Joining the Musician's Union

[gravitas]

Thinking of joining the musician's union... I was hoping that maybe some of the more experienced players here could give me some advice. Do you think joining the union is worth it or not worth it?

[hot ford coupe]

Depending on where you play will help you make your decision. You also need to know which clubs, hotels, catering halls or wherever you play are strictly union halls or not. I was a member of Local 802 in NYC. The thing was that if you wanted to play in certain places like catering halls other venues like bungalow colonies and hotels, you couldn't play unless you were in the union. Our union delegates would come to the gigs to check your contract as well as check your union cards for paid up dues and expired cards. If there were any irregularities, the waiters could walk out, the cooks and chefs could walk out and the maintenance guys could walk out, or so I was told. You could play in non union halls with non union musicians but they couldn't play where you could play. If you did studio work, worked in the Broadway theater pits, worked on live TV shows, you also had to be union. Those guys really had some bargaining power. Us wedding guys couldn't do squat.

[mtierney]

This is interesting, do you know what the disadvantages of joining the union would be?

Thanks

[fep]

This is interesting, do you know what the disadvantages of joining the union would be?

Thanks

Dues and having to follow the union rules. These will depend on your particular union.

The musicians that I know that work a lot and are most in demand in San Diego do not belong to the union. That's a pretty small sample size though.

[hot ford coupe]

Dues and having to follow the union rules. These will depend on your particular union.

That's basically it. The union did protect some players like it should have when it came to scale and such but for the thousands of guys who were weekend players doing weddings and some clubs, it was more of a pain in the neck. When the players in the pits on Broadway and on the live TV shows went on strike, we couldn't work. Fortunately, the strikes usually didn't take too long and we were back gigging but nothing for us really changed.

[paynow]

This is interesting, do you know what the disadvantages of joining the union would be?

Thanks

I'll back up what HFC says; my Dad was NYC/802 for many, many years. You're in Canada; there may be differences there.

When I first started playing out you would publicize gigs in the local paper's weekend events sections as at that time the internet didn't really exist; they would usually do this for free. I worked for a piano player who always got his restaurant gigs listed in this manner. My Dad and I share the same first name. The union (802) actually called our house one night to inform him that if he worked the job he would be fined. I had to get on the phone and explain it was me. I found it hilarious, since he wasn't even a guitar player. So, they had some cat scouting the papers for gigs out in Westchester. I have to give them credit for being thorough.

I don't live in NY currently so I'm not 802 but I never was. I am, however, a union actor, a member of SAG and Actors Equity. I mention this because while I'm proud to be, there is a lot of work I can no longer do. Of course when I do work I have a great deal more protection and I get more money and I never have to chase after my bread like I did when I wasn't in the union. You need to see what the union prevents you from doing once you join and what THEY DO FOR YOU once you do join. Very important. Do they get your money if someone stiffs you? I would say in NYC and surrounding area you need it for what HFC said but not to play jazz in restaurants. You want to work the pit at a b'way show, or any show under a contract with Actors Equity? Yeah, you have to have it. I know Canada has their own actors union and I can reasonably guarantee that there is deal in place with the musician's union.

The thing was that if you wanted to play in certain places like catering halls other venues like bungalow colonies and hotels, you couldn't play unless you were in the union.

HFC, by "bungalow colonies" do you mean the Catskills and places like Kutscher's, Browns, etc? I don't think that stuff really exists anymore in that area. My Dad did a lot of that type of work; I remember going with him in the late 70s when he was hired to back up Trini Lopez on that whole circuit, including Monticello Raceway, for about a week. Talk about a "no jazz" gig. Taught me a lot about the business because you had to be a pro, accept the cheesiness and be able to sight read instantaneously with almost no prep.

I was in Monticello a few years ago and all they had was some awful rock cover band and I got really depressed. They ought to revitalize that area.

[gravitas]

So you guys would definitively say that being in the union helped generate more work for you?

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Jimmy Bruno said the union never did anything for him.

[paynow]

You have to get your own work. Unions sometimes hold workshops or seminars to help. What are you looking to do exactly? You don't really say.

[Soon]

I have been a member of Musician's Local 802 since '88. I joined because I play Broadway shows and freelance orchestras and membership is required. I didn't think of going union until I had to. Dues, dues, dues

I agree with paynow, you have to get your own work.

[wolflen]

was a member for just a very short time...but all the studio work and band gigs that i did were all indy type stuff...so i dropped out..

but if you HAVE to join it..depends on the income vs expense factor..

brings up a good question about star acts..do they belong to unions..i just cant picture guns N roses as a union members..

[hot ford coupe]

HFC, by "bungalow colonies" do you mean the Catskills and places like Kutscher's, Browns, etc? I don't think that stuff really exists anymore in that area. My Dad did a lot of that type of work; I remember going with him in the late 70s when he was hired to back up Trini Lopez on that whole circuit, including Monticello Raceway, for about a week. Talk about a "no jazz" gig. Taught me a lot about the business because you had to be a pro, accept the cheesiness and be able to sight read instantaneously with almost no prep.

I was in Monticello a few years ago and all they had was some awful rock cover band and I got really depressed. They ought to revitalize that area.

By bungalow colonies, I definitely refer to the little communities that would go up in the summer. Rather than be in one of the named resorts, you rented a bungalow and pretty much camped out. Every Sat night, we would go up there, play some dance music and then have to play behind some comedian or singer they hired. The performers would come up with a handful of charts, plop them down in front of us and expect us to be like the big show bands. We did a pretty good job of following but the arrangements were to say the least CHEEEEEEEEEZIE beyond belief and the singers thought they were so great. Nobody famous ever came up there but they all thought they were.

I'm sad to hear that the area isn't the same anymore. All the musicians I knew literally cut their teeth in those colonies and the big hotels. If you weren't a waiter, you were a musician. It was a fun time. Oh yeah and yes, every so often, a big guy in a cheap suit with a really heavy Brooklyn accent and a face that looked like something you'd see in Goodfellas came up to check all our union cards. It was all about making sure you paid your dues.

[paynow]

I have been a member of Musician's Local 802 since '88. I joined because I play Broadway shows and freelance orchestras and membership is required. I didn't think of going union until I had to. Dues, dues, dues

I agree with paynow, you have to get your own work.

Yes; the union isn't really going to do anything for you in that regard. To be honest, I've heard that 802 really doesn't do much for anyone. You need to ask about the union in your area; find other musicians there in Ottawa who have experience with it and see how dealing with them is and what they get out of it. I really don't know how the union in Canada differs from the union here.

It's sort of like actors who think they're all of a sudden going to get work because they join the union or get an agent. You still have to pound the pavement and be committed to your career. In some cases, you probably ought to be committed. NO ONE cares about your career more than you do.

By bungalow colonies, I definitely refer to the little communities that would go up in the summer. Rather than be in one of the named resorts, you rented a bungalow and pretty much camped out. Every Sat night, we would go up there, play some dance music and then have to play behind some comedian or singer they hired. The performers would come up with a handful of charts, plop them down in front of us and expect us to be like the big show bands. We did a pretty good job of following but the arrangements were to say the least CHEEEEEEEEEZIE beyond belief and the singers thought they were so great. Nobody famous ever came up there but they all thought they were.

I'm sad to hear that the area isn't the same anymore. All the musicians I knew literally cut their teeth in those colonies and the big hotels. If you weren't a waiter, you were a musician. It was a fun time. Oh yeah and yes, every so often, a big guy in a cheap suit with a really heavy Brooklyn accent and a face that looked like something you'd see in Goodfellas came up to check all our union cards. It was all about making sure you paid your dues.

You're killing me. Funny stuff. As an actor I play a lot of those Brooklyn tough guy types so I can hear it in my head. Sid Caesar was a saxophone player in a band in the Catskills and it's where he started performing in comedy sketches; Mel Brooks was a waiter/tummler at one of the hotels I believe. So, there were some eager young kids who came to the hills from the city, honed their skills, and became famous. My Dad used to talk about all the waiters who would lose their entire summer salaries playing gin rummy and some of the real crap acts he had to work with. He played with some good, name people too, but there was an equal mount of cheese. You have to eat, even if it's cheese. You're a musician? Then you work. Period.

It will never return to it's former glory but I think they can make it much better than what it is.

[Jake Hanlon]

unless you're looking to play Union halls or with Union players OR do a lot of International shit it's not worth it in most cases. I never joined the thing personally and I know a lot of people who have, results are mixed, and tbh most of the word of mouth is that it's just not worth the trouble.

If I was playing in the US a lot or doing a lot of travel I would consider paying in. But I don't really play anywhere out of my local area anymore just because I don't need to and can pick my gigs and say no to whatever I want to, which is a rare luxury for sure.

[Soon]

brings up a good question about star acts..do they belong to unions..i just cant picture guns N roses as a union members..

I recall seeing photos in the union paper of big names like Bon Jovi. Many of those guys belong to the LA, NYC or Memphis locals.

I even remember seeing a listing for people who had checks they hadn't picked up yet. Seem to remember seeing Greg Allman's name on that list.

I would bet cash that Slash is in the union.

The union doesn't help much to get gigs but they try to help in negotiations regarding fees, insurance and pension.

[hot ford coupe]

Hey paynow. Tha's neat that you get to play the Brooklyn tough guys. I grew up with a bunch of them but definitely stayed away from them. I remember that guy that came up to check our cards once. He looked just like the guy that played DeNiro's "assistant" Jelli in Analyze This but with a bad suit. At least I think that's how it was spelled.

True, there were lots of cheesy acts that came up, but at the same time, there were some pretty good ones that came up too and they were a pleasure to work with. We stuck with about 80% of their arrangements but when we didn't follow them exactly, they didn't care and filled in beautifully. We made them sound good and they made us sound good. Those guys were true pros. Some of the others were royal jerks that like to trash the band for their own ego boost. The audiences spotted these clowns right off and never hired them back. They did however hire us back.

[Greg Brouelette]

My grandfather had his own big band for many years and all 3 of his sons, my uncles, are professional musicians. This is the advice they gave me:

"Don't join the musician's union unless you can't get any more work without it."

If you're just casually playing gigs and you're fine with that then don't join. The biggest issue is that once you're in the union you're not allowed to play a non-union venue or play with non-union musicians.

If your full time job is musician and you have to keep turning down gigs because as a non-union player you can't get a job at a particular a venue then you should consider it. But realize that once you're a union musician you casual non-union gigs are over. It's union or nothing.

One of my uncles is a great drummer. He's played in the Ray Charles band and with Johnny Mathis. He's played all over the world with several major artist. When things were tight he took a few non-union gigs before he was black balled. He spent over a decade "paying his dues" by playing a dead end hotel band gig before he was able to get another good union job. No more touring, no more name bands. He had to do penance at this hotel before the union would start allowing him on other gigs again.

My 2nd uncle is also an amazing drummer who worked at Disneyland for over 15 years. It was a great Union gig. He basically had a full time job playing drums with full benefits, overtime pay, and a pension fund. For that kind of gig a union membership is required and he benefited greatly from it.

The 3rd uncle is a Julliard graduate and is an amazing jazz piano player. He plays on other people's albums, does studio work, and plays at various jazz clubs and high end hotels. In his case, being in the union is both required and beneficial. But if you're not working at that level of consistency then joining the union will decrease the amount of work you can get rather than increase it.

Another way to look at it is that by joining the union you're "going pro". You'll be considered for gigs with the best musicians in your area. If you can't cut it then you're not going to be getting those calls.

Musician, comedian, and author George Hrab likes to say that it's easy to succeed in music because the bar is set so low. You just have to show up on time to every single gig. Don't drink or get high while you're working. Be polite. Be efficient, know how to do a sound check, do it quickly and get off the stage. Set up and break down quickly. Be sure to introduce yourself to whoever booked you and be sure to say "Thank you" for the gig when you're done. However, all of this pre-supposes that you have the chops to handle the gig.

If you can do this and you think there's enough Union work for you to keep busy then do it. Otherwise, wait.

[cosmic gumbo]

Each local music market is different, and each union local plays a different role, depending on how strong that market is. In some areas, it is very valuable or essential to belong, while in other areas it has very little advantage, depending on your goals and expectations.

As a whole, the union has a very honorable agenda. Everyone in the organization is a musician, and they want to promote live music as a valuable commodity, and that musicians with professional music skills should earn a living wage, like a plumber, mechanic, bus driver, machinist, etc. They know that the majority of musicians are self employed, and would like to see them suceed as businessmen.

Most union musicians are honest, average, guys like you and me, not some lying elitist thugs. The exception might be in a very competetive market where work used to be very strong, but is on the decline...you have to be able to see throught the survivalist politics, which is understandable. The best thing to do, is to contact the local, go to a meeting and talk to them. They can provide a directory of local members, and you should feel free to call anyone and get firsthand info on what the local's role is in the working scene, and if it will meet your needs. These guys are honest and helpful, and will usually treat you like a brother musician.

I belonged to my local for a few years, and it plugged me into some great paying gigs, but not enough to make it practical to remain a member. However, it was a hugely important experience, as I was able to network with all the best area pro musicians, many who are now close friends. It opened my eyes to the bigger working music scene that existed beyond bars and lounges, that most people don't even know about.

You owe it to yourself to explore this direction fully before making a decision. I don't regret my time in the union, it was a valuable education and networking investment that I wouldn't trade away for anything. I would join again in a heartbeat if I needed, because it would mean the market was getting healthier with more quality work.

[max chill]

It's a fact that you'll never get the guitar chair in a pit doing Cinderella, unless you carry a union card. Don't even think about it.

[Gramps]

I had to join the union when I played (not jazz) on some national comercials in order to get residual checks. It was worth it while the checks kept coming in.

I also joined when I was playing a circuit where it was manditory but I was making enough money to justify it.

In today's live music environment I can't imagin making enough money to justify it.