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  1. #1
    What do you do when you start to love the music that pretty much everyone else hates?

    I've played over 20 years, studied some classical and jazz. I'm no virtuoso, but I guess I just mean to say that I have some conventional knowledge and technical ability, and am not drawn to free-jazz and other abstract stuff out of lack of ability to understand or play anything else. But I'm finding myself more and more drawn to weird, abstract, avant-garde improv styles.

    It started some months ago, when preparing to record some solo chord-melody stuff, I spent some time running the tape and playing whatever randomness I came across, getting all the "wrong notes" out of the system and just becoming more comfortable playing in a studio setting. I listened back to these takes and found that I really liked some of them. And while they were all composed of random, senseless guitar-bberish, some takes were notably better than others. I couldn't explain it, it was just one of those musical epiphonies. And now, I can't stop. I'm not terribly interested in playing any other way.

    So, what do you do with this kind of musical interest? It's kind of a small following. "Wanted: freaky atonal music with no discernable key or time signature for wedding reception" isn't something I see often in my local newspaper. How do you market this crap?

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  3. #2

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    There is no market for it! Also it's really the masters of tonality who create the best atonal music, imo. It's not just hitting random notes, there's an intelligence to well composed atonal music. I know that for myself, it's because I know where are the right notes are that I can create interesting atonal lines. You don't make much $ playing jazz to begin with. Playing atonal / avant garde you will make much less (probably nothing). If you enjoy doing it, then do it. But obviously only playing what you like (especially if everyone else hates it) is not a good formula for a career in music, unless you actually like playing pop music.

  4. #3
    Sure, I'm aware that creating interesting atonal lines is more a science than a crapshoot. I guess by "randomness" I was referring more to a disregard for conventional themes and structures, but not to just letting the hands fall where they may. And while my initial interest was sparked by accident, I'm not just hoping to wing-it and get great results.

  5. #4

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    It worked for Derek Bailey.

  6. #5

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    Conviction and career only come together of few people. So if it's your thing then do it where ever you can and develop a following usually you'll be doing a lot free gigs or low pay like art galleries, coffee houses, etc. If you can develop a following it could become a career. David Bowie was doing his Ziggy thing for ten years before he became the "new artist", it all about commitment to your art.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Conviction and career only come together of few people. So if it's your thing then do it where ever you can and develop a following usually you'll be doing a lot free gigs or low pay like art galleries, coffee houses, etc. If you can develop a following it could become a career. David Bowie was doing his Ziggy thing for ten years before he became the "new artist", it all about commitment to your art.
    Your referring to your music as "freaky, asbstract atonal meanderings" kind of points to the fact that your take on what you do is still novel and reactionary. That's a phase, the novelty phase, the fascination phase of something that may or may not become a coherent system. If you indeed want to play this for other people, even to get them to appreciate it, it's going to have to be a whole lot more than freaky meanderings.
    Yeah, some people like freaky for freaky sake but as music, I think you'll get to a point when what you do will begin to be as familiar as playing standards, and maybe to others it will be freaky, but that won't matter.
    Some people think of all music beyond Wagner as atonal. It's "all freaky". Bartok, Webern, Lygeti it's all the same. Not so when you think deeply to the lexicon, syntax and semantics of the music; when you really understand.
    When Coltrane began playing outside the written changes, some people only heard freaky. It was a superficial understanding and they played that way. Their music is not lasting. It would not sell but to freak seekers.
    I think it's really great you found something that sparked you. Approach it like an animal you've never seen before. Don't try to apply known rules to it. Get to know what it is you like and get control over it. And don't try to tame it too soon, don't ride it like you would things you've known before. Don't try to sell it before you can control it. I like docbop's take on it.
    Make it solid and consistently beautiful for you before you expect others to make judgement and ...pay for it?
    David

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by amusiathread
    What do you do when you start to love the music that pretty much everyone else hates?

    I've played over 20 years, studied some classical and jazz. I'm no virtuoso, but I guess I just mean to say that I have some conventional knowledge and technical ability, and am not drawn to free-jazz and other abstract stuff out of lack of ability to understand or play anything else. But I'm finding myself more and more drawn to weird, abstract, avant-garde improv styles.
    There's a pretty long history (not to mention a hidden world) in the freer/less tonal realms of jazz. This web site:

    destination: OUT

    is a great hang if you want to explore out music coming from the jazz tradition.

    As far as playing it goes, it helps to have like minded musicians to play with. Don't mistake atonal (or even free) music for music with no structure. And expect ridicule from traditionalists.....

    Incidentally, a great way to "break the ice" when you are first playing with new musicians is to play free, it gets you to listen and interact without getting distracted by technical or structure issues.

  9. #8

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    It's important to remember that playing free doesn't mean the abondonment of the fundamentals. Take listening for instance, being able to react appropriately in a 'free situation' with other players is going to take a very good ear and an understanding of timbre and texture.

    Some of the supporting structures you normally fall back upon will not work and all those hot licks can suddenly sound out of place.

    I have also found that the more serious players in this genre can be very picky about ensemble interaction and totally intolerant of cliches. They are dead serious about it rather than simply being reactionary.

    I was taken apart by Malcolm Goldstien once upon a time about all of this and given a great coaching. A tough lesson but a lasting one.

  10. #9

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    this is too far afield for me. nevertheless i will offer one possibility to consider


    - why not work your way into this? build skill going outside a little bit, then more and more over time. become deft and skilled at doing it artfully. listen to and learn from those who have done it masterfully before diving into musical anarchy head fiirst.

  11. #10

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    It might be worth checking out the Derek Bailey biog "Derek Bailey & the story of Free Improvisation" by Ben Watson - gives soem insight into how it can be done. Also look at John Zorn's approach - particularly in his early career - he didn't wait for the music to happen - he went out & made it happen

  12. #11

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    I feel it's as valid an area of creativity as any other type of jazz, as long as it's real. Some of us reach the point where this is the direction things head when we feel like we're really expressing ourselves in an honest way. It takes as much work and commitment as any other style of jazz, but less musicians and even less of an audience are interested in it.

    It only speaks to a few, and again there's really not much of a market for it. Even the best at it never make much money, it's more about getting it heard by an audience, and lots of sacrifices to be made doing that, just like any other jazz, just harder. Every artist has to make personal decisions about their art.

  13. #12
    Thanks for the insights and opinions, I appreciate your words.

    Luckily, I do have a pretty good job, so I'm not too worried about putting food on the table. I do care about sharing music, getting out and getting heard by people, and while I've never had any reservations about being on the fringe (jazz, for instance), it's being on the fringe of the fringe (free-jazz), that has me feeling a bit apprehensive.

    I guess part of what I'm asking for in this post is this: what is your initial reaction when a friend of yours says "hey, let's go check out this show tonight, it's free-jazz (or avant garde-improv, or whatever other title you think describes what I'm takling about)." Do you wince? Does it even get a second thought from you? Or are you curious? And how do you go about marketing/talking about this, spreading the word or whatever, in a way that makes people curious, rather than gets them thinking of pretentious drivel, interpretive dance, and "chemically-enhanced" states?

  14. #13

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    ok. if you put it like that.


    if a friend said that i wouldn't go. i wouldn't go to a full show of it.

    but then i'm not as young as i used to be so have become very selective. i only have time to see really great stuff - but - if a great band worked in a tune in this style to break things up once or twice that would be just fine, even appreciated.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by amusiathread
    what is your initial reaction when a friend of yours says "hey, let's go check out this show tonight, it's free-jazz (or avant garde-improv, or whatever other title you think describes what I'm takling about)?
    I love music with many levels of freedom, provided it's played by musicians that are listening and reacting to one another, and playing with intent.

    There are some who've got the right clothes, read the right books, put on the airs but cannot hear, cannot listen / react, and truly play randomly. These are the charlatans. I wish I could say that there's just a few of them, but unfortunately, there's quite a few.

    I find that the players that I enjoy who often play with freedom, know their instrument, have great ears, listen and react to one another, and play with intent.

  16. #15

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    It's very, very weird. In Sacramento, of all places, the free, atonal, abstract, arty music thing has become quite big. There's a group of guys who book all kind of things - art galleries, a cafe, various spots around town CONSTANTLY. Not a lot of harmonic playing. The guitar player who books the bands doesn't play a lot a changes, so he doesn't hang with the boppers. And he gets grief because a lot of the boppers think he can't play But he gets some great conceptual stuff going on the guitar. Very cool.

    So there is a jazz/bop/modern jazz thing happening here, but it seems like the real scene is free. Strange. It's whatever you put there and however is willing to do the work. And there's always an arty crow for it. And I love it when I get a call to do some random gig with some of those guys. The unspoken phrase is "don't play anything with chords." I bring my effects and go completely nuts. Fun.

    And I love it when some folk are surprised I can play that style so well. I had one guy ask before I played once, "Can you do this? Your band plays really compositionally." I think he was surprised. I cut my eye teeth on free, abstract music. That's actually kind of where I started. It was a good entry way.

  17. #16

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    And I might say, this guy, Ross Hammond, who books the stuff, has got quite a network going. He just came back from New York. He plays these little self booked tours with good players, guys who play free well, and they play Oakland, Portland, Seattle.

    That should serve as a lesson to me. If HE can get a scene going playing free music, in this day and age, I certainly should be able to get a scene going for my own music again!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by amusiathread
    Thanks for the insights and opinions, I appreciate your words.

    Luckily, I do have a pretty good job, so I'm not too worried about putting food on the table. I do care about sharing music, getting out and getting heard by people, and while I've never had any reservations about being on the fringe (jazz, for instance), it's being on the fringe of the fringe (free-jazz), that has me feeling a bit apprehensive.

    I guess part of what I'm asking for in this post is this: what is your initial reaction when a friend of yours says "hey, let's go check out this show tonight, it's free-jazz (or avant garde-improv, or whatever other title you think describes what I'm takling about)." Do you wince? Does it even get a second thought from you? Or are you curious? And how do you go about marketing/talking about this, spreading the word or whatever, in a way that makes people curious, rather than gets them thinking of pretentious drivel, interpretive dance, and "chemically-enhanced" states?
    I'm guessing the biggest difficulty is that most venues want music that will draw people in, and make them want to stay for a longer period of time (and spend more money) and avant garde music could in many cases have the exact opposite effect. But it depends on the venue. If it were a place where you expect that sort of thing (like perhaps a modern art gallery or a coffee shop where all the intellectuals hang out), then it would be fine. But if someone goes to a typical bar / restaraunt / coffee shop and walks into that...they may turn and leave.

    I would go check it out if it weren't too far out of the way. I've not heard much avant garde jazz that I liked though. I have heard (and performed) some atonal & polytonal classical music that I liked and some of it was truly sublime. If you have a good job already and you love playing this stuff, then go for it. I think in this type of situation though, the internet will be your best friend and best way to market yourself. Get a youtube, cdbaby, itunes, myspace, fb, website going for the express purpose of displaying your music and promoting it.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    I'm guessing the biggest difficulty is that most venues want music that will draw people in, and make them want to stay for a longer period of time (and spend more money) and avant garde music could in many cases have the exact opposite effect. But it depends on the venue. If it were a place where you expect that sort of thing (like perhaps a modern art gallery or a coffee shop where all the intellectuals hang out), then it would be fine. But if someone goes to a typical bar / restaraunt / coffee shop and walks into that...they may turn and leave.

    I would go check it out if it weren't too far out of the way. I've not heard much avant garde jazz that I liked though. I have heard (and performed) some atonal & polytonal classical music that I liked and some of it was truly sublime. If you have a good job already and you love playing this stuff, then go for it. I think in this type of situation though, the internet will be your best friend and best way to market yourself. Get a youtube, cdbaby, itunes, myspace, fb, website going for the express purpose of displaying your music and promoting it.

    where all the intellectuals hang out? well, bohemian left bankers maybe. they probably think they're intellectual though. haha.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    where all the intellectuals hang out? well, bohemian left bankers maybe. they probably think they're intellectual though. haha.
    That scene does tend to attract plenty of young boho's trying awfully hard to be great artistic geniuses - I like to go to my local hip bookshop and flick through the WIRE magazine (not wired the hi-tech mag) then put it back on the shelf. The avant-garde scene often puts great effort into the visual aesthetic, very groovy, just not so much into putting the notes together. Rather hard work that.

  21. #20

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    It's definitely as much a part of the art scene as it is the music scene, IMO. You have to approach it in the same way as any other gig. Research artists that do the same thing, see where they play, who they play with etc. Mainstream jazz is a small niche market, and this stuff is even smaller. It's hard to find a committed bunch of musicians willing to make the sacrifices to pursue it, unless you intend to do it solo.

    I'm one of those guys that might ask a friend to accompany me to go hear something like this, and nobody is really interested to do it. I've been to some performances where there were less than a dozen people in the audience, I guarantee you, they weren't playing for the money, it was for the chance to play for people. It really does take your own initiate to create performance opportunities for yourself, because the musicians actually are the promoters in this genre.

  22. #21
    That there isn't a local avant-garde scene here is both an advantage and a disadvantage. A disadvantage that any kind of promotion and building any kind of "scene" for it has to be done by scratch, but an advantage, I guess, that there really aren't many preconceptions to work against. There is an art scene around here with some great talent, a very weak music scene in terms of jazz, despite having a respectable music program at the university. There's lots of pseudo-intellectualism, but it isn't necessarily bound to the art or music scene.

    So,I wouldn't have to quit taking showers to fit in with a pre-established scene. That's nice, since I have always been fond of them (showers, I mean). I think around here, any preconceptions regarding free-improv would lean less toward intellectualism or pretentiousness, and more towards hippies, free love, and chemically-enhanced consciousness (no offense meant to anyone here, there's nothing wrong with that scene, it just isn't for me), but there isn't an actual scene to reinforce the preconception.

    So how does one change the direction of the conversation? What can one do to help shape that image so as to say "this music is pretty different, but we're not pretentious jerks, we know our instruments pretty darn well, and you don't have to be high or unshowered to enjoy it"?

    Thanks again for the insight so far.

  23. #22

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    oh boy. i don't know where you live but i am tempted to say don't try. and i am tempted to say move to New York.
    sometimes, it's just too much of a stretch.


    on the other hand, the academic world is full of modern music improvisors, composers, and players, even in the flyover states (where I'm from). but i would not suggest that you quit your day job to live in the hallowed halls of academia unless you're independently wealthy.

  24. #23

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    Just go for it man! You've got nothing to lose! Get a gig, play your stuff and c what happens. Or change your rythymic approach to more of a rock type delivery and some of those "atonal" things become "cool" crunchy rock chords/ riffs. You still get to play what you want, you just have a more "presentable" or palatable package. Cool thread. Good ideas.

  25. #24

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  26. #25

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    Freedom to play the wrong notes. From the guy who usually teaches how to become a technique ninja using his "effortless mastery" concept. The irony. Great wisdom about free jazz.