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I am referring to an "Informal music education" that occurs in the space of an open jam sessions.
What skills are being learnt?
Why is playing in an ensemble unique to solo performance?
How does playing with other musicians improve musicianship and musicality? etc
What is your opinion about these platforms for informal learning? Positive? Negative? Why?
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11-06-2013 05:05 PM
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I'm not a huge fan of jam sessions, although I think they are undeniably important parts of the culture of jazz. I think the biggest benefit of performing with other musicians as opposed to solo is that you learn to listen to others and work within a unit. If you want to play jazz at a high level, you need to develop skills like hearing what substitutions other players are using, playing in the same tempo and feel as the rest of the rhythm section, fitting into the group and not overwhelming the soloist with your comping, etc.
There are a ton of skills at play here that are incredibly important, and I don't think you can possibly learn them without performing with other musicians. Aebersold tracks are no substitute.
I think the best way to learn these things is to play for long periods of time in a group setting, and that's why jams aren't the best way to work on these skills. You usually end up getting one or two tunes to say your piece and sit down.
I think one of the reasons to still go to jam sessions is that they might be your first real opportunity to perform in a setting with really gifted musicians, especially if you aren't part of a formal school program. Playing with a really excellent drummer and bass player is a joy, and teaches you a lot about what things are supposed to feel like.
They're also good opportunities to network with other musicians and get involved in the community. I think they become less important over time if you do a lot of gigging, but for getting your foot in the door they're great.
Until the singer shows up...
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Jam session can be a real PITA, but are really necessary. First you discover what tunes you need to know in order to play with people, often times complete strangers. It helps you understand a kind of standard for your role in an improvising ensemble. Things like timing and form, cues, endings, intros, fours and 8ths, transposing for those singers who sit in or those tunes you know in one key - for example you like to play Green Dolphin Street is C because you learned it from the Real Book, but the standard accepted key is Eb. You're also forced to play tunes at tempos outside of your comfort zone. Jam sessions put hair on your chest.
And the hard knocks that can happen are invaluable for growth, much more so than the slaps on the back and other validation. Those are essential, but they don't tell you what you have to work on!
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what class is this paper for?
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the first benefit is to get a kick out of it.
The second one, you see quickly where you are with the jazz.
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"How will playing scrimmage basketball games improve my basketball skills?"
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Oh yeah, I can relate to that one. The motivation that comes from not wanting to get embarrassed again is incredibleAnd the hard knocks that can happen are invaluable for growth, much more so than the slaps on the back and other validation. Those are essential, but they don't tell you what you have to work on!
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Henry had a great list above (timing and form, cues, endings, intros, fours and 8ths, transposing)
Originally Posted by Dikc
Something that doesn't get mentioned often enough on this forum, IMO, is that jazz is typically played in a group and there are a whole host of skills that are unique to ensemble playing that may have little to do with the kinds of things guitarists usually obsess over.
Really getting in the pocket with other players,
getting a good sound and getting your intended dynamics to project with/over the band,
comping in a way that not only 'supports the soloist' but actually sounds good and makes everybody else sound better,
knowing how to comp for different instruments,
taking a solo that has a beginning, middle, and end and actually engages the audience,
knowing when to lay out.
Your ears are being tested in real time...
The big picture in my mind is just making something that sounds good...with others. You can't do that by yourself.
Other advantages - you meet other players, you learn (through listening or maybe conversation) about different approaches to tunes, sounds, different styles, etc.
I think most people get into jazz with this idea that you 'play the chords' when you comp and then you play lines that make the changes when you solo and that's all there is to it, but that's just the beginning! Playing with other people more opens this up.
Jam sessions specifically can be kind of rough, but I think if you want to play jazz in the traditional sense of the word jazz, you need to be playing with other people ASAP.What is your opinion about these platforms for informal learning? Positive? Negative? Why?
Jam sessions provide the ensemble experience but you don't get a ton of time, it can be a bit of a macho/show off environment (depends on the session) and you don't get any feedback typically, so...
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Excellent Jake! And I'd also add the most difficult thing many guitarists have to face and learn is how to comp with a piano player. The best way is to simply not. Just stroll, be a horn player and leave the comping to the pianist. Or if you do comp find a way to do it unobtrusively, add rather than distract, which is almost impossible if the pianist is good. This can be the reason you are either invited or not invited to play when there's a piano player on the band stand. The best place to learn this is at a jam session, not a gig.
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Hello Henry, what do you mean by
"The best way is to simply not. Just stroll, be a horn player and leave the comping to the pianist."
Could you elaborate please. If you don't comp w/a piano player, what do you do? Do you layout until a solo comes your way? Also what do you mean by "Just stroll"?
thanks Henry
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Most often, if I'm playing with a really good pianist, which I do most of the time. Stroll means to lay out, right? Most of the time there's only room for one comping instrument, otherwise it's way too confusing for everybody. Or we take turns. I might comp behind the trumpet player and he comps for the tenor. Or I comp in the bridge and he takes the rest, or I comp just very sparse, background single lines, dyads here it there and tiny comps.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 11-07-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
i have learned much from playing in small group settings...seeing how the bass player is moving the progression and if the keyboard is playing chordal melodic sequences or just enhancing the rythmic backround with simple block chords..finding a place for the guitar voice that fits naturally..not forced in or on top of another chordal or rythmic instrument..i try to use a chord sequence of inversions or a partial use of the circle of fifths/fourths in triads..(some of the players with steely dan did this) if there is space and time...
wolf
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Actually, playing with a pianist is a good way to learn to arrange on the spot. There is no reason to lay out, in fact, I often ask the pianist to lay out to create a different texture and to give the opportunity to build an orchestration behind a soloist. The guitar is a rhythm instrument as well, so "horn stabs", pushing the rhythm, won't get in the way of the pianist, and, in fact, if she's any good, she will join in, creating excitement and drive.
Unless the pianist is the leader, there is no reason to defer to them.
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Hi, great topic. I just want to make a distinction from going to an open mic jam session at a club vs. attending a private jam session with a group of friends.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the open mic type sessions held at a club. I don't think waiting around 3 hours to play 3-5 songs is an effective use of my time, though as mentioned by others it's a good way to get out and meet other musicians. And there's the possibility that you might get some gigs from it, as long as they get you up early enough for people to actually hear you.
Another problem I find with open mic jam sessions is that they're often attended by musicians that have little or no desire to play in a band. They just want to play for themselves. They don't listen, and have no interest in making a collaborated effort. I find players like that very frustrating to work with.
On the other hand; I used to host a weekly private jam at a rehearsal space. It became a regular thing and offered me the chance to play with a group for 3-4 hours straight each week. If the horn player didn't show up I got to play all the heads. If the keyboard player didn't show up I did all the comping. If the bassist didn't show up I'd play all the bass lines. If the drummer didn't show up we would play with a metronome on 2 and 4. Some sessions we would play just one tune and take it through all 12 keys. This was an invaluable experience, and helped my playing tremendously.Last edited by Dana; 11-08-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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If both people are responding to the soloist, if both are setting up the harmonic palette, if both are deciding to anticipate or lay it down, if both are setting up a dialogue with the drummer it'll get busy and confusing real fast.
Of course if it's your gig you do what your want. If it's my gig the pianist should differ to me. But we were talking about a jam session. I think the best thing is to trade or play very sparse and LISTEN. The thing is most guitarists have no clue they're stomping all over everything. I've taught ensemble classes where the biggest problems I had was getting guitar players/piano players to listen and not comp when the other person is comping. Or to have one person be the dominant.
I played with the great trumpet player Ingrid Jensen once. As soon as we started playing she stopped us and says, "Whoa! Wait. Only one person comps. I don't care who it is!" And I had barely played, doing my sparse thing behind the pianist.
It frees up a lot of attention and confusion when one person is setting up the comping. That sets up the rhythm section. THREE primary voices: drums, bass and comp. Then Freddie Green style where he is static and tucks quarter notes under the hi hat and Basie comps and tinkles it's four.
There are obviously ways of making it work, we've heard them. Mostly they're guitar player dates or with guys who really know how to do it.Last edited by henryrobinett; 11-08-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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Just to reiterate the last point again, I did a clinic on improvisation a couple of days ago. Several guitarists were there but there were attendees who played many different instruments: two bassist, two sax players, trombone, etc.. I made this point about comping when I was asking by a guitarist how I comp with a pianist: Do I take the upper or lower range? I said, of course, we decide through a glance or through playing who is going to comp. The guitar player couldn't understand. You mean you DON'T comp?? Lol. I went over all I said above. The experienced bass player, a very fine upright player agreed with me. He said you only find recording of guitarists and pianists comping at the same time if it's the guitarists record. Can I get an amen? And he said to please stay out of the lower range. That drives bass players crazy. And guitarists who like to walk bass while a bassist is walking.
Just saying.
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Great points above...wanted to add, as a big picture thang:
I think an important issue is just to consider the ensemble as a whole and keep in mind what might be redundant.
If there is a singer singing or horn player playing the melody, the guitarist does not need to double his melody in a jam session, especially if it's the melody of an old standard where it's likely that everybody is going to interpret it differently. It may be less of a big deal on something like confirmation or inner urge where the melody is more precise as you really will just get a unison of the same line, but on there will never be another you or all the things you are it's likely to get messy unless if you are really listening and doing something creative with the interplay. (any "rule" can be broken, but I think for guitarists who have only been playing the tunes for a short while, the odds are they aren't going to be able to do this in a musical, interactive way.)
So, duh, don't play a bunch of low register stuff or even worse, walk basslines, if there is a bassist!
One of my pet peeves is when I am playing a tune with another guitarist and he starts playing his chord melody arrangement for a tune - complete with bass notes, melody, and chord voicings. If he's filling up all that space, it leaves nothing for me to add. It's totally ignoring the context. I think the reason some guitarists do this is that they take time to work out this arrangement of the tune and then want to play their finished product...but that's not what playing tunes with people is!
You have to be flexible with the tunes and be able to play them high, low, busy, sparse, be able to play the melody, not play the melody, weave in and out of melody/solo/comping/bassline. And listen to the ensemble for what may be needed. laying out is always an option. If you're playing with a bassist, horn, and drummer, it's not like if there's no guitar comping then everything falls apart - horn/bass/drums duo can be really nice, and having a contrast of there sometimes being comping and sometimes not can also be really nice. Fred Hersch has said often in interviews and clinics that when he was playing with Joe Henderson he would often not comp for like the first five minutes of Joe's solo!
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Great points. some related points: some compers (eg me) tend to be afraid/anxious to lay out, especially for many bars (or choruses) and when there isn't a piano player. But paradoxically, laying out can be a great way to comp! what I mean is that you can build up tension laying out that resolves when you start to comp. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
One other little point is that as guitar players we can and often practice/play alone, and get used to playing full chords, when one really nice aspect of guitar as a comping instrument in an ensemble is when you comp with two/three note chords: say just 3rd&7th or 3rd and alteration, especially with tight voicings. So it helps to put some effort into memorizing these voicings apart from the usual barre chord/CAGED chords we usually focus on.
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Something else that works sometimes is playing a pad - long sustained chords, maybe with a lot of delay,, reverb to counter the more rhythmic piano. And in this case just using two notes and trying to create a slow moving line. Compositional background part.
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I always liked the way Monk comped. "here's a 7 and a b9, on the and of 3, bitch."
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Obviously there is a real art to good comping. I love good comping. It rounds out the entire rhythm section. The language and communication between the drummer and pianist/guitarist is a great thing. Pianists are better at what I'm talking about than most guitarist. Bickert was great, but he did the middle of the road jazz standard style. Corea is brilliant as is Herbie, of course and a ton of no name compers behind singers.
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Trick question?
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Listening to all the strong differing opinions on what to do in a jam session, comping, etc., is further proof of why people should attend jam sessions as an opportunity to get their shit together. From what I've read here, I'd only hire a couple of you for a real gig.
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Guitar wise, best compers, IMHO...
Jim Hall
Doug Raney
those guys can comp....there's more too, just the first off my head...always add to the music.
oh, Lionel Loueke too. And Matt Stevens, but in a more "riff based" way.
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I've never been to a jazz jam. I took a workshop and didn't like it. I thought I might learn something but I didn't. The instructor seemed to hate his job and that was a distraction the whole time.
Jazz jams in public seem to be unique. I can't draw on any of my previous experience that might help in that situation. I imagine all kinds of scenarios where things can go wrong. There's the bass player that used to play guitar and switched to bass. There's the speed demon who loves testing people. There's the guy who can't handle his liquor who's annoying me while I wait to play. I worry about people holding back too much. I worry about being too loud or not loud enough. I worry about sounding great on one song and blowing it on the next one.
I could write a book full of excuses but in the end you need to jam with as many people as possible when you're young.
Me? I just don't get around much anymore.......
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