the musicians, pick the tunes, count off the tunes, make sure everyone is back from the bar across the street before the second set starts, and gets the money from the club owner at the end of the night. A sideman gets called for a gig, finds out what type of dress and equipment is appropriate, shows up, plays the gig, waits around for the clubowner to pay the leader, collects their share and goes home. You could conceivably be a leader and an accompanist, or sideman and soloist.

PK

Welcome to PaulKogut.com

Paul; After reading Henry's refernece to your post as being "right on the money", I had to back up and re-read it. I agree with Henry, you nailed it. But, given some of the posts and questions within the thread related to the *musical* role of each, maybe a better title for the thread might have been "Role in the band - Leader vs Sideman vs Featured Soloist"?

Anyway, that was my own interpretation of the OPs point.

[henryrobinett]

Henry . . . as a friendly suggestion that might help the conversation, it would probably serve your posts better if you hit the "Reply With Quote" button, so that we all know which post your reply was referencing.

True. I hate taking up more bandwidth than is necessary, especially when my response was pretty much in reference to the OPs. But often I don't read all of the posts, so it's easy to write something that can be taken out of context!