Wes Montgomery's Compromise - Playing Smooth Jazz to be profitable?

[AlsoRan]

We all know that Wes and many artists changed their repertoire to include more "commercial" music, and the story goes that it was not for the love of the music but to better provide for their families.

For those of you that have had to do this, how do you remain enthusiastic? Do you end up just going through the motions because it is a compromise from the style you really like?


I would really like to know because it would seem to me to become "work" instead of pleasure. Or do you eventually develop a love for "watered-down" or more pop-oriented Jazz?

[nick1994]

Well, I think that's the difference between an artist and a musician. A musician will go where there is work, whether it's in session playing, teaching etc. whereas an artist dedicates themselves to writing and performing the music they want, regardless of financial benefit.

[cosmic gumbo]

A bad day on the bandstand is still better than a good day at the quarry....

[AlsoRan]

I asked the question because there is a local musician that plays some great straight-ahead Jazz when I see him perform, but when I went to his website, most of the songs on his CD were more of a smooth Jazz persuasion.

While he could really cook playing live, his improvisations on his latest CD were much slower and mid-tempo, and like I said the sound leaned toward a Najee/Kenny G vibe.

I was quite surprised, thus my question.

Hey, I understand, however, that you have "got to do what you've got to do."

[fumblefingers]

Someone told me that Lawrence Welk would really have preferred to be a jazzer but...

there is nothing stopping someone from playing artful music on their own or with their friends. Minton's after hours, right?

Another example I can think of is that some of my music profs would play this weird avant garde atonal "improvisational" shit on their own as an experimental ensemble or whatever. Needless to say, it's not what paid their bills. Classical music instruction paid their bills.

[3625]

I asked the question because there is a local musician that plays some great straight-ahead Jazz when I see him perform, but when I went to his website, most of the songs on his CD were more of a smooth Jazz persuasion.

While he could really cook playing live, his improvisations on his latest CD were much slower and mid-tempo, and like I said the sound leaned toward a Najee/Kenny G vibe.

I was quite surprised, thus my question.

Hey, I understand, however, that you have "got to do what you've got to do."

In the 60's, lot's of 50's era jazz musicians had to do some real naff pop/rock sessions to pay the bills - so I guess many of them hated it, an example being Bob Brookmeyer complaining about having to blow one note over and over for hours on a Phil Spector recording.

But my vibe is that since the 70's onwards, most of the guys that end up doing pop/crossover actually like it on some level, even if they can also play straight ahead - guys like Benson and Chuck Loeb.

Is smooth jazz actually popular? I guess it was at some point, but is there much of a market for that stuff these days? It ain't my thing so I wouldn't have a clue, but am curious to see if some players are still making money in that style. Seems real dated to my ears, like a late 80's, early 90's sort of thing - a slow drum machine funky breakbeat, some synth pads and some watered down guitar cliches like octaves and minor 9 arpeggios in the solos...

[cosmic gumbo]

In the big picture, if just changing your repertoire was all that it took to gain success, many would take that route. The reality is, most great musicians, regardless of genre or style can't make a living from only performing and recording. Fact.

[Andrew B.]

I always thought of Wes Montgomery as having the best of both worlds. He was a commercial recording success doing his pop/jazz groove. But he also kept doing straight-ahead jazz with other musicians.

I guess it just depends on how jangled ones nerves get doing music that is not a fav. Some people would prefer playing these gigs to working as a waiter. Others find it just too upsetting to do music that doesn't move them.

[Flyin' Brian]

The solos....that is the creative part of Wes' "commercial" playing was still head and shoulders above most of his peers.
Despite the fact that Wes played some songs not in the jazz repertoire, I don't think that he compromised anything.

As far as I'm concerned, guys who have proven what they're capable of...guys like Wes, Benson, Loeb, Metheny etc. can do whatever makes a living. The ones who can't are the ones compromised. Let's see Kenny G go toe to toe with Wayne Shorter.

In more direct answer to the OP's question, it's no compromise for me to play anything if I can play it the way I want to. Hell we played at a party not too long ago that had Happy Birthday involved. We swung in in a solid 4 and there ended up being about 8 choruses played by 3 of us. No compromise at all and people still sang along.

[AlainJazz]

I don't think Wes felt that he was compromising. I read (I think it was in his biography but don't quote me) that he was actually quite saddened by the negative reaction he got from other jazz musicians. He did not see it as selling out, but genuinely liked the music. I admit that I definitely prefer the earlier riverside recordings but if you listen to his playing on the later recordings, it is still great. All those schmaltzy violins were added on post production. It would be cool to hear how the original recordings sounded.

[Stevebol]

Wes was a genius so the norms don't apply. The rest of us have to think about it.

[Gertrude Moser]

I thought it was rather well documented that Wes did not care for the commercial route he was sent down; see @7:00 to 8:30 or so

Don't forget, Wes had a wife and seven children to feed.

[Helgo]

Speaking of Wes Montgomery. I read somewhere online (so, not reliable) that he worked a day gig as a machinist, even when he was already "famous" as a jazz guitarist-

Anybody know if this is true? Somebody have a source?

Thanks, H.

[Peter C]

A bad day on the bandstand is still better than a good day at the quarry....

Would that stand true if it were Kenny G's band?

[2bornot2bop]

Well, I think that's the difference between an artist and a musician. A musician will go where there is work, whether it's in session playing, teaching etc. whereas an artist dedicates themselves to writing and performing the music they want, regardless of financial benefit.

Wes was a fabulous artist, in my book, who conceded to record some pop styled offerings at the suggestion of Creed Taylor. I find it head scratching to suggest anyone who recorded anything to get paid is any less of an artist. Head scratching indeed.

I always thought of Wes Montgomery as having the best of both worlds. He was a commercial recording success doing his pop/jazz groove. But he also kept doing straight-ahead jazz with other musicians.

I guess it just depends on how jangled ones nerves get doing music that is not a fav. Some people would prefer playing these gigs to working as a waiter. Others find it just too upsetting to do music that doesn't move them.

Agreed. Same goes for Benson's ground breaking 1976 recording venture that opened a whole new financial and artistic world for his many talents. Heck, I still find myself listening to what for me was a "signature" recording...it was huge in '76...and I do mean huge...at least in Philly it was huge.

[AlsoRan]

Speaking of Wes Montgomery. I read somewhere online (so, not reliable) that he worked a day gig as a machinist, even when he was already "famous" as a jazz guitarist-

Anybody know if this is true? Somebody have a source?

Thanks, H.

From all that I have read, this was early in his career. Once he hit it big, I could find any source that stated he continued at his machinist day job.

Someone else on the forum may know better.

[cosmic gumbo]

Orrin Keepnews to Wes on his first year with Riverside -
'Hey Wes, a year ago you were unknown and broke. Now you're a star and broke. That's tremendous progress.'

This article gives some good insights into the commercialization of Wes and the prevailing attitudes.
http://jazztimes.com/articles/15844-...side-of-genius

[fumblefingers]

Wes was a fabulous artist, in my book, who conceded to record some pop styled offerings at the suggestion of Creed Taylor. I find it head scratching to suggest anyone who recorded anything to get paid is any less of an artist. Head scratching indeed.



Agreed. Same goes for Benson's ground breaking 1976 recording venture that opened a whole new financial and artistic world for his many talents. Heck, I still find myself listening to what for me was a "signature" recording...it was huge in '76...and I do mean huge...at least in Philly it was huge.

It was huge everywhere. Benson tells a funny story where the guys on the recording date told him not to scat while he played. He begged to differ. Still they did not expect a hit. Then it blew up.

[2bornot2bop]

Orrin Keepnews to Wes on his first year with Riverside -
'Hey Wes, a year ago you were unknown and broke. Now you're a star and broke. That's tremendous progress.'

This article gives some good insights into the commercialization of Wes and the prevailing attitudes.
http://jazztimes.com/articles/15844-...side-of-genius

Enjoyed the read. Thx 4 that. Creed Taylor and Don Sebesky were skilled at their craft. I've never understood the "sellout" rap on any musician being exposed to the masses. How many less people would have ever heard of Wes had he'd not recorded those mid 60's sessions before Wes passed away at 45?

This paragraph from the article summed it up well for me:

"compared to what currently passes for pop-jazz, usually under the smooth-jazz rubric, Montgomery's latter work sounds positively inspired-adventurous even. Guitarist Charlie Hunter says, "That stuff is great, especially when you think about what's going on today. Back then it was like sellout. Today, it's like avant-garde. The reason why guitar players love him is that he was the Man," no matter the musical setting."

Personally, I was 10 when the following recording was produced. This recording brought jazz to a 10 year old's ear and made him hungry to learn more. I'm forever grateful to Taylor and Sebesky for taking the chance to record Wes in a different light.

This was the 60's man...West Coast. Haight Ashbury was all the buzz, less than 50 minutes from my doorstep, and here I was being hipped to music radically different from that of my peers. Sellout? Nahhhh man...a music education is what those recordings were to this 10 year old. They influenced my musical life.

[AlainJazz]

I thought it was rather well documented that Wes did not care for the commercial route he was sent down; see @7:00 to 8:30 or so

Don't forget, Wes had a wife and seven children to feed.

I stand corrected. I'm sure Orrin Keepnews would've known. I have to look up where I read that about Wes being disappointed about being considered a sellout.

[GAN]

Let's see Kenny G go toe to toe with Wayne Shorter.

Playing Devil's advocate here. Perhaps Kenny G never intended to go toe-to-toe with the likes of a Shorter. Metheny was a first-class A-hole for dumping on the guy the way he did. Especially in light of the fact that Metheny invented Smooth Jazz almost single-handedly.

Everybody thinks they know what Wes Montgomery (or Charlie Parker, et al) was thinking.

I despise the boorish, boring snobbery of the jazz world. Especially when it's displayed by people who have accomplished exactly zero. It's more interesting hanging with my less sophisticated, less judgmental rock musician friends.

Sorry...

[2bornot2bop]

It's more interesting hanging with my less sophisticated, less judgmental rock musician friends.

Judging by the number of TELE posts on the gizmo page, aren't half of your buds here?

[GAN]

Judging by the number of TELE posts on the gizmo page, aren't half of your buds here?

[cosmic gumbo]

Judging by the number of TELE posts on the gizmo page, aren't half of your buds here?

Keef would like to edumacate us on the original rock guitars...

[marcwhy]

I think the original premise of this post is a bit off: smooth jazz does not = "commercial success," gigs, or money. If my main priority with music were to make a lot of money or even make a "decent" living, I wouldn't be playing jazz or smooth jazz; I guess besides teaching I'd team up with a good pop/wedding band and play as many private/corporate gigs as possible, and maybe get into the local musical theater scene to play shows. [Fortunately for me, my main priority is not just to make money, so I don't worry about "selling out."]