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  1. #1

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    A famous actor said something in a Youtube interview that resonated for me. He was describing his technique, and he said that he always kept the following idea in mind when giving one of his famously intense performances:

    "Do something that people will pay to see."

    I'm trying to keep this in mind as a musician.

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtfree
    A famous actor said something in a Youtube interview that resonated for me. He was describing his technique, and he said that he always kept the following idea in mind when giving one of his famously intense performances:

    "Do something that people will pay to see."

    I'm trying to keep this in mind as a musician.
    I'm curious as to who said that.
    Last edited by paynow; 06-10-2012 at 08:18 PM.

  4. #3

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    Tangentially related, in a way - "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste (or intelligence, someone else said) of the American public." The other side of the commerciality coin?

  5. #4

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    I want to play the smartest music people will listen to and like. By the way, the single tune after 21 years of doing this that fits that category best is Peaches En Regalia.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtfree

    "Do something that people will pay to see."
    On a similar note:

    Last night I stumbled upon Glen Frey of the Eagles being interviewed on Tavis Smiley's show on PBS. He was talking about when he and Henley first got to LA and were coming to grips with the fact that they really needed to start writing some good songs if they were going to stick around in the record business, the competition being what it was. One piece of advice he got from a well known, elder-statesman songwriter (I forget who) was, "Nobody cares how you feel." You've got to paint pictures and tell stories in your writing. "People want to be entertained."

    Made sense to me. Tavis and Glenn were having such a fun time with the interview - it was actually pretty interesting - that they were going to continue it on to tonight's episode.

  7. #6

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    I don't think I've ever felt more contempt for an audience before I started playing jazz.

    With the innovation of bebop, we got a form of music that was meant for focused listening, personal reflection, and self expression. That's when jazz became a music for listening instead of dancing, but I realize these are different times.

    I find it increasingly difficult with every gig to respect the general audience member when all they do is talk with their friends at the front table for the entire night and request Call Me Maybe.

    I'm only 25, and I'm already bitter. That's probably not good.
    Last edited by chrisnewlin; 07-12-2012 at 01:45 AM.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnewlin
    I don't think I've ever felt more contempt for an audience before I started playing jazz.

    With the innovation of bebop, we got a form of music that was meant for focused listening, personal reflection, and self expression. That's when jazz became a music for listening instead of dancing, but I realize these are different times.

    I find it increasingly difficult with every gig to respect the general audience member when all they do is talk with their friends at the front table for the entire night and request Call Me Maybe.

    I'm only 25, and I'm already bitter. That's probably not good.
    The problem lies within part of the former statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Phlatt Wound
    " You've got to paint pictures and tell stories in your writing. "People want to be entertained."
    .

    While story telling and painting a picture is an important aspect, this is an art after all, as soon as we started training audiences to be "entertained" the downfall occurred IMHO. While art can be entertaining, great art is not in and of itself conceived to be entertaining, it is made to make a statement consisting of many concepts and techniques, pushing boundaries and exploring new plateaus. While this attitude will not put money in your pocket it will allow for great art. One has to ask themselves, am I an entertainer, or am I an artist? If both, then how much and to what degree am I of one or the other, and what am I willing/having to give up for the sake of the other?

    Most artists die penniless and are not appreciated even in posterity. Only the very lucky make it big. In todays world "making it" has very little to do with talent or content. How many Bill Evans or Miles Davis's were there in the world that we never knew of? Look at Amhad Jamal. He was Miles go to guy, yet never received the kudos or eclat, much less recognition that he deserved as a Master. I am sure you all can think of someone that is not mainstream who is a completely off the charts monster, deserving of recognition...They walk among us today...

    The people who want to be entertained are happy with karaoke, do you really think they give a shit about talent? Remember these people think America Has Talent or American Idol, is what talent is. 95% of the people listen to 5% of the music available to them. What does this tell you? This is why it is even more important IMHO that the arts be taught and preserved lest they die out because of ignorance..If you want to be an entertainer jazz is not the field to be in...Sad but true.
    Last edited by brwnhornet59; 07-12-2012 at 02:14 AM.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
    Most artists die penniless and are not appreciated even in posterity.
    This reminds me of two things that the great short-story writer Flannery O'Connor said.

    One was, "Many a best-seller could have been prevented by a good teacher."

    The other was, when asked if writing programs stifled writers, said. "Not enough of them."

    If you can spend your life playing music you love, dying penniless and unappreciated should not concern you. If you yearn for fame and fortune, jazz is a unlikely boulevard to take to riches. But if you want to play music, then the relative poverty of jazz is actually a *bonus*: no one bothers you, leaving you more time to play!

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
    The problem lies within part of the former statement:.

    While story telling and painting a picture is an important aspect, this is an art after all, as soon as we started training audiences to be "entertained" the downfall occurred IMHO. While art can be entertaining, great art is not in and of itself conceived to be entertaining, it is made to make a statement consisting of many concepts and techniques, pushing boundaries and exploring new plateaus. While this attitude will not put money in your pocket it will allow for great art. One has to ask themselves, am I an entertainer, or am I an artist? If both, then how much and to what degree am I of one or the other, and what am I willing/having to give up for the sake of the other?

    Most artists die penniless and are not appreciated even in posterity. Only the very lucky make it big. In todays world "making it" has very little to do with talent or content. How many Bill Evans or Miles Davis's were there in the world that we never knew of? Look at Amhad Jamal. He was Miles go to guy, yet never received the kudos or eclat, much less recognition that he deserved as a Master. I am sure you all can think of someone that is not mainstream who is a completely off the charts monster, deserving of recognition...They walk among us today...

    The people who want to be entertained are happy with karaoke, do you really think they give a shit about talent? Remember these people think America Has Talent or American Idol, is what talent is. 95% of the people listen to 5% of the music available to them. What does this tell you? This is why it is even more important IMHO that the arts be taught and preserved lest they die out because of ignorance..If you want to be an entertainer jazz is not the field to be in...Sad but true.
    Very well said and I agree with all of it. This is the main reason I now only collect guitars and play for myself, with the occasional jam amongst friends. I'll never gig again . . . . . absolutely NO desire to do so.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    Very well said and I agree with all of it. This is the main reason I now only collect guitars and play for myself, with the occasional jam amongst friends. I'll never gig again . . . . . absolutely NO desire to do so.
    Well said Patrick, I am headed that direction also. I love to play anytime, anywhere but common sense and my old body tells me I need to slow down, maybe take an occasional gig and spend more time playing, enjoying and studying the the music I love.

    wiz

  12. #11

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    That's the reason I don't play professionally. There aren't enough "good gigs"(Gigs with jazz audience who shuts up and listens) around to put food on my table every day, so if I was to make a living exclusively from playing music, I'd have to play all kinds of music I have no interest in.
    That'd be kind of like a prostitute having a client she can't stand. Shutting off all senses until the ordeal is over.
    I don't want that in my experience with music. Never.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnewlin
    I don't think I've ever felt more contempt for an audience before I started playing jazz.

    With the innovation of bebop, we got a form of music that was meant for focused listening, personal reflection, and self expression. That's when jazz became a music for listening instead of dancing, but I realize these are different times.

    I find it increasingly difficult with every gig to respect the general audience member when all they do is talk with their friends at the front table for the entire night and request Call Me Maybe.

    I'm only 25, and I'm already bitter. That's probably not good.
    It was this way when I was 25, over 20 years ago. No difference. People would ask for "Take Five" (usually not knowing the name), or that "Peanuts Thing" (Linus And Lucy). You have to get used to it. It's not really a world that appreciates jazz.

    The OP started this with the indication that a "famous actor" said you have to do something people will pay to see. I asked who said it. I'd like to know. I'd like to see the interview. I still don't know who this "famous actor" is. Someone with actual gravitas or someone from a reality show? I don't mean to be insulting but a lot of what we classify as "acting" is horses--t and the people who we credit it to aren't very good, though they may be famous.

    Acting is my profession. The difference between acting for people and playing jazz for them is fairly profound. You can get folks to dig Shakespeare if you do it right and if a lot of chatting is going on they'll usually be removed from the theater. People at least shut up and listen, even if it's really abstract stuff like "Waiting For Godot" or something and they hate it can't wrap their brains around it. The only thing I can liken to playing jazz in restaurants is when you do theme park type work and you have kids throwing up on you and telling you how much you suck.

    Brown, you are right on the money with your comment.
    Last edited by paynow; 07-12-2012 at 01:01 PM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnewlin
    I don't think I've ever felt more contempt for an audience before I started playing jazz.

    With the innovation of bebop, we got a form of music that was meant for focused listening, personal reflection, and self expression. That's when jazz became a music for listening instead of dancing, but I realize these are different times.

    I find it increasingly difficult with every gig to respect the general audience member when all they do is talk with their friends at the front table for the entire night and request Call Me Maybe.

    I'm only 25, and I'm already bitter. That's probably not good.
    I was having those kind of feelings 35~40 years ago playing in rock bands in bars. Having drunks gush all over you endlessly for nailing the solo in Takin' Care of Business got real tired in a hurry for me.

    Jazz is a hard sell for a mainstream audience because it's mainly mental masturbation for the players. I've got friends who hate jazz because it "sounds like somebody practicing". Who, aside from other jazz players, is going to appreciate that b5 tritone sub of the super locrian melodic minor alt scale on the sus4 of the dominant resolved to a #5#7 half whole diminished triad?

    I like jazz. I like learning jazz. I like playing jazz. But I don't really care if other people want to hear it. I realize that they don't want to take the effort to understand it. Look how long it took and how hard it was to understand as a learning musician. If you've got another life you're not going buy in.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
    The problem lies within part of the former statement:.

    While story telling and painting a picture is an important aspect, this is an art after all, as soon as we started training audiences to be "entertained" the downfall occurred IMHO.
    If one isn't interested in "entertaining" an audience why ever would one be up in front of an audience to begin with?

    If one is such an incredible "artist" that no one on earth can understand or be "entertained" by their art then they should just be happy with the act of doing their art and skip the whole "audience" thing. And also, not expect to make a living that way.

    It's all the talk about "jazz is dead" and how hard it is to make a living in jazz that contradict that. Many jazzers seem to think that audiences should be "entertained" by their art and the audience members are somehow inferior people if they're not.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlatt Wound
    If one isn't interested in "entertaining" an audience why ever would one be up in front of an audience to begin with?

    If one is such an incredible "artist" that no one on earth can understand or be "entertained" by their art then they should just be happy with the act of doing their art and skip the whole "audience" thing. And also, not expect to make a living that way.

    It's all the talk about "jazz is dead" and how hard it is to make a living in jazz that contradict that. Many jazzers seem to think that audiences should be "entertained" by their art and the audience members are somehow inferior people if they're not.
    I used to care if the audience was entertained when I first got into this. I thought it was important to play tunes that the audience would respond well to, and I was obsessed with making sure they thought I did a great job. In the rock band I'm in, that MO still works, and I'm happy to continue smiling and nodding because it means so little to me. The amount of money I make from those gigs and royalty statements is staggering (though still not a ton) compared to what I make playing jazz.

    I'm not concerned with trying to entertain an audience playing jazz, because they're mostly too busy entertaining themselves like I mentioned before. It's just the fact that those are closed minded individuals with no intellectual curiosity at all. They are not interested in challenging their minds or doing anything that might make them more evolved or well rounded human beings when it comes to music. It's mental laziness.

    Does that make jazz musicians better than their audience because they are open to challenging their mind and growing as people? In a way, I think it does.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlatt Wound
    I was having those kind of feelings 35~40 years ago playing in rock bands in bars. Having drunks gush all over you endlessly for nailing the solo in Takin' Care of Business got real tired in a hurry for me.


    I like jazz. I like learning jazz. I like playing jazz. But I don't really care if other people want to hear it. I realize that they don't want to take the effort to understand it. Look how long it took and how hard it was to understand as a learning musician. If you've got another life you're not going buy in.
    Ever get what Billy Joel mentions in "Piano Man": "Man, what are you doing here!" I got that sitting on a bar stool in Harry's Open Door playing my Ovation and singing side one of Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" and then Side two! It was funny. I was eighteen and playing for beer. It was, as was then said, "an experience." But not something I want to keep doing.

    The other thing you said is something we too rarely consider: look how much much work it took *us* to appreciate much of what we now treasure!!! Why should we expect non-musicians to put that kind of work into something that's going to be background music for a much-needed night out? We don't feel we should become experts on movies before going to a movie--we just want to see a good movie, or read a good book, or hear a funny comic, whatever.

    Being an audience for jazz players is no one's job!

  18. #17

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    Many of the comments in this thread could apply just as well to other forms of artistic expression. I’m sure there are many painters and writers who yearn to create work that’s challenging and abstract, but know it doesn’t pay as well as something that sits in the mainstream. We have much in common with our friends in other areas of the arts. Some problems just have no solution (just ask any mathematician).

    For what it’s worth (after 35 years of playing guitar) my philosophy is simply to play each gig as skilfully and professionally as I possibly can, no matter how small the fee or how indifferent the audience. It’s up to the individual as to how much he/she wants to “entertain”, but first and foremost must be the player’s respect for the music itself. Play with pride and enthusiasm at all times, no matter what. The listener who didn’t cared about the music to begin with is not our concern, but never, ever be the player who is responsible for a listener losing his/her interest because the band don’t seem to care either.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlatt Wound
    If one isn't interested in "entertaining" an audience why ever would one be up in front of an audience to begin with?
    As I stated originally. Art can be entertaining, but that is not the purpose of it's creation, at least for most artists. While artists want to share their work, they are not motivated by making art that is entertaining for it's own sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phlatt Wound
    If one is such an incredible "artist" that no one on earth can understand or be "entertained" by their art then they should just be happy with the act of doing their art and skip the whole "audience" thing. And also, not expect to make a living that way.
    The relevance of this statement pertaining to my OP eludes me. You must be projecting about a different post.

    What I did say is that jazz artists are playing to audiences that think american idol defines what talent is, therefore we are confounded and set up for failure by the sheer volume of uneducated people thinking this way. Why would they listen? They do not know how because they do not understand it. This is not a criticism but a reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phlatt Wound
    It's all the talk about "jazz is dead" and how hard it is to make a living in jazz that contradict that. Many jazzers seem to think that audiences should be "entertained" by their art and the audience members are somehow inferior people if they're not.

    Jazz dead? It is on it's way out if awareness of the art is not preserved. But dead? Not yet. That is why it is important to keep it out there. Making a living with it is a totally different story.

    Whether audiences are entertained by jazz or not is no excuse for poor manners. But what would anyone expect in a room full of people drinking? Anymore that is the only venue for the little guy to be heard. As for an artists ego, that is their worst enemy.

    If you want to entertain, pick a different format. If you want to play jazz, except mediocre responses from the audience and know that you will be poor. I was never in any musical situation for the money. Money is necessary but not important. Preserving and furthering the art is my goal.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
    Whether audiences are entertained by jazz or not is no excuse for poor manners. But what would anyone expect in a room full of people drinking? Anymore that is the only venue for the little guy to be heard. As for an artists ego, that is their worst enemy.

    If you want to entertain, pick a different format. If you want to play jazz, except mediocre responses from the audience and know that you will be poor. I was never in any musical situation for the money. Money is necessary but not important. Preserving and furthering the art is my goal.
    Pretty much. The same courtesy should be extended to us. I don't go to where those people work that sit in the front of the club and talk all night and yell in their ear about my friend's baby who just used the potty for the first time. But that's perfectly okay for them.

    Pat Metheny said something to the effect of "at its best, jazz is the the greatest thing in the world." I'm paraphrasing, but like all the arts, it is a means of self expression. There is no reason to consider anything other than how it makes you as an individual feel, public be damned.

  21. #20

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    I understand how a lot of you feel when it comes to jazz as an art but please don't look down on those of us who don't get into jazz as deeply. I'm primarily an entertainer. In my culture, entertaining people is a very positive thing because it make people feel good. That's why I volunteer at the nursing home to play dinner music. I know they hear what I'm playing even though they yak at the table because the residents like what I do from their comments and want me to keep coming back. I'm not competing with anyone trying to earn a living since they're not able to pay so I'm not taking food out of anyone's mouth. I'm sure some of you believe I shouldn't call myself a jazz guitarist even though I play jazz from the 30s and 40s and improvise or at least try to but that really doesn't affect me. We each play for a different reason and should be respected for it, not looked down upon for such reason. I don't intend to single out anyone here and I definitely don't want this post to be taken as a hostile one I just want to make sure I'm still accepted here among you.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
    I understand how a lot of you feel when it comes to jazz as an art but please don't look down on those of us who don't get into jazz as deeply. I'm primarily an entertainer. In my culture, entertaining people is a very positive thing because it make people feel good. That's why I volunteer at the nursing home to play dinner music. I know they hear what I'm playing even though they yak at the table because the residents like what I do from their comments and want me to keep coming back. I'm not competing with anyone trying to earn a living since they're not able to pay so I'm not taking food out of anyone's mouth. I'm sure some of you believe I shouldn't call myself a jazz guitarist even though I play jazz from the 30s and 40s and improvise or at least try to but that really doesn't affect me. We each play for a different reason and should be respected for it, not looked down upon for such reason. I don't intend to single out anyone here and I definitely don't want this post to be taken as a hostile one I just want to make sure I'm still accepted here among you.

    No one was attacking the players my friend. You are doing a fine job and have been a great supporting influence in this forum since I started posting here. It is of no consequence whether one is an entertainer or an artist. Play what gives you joy. Be well!

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
    No one was attacking the players my friend. You are doing a fine job and have been a great supporting influence in this forum since I started posting here. It is of no consequence whether one is an entertainer or an artist. Play what gives you joy. Be well!
    Great. Thanks so much for your honest feelings. I know how you must feel when you play some outrageously good lines and harmonies and some boob in the audience says, "I can't hear the melody. The guy sounds like he's practicing". I had that in my own profession when I was trying to clean out a neglected tooth and the patient said "What the hell are you doing in there?
    You working or just diggin' around?". I should have replaced the anesthetic with salt water.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
    I understand how a lot of you feel when it comes to jazz as an art but please don't look down on those of us who don't get into jazz as deeply. I'm primarily an entertainer. In my culture, entertaining people is a very positive thing because it make people feel good. That's why I volunteer at the nursing home to play dinner music. I know they hear what I'm playing even though they yak at the table because the residents like what I do from their comments and want me to keep coming back. I'm not competing with anyone trying to earn a living since they're not able to pay so I'm not taking food out of anyone's mouth. I'm sure some of you believe I shouldn't call myself a jazz guitarist even though I play jazz from the 30s and 40s and improvise or at least try to but that really doesn't affect me. We each play for a different reason and should be respected for it, not looked down upon for such reason. I don't intend to single out anyone here and I definitely don't want this post to be taken as a hostile one I just want to make sure I'm still accepted here among you.
    We're all in this together, for different reasons, but together all the same. I don't look down on anyone who has invested any amount of time into learning this music.

    If you're playing the music from that era and improvising with it, I don't see how anyone could accuse you of not being a jazz guitarist. That's what we do.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
    That's the reason I don't play professionally. There aren't enough "good gigs"(Gigs with jazz audience who shuts up and listens) around to put food on my table every day, so if I was to make a living exclusively from playing music, I'd have to play all kinds of music I have no interest in.
    That'd be kind of like a prostitute having a client she can't stand. Shutting off all senses until the ordeal is over.
    I don't want that in my experience with music. Never.
    I'm not sure why you add the "having a client she can't stand".

    Are you saying that jazz musicians who have good gigs are like prostitutes who have clients they like?

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by jster
    I'm not sure why you add the "having a client she can't stand".

    Are you saying that jazz musicians who have good gigs are like prostitutes who have clients they like?
    It was pretty obvious (to me anyway) that Amund was referring to playing other styles that he could not stand, would make him feel like a prostitute. I could not agree more.