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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    markerhodes - have you read many Bird biographies? For as damaged as he was and for as much of a con man as he was, he was extremely articulate and apparently could converse with anyone about anything.


    To understand Bird, I would imagine, one has to take the context of the 30s and the 40s in pre and post war America for a black man. Kansas City, gangsters and upward mobility. Bird was about survival and arriving. Jazz is about that spontaneous moment of WHO I AM.
    Henry, by your own lights, you are saying that when you say "to understand Bird" you mean to "to understand Bird the way I understand Bird..." Well, maybe understanding him the way you do is not my goal. (Frankly, I love the music but have little interest in understanding Bird as a person. I rarely take an interest in the inner / personal lives of musicians. I rarely read biographies, and almost never biographies of musicians.) But I will say this, I think it entirely possible that a Jewish musician born in Russia during the Soviet empire could "get" Bird in a way none of his neighbors from Kansas City ever did.

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  3. #52

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    Yes, but you were saying that Charlie Parker wasn't saying anything. If you're going to make a statement like that you should know what you're talking about and trying to understand the music, or don't say anything.

    To understand be bop you have to understand the historical context in which it was born. You can play and dig bop without knowing this, but you won't REALLY understand the music. If you're going back and checking out Bird and early Monk and Bud Powell and Dizzy, you will come to this understanding by just listening and reading some liner notes. Especially if you know anything about WWII and post war America.

    Of course a jewish born russian musician during USSR days would understand. You don't have to be black to understand. I never said you had to be and never implied this.

  4. #53

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    quote=henryrobinett;243435Yes, but you were saying that Charlie Parker wasn't saying anything. If you're going to make a statement like that you should know what you're talking about and trying to understand the music, or don't say anything.

    To understand be bop you have to understand the historical context in which it was born. You can play and dig bop without knowing this, but you won't REALLY understand the music.
    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

    That's almost as funny as the line that Wesley Snipes delivers to Woody Harrilsen in "White Men Can't Jump" . . . "You might be listening to Jimi . . but, you're not hearing him. Listening to him and hearing him are two different things".

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    quote=henryrobinett;243435Yes, but you were saying that Charlie Parker wasn't saying anything. If you're going to make a statement like that you should know what you're talking about and trying to understand the music, or don't say anything.



    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

    That's almost as funny as the line that Wesley Snipes delivers to Woody Harrilsen in "White Men Can't Jump" . . . "You might be listening to Jimi . . but, you're not hearing him. Listening to him and hearing him are two different things".
    In what way? What exactly are you saying? I'm not talking about racism here. I'm talking the historical context of WWII and the rebuilding of America post war. Yes there was a racial component in that they were black, but thats not the most important thing. I hope you didn't just go there.

  6. #55

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    quote=henryrobinett;243435

    Yes, but you were saying that Charlie Parker wasn't saying anything. If you're going to make a statement like that you should know what you're talking about and trying to understand the music, or don't say anything.
    What then, pray tell . . . was bird actually saying? Also, what is it that might make you better at interpreting bird's "messages" in his playing than we lesser jazz fans? What are the qualifying criteria?

    I'm at a loss. Because, other than his technical mastery, beautiful, melodic well placed lines, wonderful use of intervalic phrasing, and being an absolute master of harmonic blowing in B flat . . . . I too can't hear a damn thing. The man was a master. But, I don't think he was trying to do anything except make great bop jazz music. But, now you have me wondering if I actually have the necessary qualifications to truly understand what bop is. I'm wondering whom else I might not be hearing or understanding.

    Apologies for the tone of sarcasm in the above content. I really don't wish to pick a quarrel with you. I'm just wondering what exactly is at the root of some of your posts.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    In what way? What exactly are you saying? I'm not talking about racism here. I'm talking the historical context of WWII and the rebuilding of America post war. Yes there was a racial component in that they were black, but thats not the most important thing. I hope you didn't just go there.
    What the hell does the rebuilding of America post WWII have to do with the creation of be bop??

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by markerhodes
    But I will say this, I think it entirely possible that a Jewish musician born in Russia during the Soviet empire could "get" Bird in a way none of his neighbors from Kansas City ever did.
    Having spent a year traveling Russia and Ukraine post USSR, clearly the two cultures of that era shared a common bond. Oppression.

    A question could easily be asked of jazz, or bebop, essentially what direction would jazz have taken were it not for the anger of black oppression.

    What I'm referring to is the identical anger and social movement that shaped the music of the 60's. Cultural separation is experienced and documented in artistry. Beethoven's 'Wellington's Victory' is another such historical example of an artist creating, or telling, a musical story in response to the realities of the day.

    An honest examination of black life in the 30's-40's will reveal black professional players by and large did not experience the same professional freedoms and playing options as their non black counterparts.

    To remove that racial component of jazz from the players in those times would be impossible, for that's the reality of what they lived.

    Personally, I believe one could honestly draw a line between that anger and the creation of 'bop. Read Gillespie's '2BORNOT2BOP' (actually titled 'to be or not to bop', aka another in a long line of Diz' Shakeperisms) for starters, to gain insights on one bop creators perspective.

    Having met Pop's (Diz) personally in a '91 visit to a Seattle Goddaughter, a coworker of mine, and shared bread with him, had I to do it over again I'd have posed many pertinent questions of him. But when one is first in the presence of greatness, they've no such agenda for they're lost in the humility of the moment for having the privilege of being there in that moment.
    Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 07-24-2012 at 05:01 PM.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    What the hell does the rebuilding of America post WWII have to do with the creation of be bop??
    Clearly brotha, that's like asking what does tomato sauce have to do with creating a great spaghetti.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Clearly brotha, that's like asking what does tomato sauce have to do with creating a great spaghetti.
    In some cases, tomato sauce has nothing to do with it. (And I know that doesn't necessarily answer the question. Anyone who would like some recipes can PM me.)

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Clearly brotha, that's like asking what does tomato sauce have to do with creating a great spaghetti.
    Well . . . first off . . . tomato sauce ain't got a damn thing to do with creating spaghetti.

    But, if you're tying the explosion a jazz, places like Bop City to the end of WWII. Then, I see it as more of a coincidental time period than as a result of the war ending. There was a real shift in what people did and where thay lived during that time. But, that shift probably would have occured either way.