The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: Do you play as a job or as a hobby?

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419. You may not vote on this poll
  • Career

    61 14.56%
  • Hobby

    215 51.31%
  • I get paid occasionally/not full time musician

    143 34.13%
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  1. #151

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    It's a hobby. When I was about 16 to17 my job was kind of an apprenticeship in all but name which meant I wasn't making much money. I played some restaurant and covers gigs for a while and that money was quite good. But eventually my day job started to pay well enough and I stopped gigging. Since then it's been a hobby, and a fun, interesting and even fulfilling one.

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  3. #152

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    I'm a Problyist. I was a pro and now I'm a hobbyist. It's really not as sad as it sounds.

  4. #153

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    Yeah? Well I’m a ho.

  5. #154

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    Pro Musician for 45years, unfortunately,lol!

  6. #155
    I would object to someone telling me playing jazz music is a hobby. It's not my day job and to-date i've earned a total of $12 from playing jazz (the restaurant owner felt bad for me and stuffed my tip jar at a solo gig.) So I'm certainly not a professional.
    But it takes so much more dedication and commitment to execution than a mere hobby, a term that implies a low bar to entry to the endeavor and a more or less easily attainable skill set. There are exceptions, of course, and one could take any hobby to the Nth level in terms of money, time and effort spent.
    But my goal isn't to entertain myself or provide a distraction from daily life. My goal is to "speak" to others the music that speaks to me in very spiritual and moving way. Personally, it's closer to a monk's meditation, study and search for transcendence.* Would you call that a hobby?

    *Certainly in terms of pay!

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBrooklyn
    I would object to someone telling me playing jazz music is a hobby. It's not my day job and to-date i've earned a total of $12 from playing jazz (the restaurant owner felt bad for me and stuffed my tip jar at a solo gig.) So I'm certainly not a professional.
    But it takes so much more dedication and commitment to execution than a mere hobby, a term that implies a low bar to entry to the endeavor and a more or less easily attainable skill set. There are exceptions, of course, and one could take any hobby to the Nth level in terms of money, time and effort spent.
    But my goal isn't to entertain myself or provide a distraction from daily life. My goal is to "speak" to others the music that speaks to me in very spiritual and moving way. Personally, it's closer to a monk's meditation, study and search for transcendence.* Would you call that a hobby?

    *Certainly in terms of pay!
    If your two choices are job or hobby... Yes, I'd call that a hobby. When you do something not for money but for pleasure, that's a hobby, right?

    Amature is probably a better word. The root of that word "for the love of". And remember when olympic athletes had to be amateurs, extremely skilled amateurs.

  8. #157

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    Now that the pros aren't working much either, I guess I've attained pro status.

  9. #158

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    Music is a friggin difficult profession. Hats off to you guys who do it as your career. My goal is just to be able to play and record jazz guitar at a standard that I'm happy with.

  10. #159

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    A jazz guitar connoisseur..

    Quote Originally Posted by Kojo27
    I think that "Professional" or "Hobbyist" - which are you? leaves some players out - it gives them no category - no pigeon hole.

    My dictionary calls a "hobby" a sideline, a pastime, and a spare-time activity. And it seems we've defined "pro" as a player who earns a living by playing.

    There's another kind of player, to which JonnyPac alluded. There's the passionate, eternal student and practitioner of the art. I'd say this category would include many, many of us. It's certainly more than a "hobby" - calling it this puts it on a level with stamp collecting, seems to me (nothing necessarily wrong with stamp collecting - be passionate about that, too!)

    And we all know players of amazing talent, who never perform, for whatever reasons. Playing guitar, for me, is much more than a pastime; yet I've never felt any desire to perform. There are many like me: where do we fit? Passionate student of the art? If you don't aspire to perform, yet you go to sleep thinking about guitar, and you wake up thinking about it - and you even dream about it - mustn't there be a category for you other than "hobbyist?"

    kj
    Last edited by Nick71; 02-17-2021 at 11:54 AM.

  11. #160

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    By now, how many wish to change their vote...?

    Ain't just being a Musician, enough?
    All I want is to be a good musician, or at least be able to honestly refer to myself as a being a good musician. Join a musical society, club or association of musicians and not be embarrassed. Frustrated people often have difficulty in just being themselves. They have to have a title.

    But doesn't it usually sort itself out? People won't play with you if you're bad. You won't get the call. You will realise this yourself a few minutes into the session. You'll go home and practice till you get good enough. You get hired or fired regardless of what you call yourself.

    1. A professional musician must be capable of earning their living in one of the following careers: performer, composer, conductor, arranger, teacher. There are only five categories, because you have to be a musician to be one of them.

    Your annual income must be sufficient to pay 100% of your basic living bills, whatever that may be. If it does not, then you are a fool to draw attention to yourself by calling yourself a professional. A self-titled "professional musician" on welfare is not a professional musician. Earning only enough money to cover working expenses does not count. Being homeless discounts your claim to being a professional.

    Even being extremely competent and talented does not make anyone a professional unless the above stipulations are satisfied. I would go as far as to say that anyone who cannot get married, raise a small family or display moderate financial stability is a fool acting as a "professional". Get a real job!

    Passing out business cards does not guarantee your status as a "pro". Re-mortgaging your mother's house to attend Music College does not make you a professional, whether you are a student or a graduate. Posting videos of yourself on your monetised You Tube channel does justify the use of "professional musician". Today, making a record means that some guy with a computer recorded you and you bought a few boxes of CD's to hock at your gigs or on-line. This could make you a businessman, but it doesn't guarantee the professional moniker, or even whether you're good...

    2. If you must also work another job to pay the bills, then you may be considered to be a Part-Time Professional. Again, avoid this term as it is a red flashing light pointing to your incompetence or lack of judgement in career choice.

    3. If you are a retired professional musician, then you are no longer professional. You are retired. You were once a professional musician, but no longer.

    4. A "student" or "graduate musician" must have attended or graduated from a recognised educational institution that issues a diploma or degree. You must specify yourself as full-time or part-time student. A private teacher cannot issue you a valid diploma or degree. The best they can do is prepare you to attend a recognised institution. Most music teachers advertising on bulletin boards are really just instructors, or proctors. Internetz lessons do not give you student status. Realise what you are paying for.

    5. If 1, 2, 3 or 4 do not apply, then you are an amateur musician. A hobbyist. An enthusiast. Amateur golfer, bowler,... Compare to professional golfer... We're all allowed to dream, like the Sanitation Engineer. But to be true to oneself takes guts.

    Amateurs can be described as self-taught or tutored by a private teacher. You may have a passion for music and it is your number one pass-time, but the only title you can claim is amateur musician. How to differentiate the many degrees of Amateur? Simple adjectives suffice: Exceptional, Superb, Good, Bad...

    6. Semi-professional does not exist. I refuse to see a semi-professional dentist, and so should you. Same goes for semi-pro brain surgeons. Even if they advertise on Craigslist!

    7. Occupation or Profession?
    Occupation refers to the regular activity performed by a person to earn their living: cab driver, government clerk, car mechanic...

    A profession is a subset of the term occupation (or vocation) requiring a high degree of knowledge and expertise in the specific field: dentist, lawyer, doctor, professor...

    Remember! One must be licensed to be a professional. So, a musician who calls themselves a professional is blowing out of his hat.

    You may believe that you play "like a professional", but you ain't unless you are... Some people get "professional attitude" confused with "profession". Conforming to the standards of a profession, or professional behavior, is a compliment, not a title.

    And again, if you can't support yourself, don't draw attention to it by claiming that you are a professional. No professional lives in poverty. That would be mental illness.

    I once seen a guitarist near our home when I was a kid. I still remember his figure slowly turning up the side-street as he left the tavern. His creased-up old overcoat and large hat. His guitar case was deteriorating. He had it tied up with twine to keep it together. I later found that he was a renowned jazz guitarist in the city. It startled me as a kid. I think that's why I made sure I had a good day job and kept music as a hobby.

    Vocation or Calling?
    If you dedicate your life to music but can't make a living at it, does it become a vocation? Priests, nuns and missionaries have a vocation. Is playing guitar a vocation? That probably fails in comparison to the religious life. Maybe a calling. A calling to be a guitar player? That fails, too.

    Opinion: Most musicians are pretentious. Especially guitarists. Financially successful or not, it's like the excited flea floating down the canal on its back, shouting, "Raise the bridge! Raise the bridge!"

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by StringNavigator
    One must be licensed to be a professional. So, a musician who calls themselves a professional is blowing out of his hat...

    And again, if you can't support yourself, don't draw attention to it by claiming that you are a professional. No professional lives in poverty. That would be mental illness.
    Re: the first point- there used to be a professional license for musicians in New York City during jazz's heyday: a union card. Without it, no work or at least not enough to keep a roof over your head.

    Re: the second point- Pat Metheny pointed out in his recent interview with John Pizzarelli that there is a fine line between musical accomplishment and mental illness. Many of our jazz heroes lived on both sides of that line simultaneously. If you can make a living at it, you're less likely to be seen as mentally ill.

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Re: the first point- there used to be a professional license for musicians in New York City during jazz's heyday: a union card. Without it, no work or at least not enough to keep a roof over your head.

    Re: the second point- Pat Metheny pointed out in his recent interview with John Pizzarelli that there is a fine line between musical accomplishment and mental illness. Many of our jazz heroes lived on both sides of that line simultaneously. If you can make a living at it, you're less likely to be seen as mentally ill.
    The Professional License I wrote of was the type that allows a surgeon, doctor, dentist, engineer, lawyer, etc, to practice in your state. They hang it up on their office wall. It reflects their education, internship and passing of the state exam. It reflects their mental health, criminal record status and professional conduct. I wouldn't compare it to an identification card carried by a member of the Local Musician's Union to prevent out of state musicians from "cutting" into their turf. If it was ever called a license, that was in a different sense/meaning of the word "license". Perhaps like in the UK, the US has different terminology for the same thing. Actually, my experience in the US is that every state calls things by different names! A corner store also has a "license"... Even a bicycle is supposed to have a license, but it doesn't approach the seriousness of a driver's license. And beyond that, I went through hell to get my semi truck license. There's different degrees to everything.

    I know what a union card is. I was a card carrying member of the Musician's Union in Montreal back in 1973. It cost $100. I dropped it after a year as I only garnered one gig by it at an office party backing up an organist. But, the previous year, before joining, I had backed up John Lee Hooker (on bass guitar) for two shows on a double bill with BB King. $100. Scale was only $40. They never asked for any union card, or license for that matter. But I thought I should get one anyway. However, nobody cared...

    BTW, in Canada foreign musicians can play without paying a fee, but NYC AFM won't reciprocate. And it's the same union! Mob rules...

    As for Pat Metheny, he's far from homeless... And, of course, he is indeed a professional musician on all counts. And he's nowhere near any mental issues. Obviously a super-intelligent individual, yet he always appears outgoing, happy and able to capture his audience. His profile doesn't match your theory. I would think that as many creative people become famous, their flaws can be easily read by the paparazzi, whereas yours and mine simply fall under the radar.
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 05-02-2021 at 07:57 PM.

  14. #163

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    Cunamara is spot on, I guess through the 70’s into the 80’s the AFM (American Federation of Musicians) pretty much owned whether you were pro or not. Playing out with no card (especially the north Jersey/NYC/PHL area could literally get you in a world of hurt. When (not if ) the rep stopped by, and you weren’t on the list in your local, the rep could shut you down on the spot and have a picket line at the venue ASAP.
    What extortionists. Even Tal when playing in NYC had to pay ‘Traveling Dues’ to 802 (the famous NY local). He refused: they didn’t have the guts to go after him! Me, well No question I did pay lol (from 602 New Brunswick NJ)
    I went to look not long ago on their site to see what locals were still around. In Central NJ we had 3-4 theyre gone now.
    They gave us pens around 68-69 to pass out that said “Stamp Out Silent Sidemen” cause the first drum machines were coming out. Geez did they stink.
    FWIW my first local was in Cumberland MD, 787, both clarinet and guitar, in 10th grade.
    As the Russian folk song goes.... “Those were the days my friend”

  15. #164
    In Pro towns like LA and Nashville you have to be Union in my day to get paid for sessions and Radio and TV work. In Nashville when I lived there the bars and clubs were mostly play for the door at least with original music and the local union didnt care for it,but how else could a newcomer get exposure? Even Brent Mason had to start out playing 6 hours a night 6 days a week in a bar to get noticed. In KC.MO the union picketed a local riverboat dinner and dancing biz because they treated the musicians like crew and had them help clean up the boat after the shows were over,but I thought it was better than no work. The union seems good for the upper level players who do a lot of record dates,TV and Movies. With pension plans and such,but for the barely scrape by jazzbo, the union often seems oppressive. Songwriters too untill they make it big but thats more ASCAP and BMI and SESAC.

  16. #165
    I once played a country music festival in Chicago with Charlie Rich and a year later got a royalty check from NBC for a RADIO LUXEMBOURG broadcast of that performance. The union is about the only way you are going to get your MAILBOX MONEY so they are good for that!!! The check was about 110$ and let me know that many people in Europe had heard my playing which was NICE!!!

  17. #166
    I will tell you who is an ENEMY OF LIVE MUSIC is and thats BMI and ASCAP wanting small local coffee shops to pay 5000$ for permits to play songs by their writers. The owners of many of these small venues would like to have live music but just cant AFFORD IT!!!!

  18. #167
    Maye somebody with DESIRE and WHERWITHAL can ORGANIZE a PETITION to BMI and ASCAP to MUCH LOWER their fees because they are hurting future songwriters and backing musicians who learn their CRAFT in small venues all over the world.

  19. #168

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    Hobbyist. One perspective:

    Being a pro sounds stressful. I'd rather have a traditional career I like while playing the music I want as a hobby. Unless you are the top 0.1% of musicians(and everyone else knows it too) it sounds like a trap. Especially in this day and age where a listener can listen to the best music ever recorded on demand. If you can't compete with that then why bother.

    I like not having to perpetually impress an audience. I like having the freedom to play whatever is inspiring me at the moment. I like putting my guitar down for a month if I'm not feeling anything. This keeps music fun me. If you decide to make music a career you better know what you're doing.

  20. #169
    IF I had it to do over I would have had something solid to fall back on. But the business was much different when I started. Lots of steady house gigs and solid teaching positions. I know a few whose dreams came true but for most its a hard road depending entirely on music for a living. I started a graduate level program in clinical Psychology but wasnt quite able to finish it due to my own sickness.Part of it included a clinical internship at the Tenn. State Prison for women. I was very grateful everytime I left for the day! Some were locked up for growing plants that grow natural to the Earth. Music therapy is an interesting field in psychology and my fave area of it. Statistics are useful for knowing certain truths. When a person choses to be of service to others and is happy and healthy seems like seems to me to be a very good way to go whatever field of life. Personally I think food production and health care rank at about the top for me.

  21. #170

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    once I made a choice and moved into hobbyist area - though my general occupation is still artistic.

    Sometimes I felt sorry about it... mostly i was appreciated by pro artists I recpected. When I instriduce myself I often say that 'I am just an anateur' and I often heard after playing together that 'Well that you are an amateur is just your own choice'. I know I hav esome skills and also some musical identity - without overstinmating myself of course.

    Some years ago I gave it a try - there was a few occasions first in early music then in jazz - to get into a pro acticity at least half-time.
    I was pretty much disappointed.
    Most pro musicians I met had to play anything anywhere to earn money.
    They are not at the level where they can afford playing what they want. Stick to one or two programs, run it for 6 months together and then make a CD and so on.
    they play medieval (real medieval not foly fake stuff) today, country tomorrow, then baroque, then jazz... and they complain that they fall out of it all. How would not you? Those things require dedication, deep involvement, time. You cannot write a serious work about Rembrandt in the morning and elaborate anew attraction activity in Disneyland in the evening with equal dedication and succecc.

    This position is probably good when you are twenty to get some kind of stage real-time drill... but when you are stuck into that over 40 it becomes actually often a bit sick.
    I hav ea good daytiem job and often feel embarassed when I realize that I can oreder anything at the place where we play without second thought and they seriously consider every coffee on the house. though I try to hide it it still shows here and there.

    Another point is criticism. I am not critic but I treat music as art and it hurts me when I see hypocrisy there in reception in social acticity. I am not agressive but I usually show people my criticism, I think it is correct, I like the times when someone from the audience or band culd openly through away a lousy player or when in baroque times they could boo him...
    today everyone is tolerant or ignorant...
    Musicans do not criticize each other because the community is small and they may loose job in the future.
    I do not depend on it.. and this also puts me a bit aside socially.

    by way independence probably is the most saignificant factor that makes people turn away from you - not only financial independence but also in idiology, artistry, wahever... when you behave independently on general views or situation you make people feel uncofortable, you ruin in some sense the cultural reality they build for themselves.
    And my problem I do not do it deliberately - I am not agressive - quite the opposite... but they still feel it.
    they wat relaxation and I am probably too serious baot some things in art... that creates tension they would like to avoid. So they turn away.


    They do not have time to elaborate anything well enough - and play the same program over and over as badly as it was the first time. They stress how important it is to make everything quickly (though they complain that they cannot really enjoy doing it deeply becaus it takes time). They often substitute social concert acticity with music - i.d. enjoy audience and society and ignore that they played like sh..t tonight (audience today often is tolerant or ignorant so they clap anyway).
    I felt that I was tired of that quickly and especially with being pushed into mentality of 'play every gig you are offered' (in any genre or style - 'why" I am not kid, I clearly know what i want to play'), if you stay home and play for yourself it is not real musical deveopments - ('again why? Stage artistry and musicality are not teh same thing -( actually I think it is quite the opposite often. Music starts and ends exactly at home... you hav eto be able to deal with it alone).

    Last but not least.. I am not overestimating my skills but I met enough players who could barely play incomparison to myself.. and still they kept playing and formally being pro.

    To me today - pro or amateur is the last thing I would ask - the only problem I have with amateurs I meet I should admit - not many of them have the level I have... again do not take me wrong I understand my weak points...


    I actually I do not consider music a hobby... how would I? I am a music.
    rather my daytime job is a hobby I get paid for.

  22. #171

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    Did I say this before??? . . . A pro only plays for money. Period.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  23. #172

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    I remember the title page of Benedetto Marcello flute sonatas

    'Il nobile Veneto, dilettante di contrapunto'.)))

    Dilittelare... he is doing that for the pleasure not for the money.

    Amateur... also comes from 'amare' - love... doing something for love

    I believe up to 20th century this was the only difference between amateurs and pros..
    Considering also that the level of amateurs could be very high (Albinoni, Marcello.... formally speaking Ives and Morton Feldman were amateurs too... by the way in literature being a pro writer can be even negative characteristic: Kafka, Proust never really earned anything serious with literature, Musil, Faulkner, Melville had some breakthrough moments and attempts to get stable in career but in general they had to find other sources for living...

    Should we mention poets in 20th century? Only early 20th was a sort of outbreak for poetry that made some pots in some countries almost a pop stars.
    But later ...what would have Joseph Brodsky or W.H.Auden or Derek Walcott earned from direct sales of their poetry?

    Somehow in music professionalism is associated with practice (and partly it is true).

    But I think it is great for musicians to relate themselves to some 'Kafka': ''ok now you graduated from all the institutions and had many concerts... so you are now ready as probably Kafka was aroud 18 - 19.. sowhat would you like tell with your very professional art?'

  24. #173

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    - If you are retired, you are still what you retired from. A retired blacksmith is still a blacksmith. The knowledge does not fly from your head when you no longer need to deliver goods and services to pay your bills. Nor does retirement change how you see yourself.

    - I consider 'pro' versus 'amateur' to be levels defined by overall competence. I'm not sure the job title of professional jazz musician still exists if the bar is a viable income derived from composition, recording, and performance. Not in the US without social subsidies anyway. Maybe it's different in other countries.

  25. #174

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    I’d like to throw out the idea that professionalism has more going than just flat out musical ability. To me it’s an overall attitude towards your work and those around you. I think it’s fair to use my professional photography (full time, no other job) experience to comment on the grey line twixt the “semi pro” and hobbyist. When I hired added staff for larger events I expected them: to be bringing pro quality equipment that could handle anything on that job, be on time, be courteous to the clients, represent my company not themselves, not need technical support while working, know what to do when things went to the sewer, did what I wanted and asked for, not what they considered their personal artistic needs...I suppose you have the idea. Note none of that has to do with the picture they made (music they played). That was taken for granted. Nothing more than what my client expected from me.
    Those in sum are not learned by a hobbyist, it’s practice that teaches.
    I hired ‘card carrying’ professionals that could not meet those criteria.
    And I hired ‘semi pros’ (had a day job) that blew the doors off a lot of full time pros.
    So Yea to me a jazz player with good equipment, timely to gigs, courtesy, adaptability to any band mates, knows how to place a tip jar), knows his /her worth (none of that ‘so happy to play I’ll pay you mr bar owner’), not need hand holding when calling Misty in Ab for a weird singer, and knowing how to improvise out of a hole you find yourself in,
    If a cat with a day job not in music can pull that off they deserve to be considered acting as a professional if not in fact a professional. A part time or semi pro.
    There was a young guy playing wineries who played chord/melody (sorta))) with his face literally in the fake book, never making contact with the audience, you get the picture. He was a full time pro. Not in my book)

  26. #175

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    I consider 'pro' versus 'amateur' to be levels defined by overall competence.
    And this is how it is often used now.

    'Professionalism' means today competence in some profession.

    Saying 'I am an amateur' sounds as if I try to ask for excuse in advance. But in most cases it turned out that there was nothing to apologize for.

    'Playing on professional level' I heard that said about good amateur players.

    But the problem is there is still also formal 'pro' definition.
    Just the one who works and earns money with that but his musical competence level can be surprisingly low sometimes.

    By the way many early music movement stars came out of amateur environment.

    Some jazz artists too... Wes originally was an amateur .. at least by his approach in general.