Conundrum..... jazz guitar prices vs. pay

[paynow]

Hey paynow. I understand where you're coming from.

1. Firstly, let me say that I didn't take this as a cut on doctors. I just used doctors as another example of a highly paid profession.

2. I also believe like you do that spending 80 grand on a guitar is a waste of money. I would never consider it. My D'A cost $17,000 and I had to sell 6 guitars to get it. That's pretty much my limit.

3. As far as Benedettos are concerned, they're fine instruments and are played by many good musicians. I really like mine but it sat in my house unplayed for a year and that isn't good. Great instruments need to be played and not stuck somewhere in a vault or closet. That's the only reason why I'm selling it.

4. I share your opinion that not everyone is suited for medical practice. That's not a dig but it's a fact. It's the same with law, business and whatever. Not everyone is cut out to be the same thing and I'm the first to recognize that. I'm a lousy businessman and I don't at all have the personality it takes to be a lawyer or many other professions for that matter. I don't believe that everyone should be a doctor if they want to have a better paying job. That was used as just an example. Notice that I mentioned a higher education to take the music in a different direction.

Lastly, I know that nobody is blaming me for low salaries in jazz. It's an unfortunate situation that jazz musicians aren't paid well.

No worries Doc. I actually agree with you about people whining when it comes to the music business and its "salaries"; it is what it is and you have to know that going in. For the most part you're not going to be able to afford the high price axe, if you're on a certain level and music is all you do (unless you're willing to save for years and by then you may be dead ).

The interesting thing about Ron Odrich is that he wanted to be a dentist; it wasn't that he couldn't cut it at music and went into something else. In fact, he says in the interview that his father and brother told him he should only pursue music. His drummer is also a doctor. You're right, there are many folks in other fields who are gifted musicians. And I see you are from NYC originally (I was born in NYC and raised in the burbs); Odrich is a major periodontist with an office in the high rent district. I think it's awesome that this man can do both and do them well.

I wish I could; I'd fix my own teeth so I could have a smile like this:

[Banksia]

I think there is a subconscious phenomen which is very common. I always see prices and price relativity in terms of my first paycheck. If something seemed expensive back in 1972 when I worked construction for $80/week, I still think of it as expensive.

USA-made guitars are a perfect example. In 1972, we had tariffs and import quotas because we had a viable Australian guitar industry. The cost of currency conversion back then was absurd. All these things changed in the 80s. I can buy a Strat now in the same price range as Ibanez.

My limit for a guitar is actually quite high, even though I'm on disability pension. I calculate my limit as: if I sold all my existing axes and spent the cash on one nice guitar, I would be around the $6K mark. I've been playing for 40 years so I know that $6K guitar would get played, probably for 20 years. 20 years of pleasure for $6K is really quite reasonable. (less than $6/week)

[Aristotle]

I also believe like you do that spending 80 grand on a guitar is a waste of money...

I like it better when you were posting the quit whining stuff.

80 grand on guitar is not a waste if you sell it in five years for 150.

[Drumbler]

Anyone who takes up jazz with the idea of making big money should have their head examined by a qualified physician who will charge them a fee which will enable said physician to purchase a top end Gibson Hollowbody guitar.

[hot ford coupe]

Hey SSS. You got exactly what I mean.

Another point I thought about. I used to get ticked off myself when I saw how much guys like Scott Chinery and Akira Tsumura accumulated. I said how dare they take all those great guitars out of circulation so I couldn't get one. Then I realized that they were doing the archtop a great service. They were preserving the greatest guitars in history just like a number of violinists and collectors are preserving all of the Strads, Guaneris and Amatis that are revered. Can you imagine what would happen to so many of those instruments if they were extensively gigged? They'd get destroyed like so many guitars I see in pawn shops.

Hey paynow. You've also made some great points. You've got to know what you're getting into when you choose a profession. It's no fun getting big surprises. Just like Ron Odrich, I wanted to be a dentist all along. I always knew that being a jazz musician wouldn't really get me where I wanted to go in life. I was originally a bass player while I was going to school and used the gigs for extra cash until I graduated. I wasn't a periodontist. I was a prosthodontist. I worked closely with the periodontist. After the periodontist got done cleaning up the damage, I did the reconstructions.

Hey Banksia. Your last statement tells the same story as mine. My D'A gets played no less than 16 hours a week and it's total pleasure. When I play it (I play mostly standards from the late 20's to the early 50's) I can see visions of the big bands, the studios, the dancehalls, the great nightclubs and playhouses where my favorite music was played.

Aristotle, you made the strongest point and I stand corrected. I meant to say if I spent $80 balloons on a guitar, my wife would waste me.

Finally Drumbler. You speak the musical truth, man. Thanks for that thought. It's great.

[paynow]

Hey SSS. You got exactly what I mean.
Hey paynow. You've also made some great points. You've got to know what you're getting into when you choose a profession. It's no fun getting big surprises. Just like Ron Odrich, I wanted to be a dentist all along. I always knew that being a jazz musician wouldn't really get me where I wanted to go in life. I was originally a bass player while I was going to school and used the gigs for extra cash until I graduated. I wasn't a periodontist. I was a prosthodontist. I worked closely with the periodontist. After the periodontist got done cleaning up the damage, I did the reconstructions.

Doc, with the teeth I've got I need the dentist, the orthodontist, the periodontist the prosthodontist and a general contractor with a jackhammer.

[hot ford coupe]

Now that we can handle. Let me go down to the city hall, we'll pull a couple of building permits and as soon as we get some building materials we can start.

[paynow]

Now that we can handle. Let me go down to the city hall, we'll pull a couple of building permits and as soon as we get some building materials we can start.

Yeah, but if you want those building permits you're going to have to call my "friend" over in Canarsie first.

[fumblefingers]

They wouldn't know genius from schmenius. When they tink your putting your name on something would make them extra money, they'd be willing to have it tatooed to their...

Huh? Bob Benedetto is a genius. And, the people around him know it.

They can't recognize great players? Let's look at some of their players past and present; Martino, Bruno, Oberg, Pizzarelli, Johnny Smith, Alden, Grapelli, Wayne, and many others.

Further, they don't do signature models as continuing production runs anymore. The only current signature model that i know of is a one-off. But what if they did?

[Aristotle]

Huh? Bob Benedetto is a genius. And, the people around him know it.

They can't recognize great players? Let's look at some of their players past and present; Martino, Bruno, Oberg, Pizzarelli, Johnny Smith, Alden, Grapelli, Wayne, and many others.

I guess you're right. Nobody who posts here is "genius" enough to figure out those guys are good.

Did he ever work for Nike, because someone over there was genius enough to figure out Michael Jordan's name could help sell sneakers.

Aristotle, you made the strongest point and I stand corrected. I meant to say if I spent $80 balloons on a guitar, my wife would waste me.

I hear ya. I used to have a wife like that.

[hot ford coupe]

Yeah, but if you want those building permits you're going to have to call my "friend" over in Canarsie first.

Oh yeah, I know him. He was the one that was helping me get those waste management permits if you know what I mean. And then there's the cement guys and the .............

[paynow]

Oh yeah, I know him. He was the one that was helping me get those waste management permits if you know what I mean. And then there's the cement guys and the .............

Riddle:

How many teamsters does it take to screw in a light bulb?

[Aristotle]

Oh yeah, I know him. He was the one that was helping me get those waste management permits if you know what I mean. And then there's the cement guys and the .............

Don't tell me. They're Sopranos.

[bahama]

Many yrs back I was just getting interested in used vintage acoustic archtop gtrs. One could find a nice L-5, Gretsch, Epiphone or sim, save some $ and buy it eventually. Then collectors got into the game and prices shot up for vintage instruments. It then made it a lot less affordable to get these same gtrs. Made to tougher for us to afford nice axes. Just a point on affordability of jazz gtrs

[fumblefingers]

Many yrs back I was just getting interested in used vintage acoustic archtop gtrs. One could find a nice L-5, Gretsch, Epiphone or sim, save some $ and buy it eventually. Then collectors got into the game and prices shot up for vintage instruments. It then made it a lot less affordable to get these same gtrs. Made to tougher for us to afford nice axes. Just a point on affordability of jazz gtrs

so, everybody else should have waited to buy theirs until you got yours eh?

boo hoo.

[fumblefingers]

I guess you're right. Nobody who posts here is "genius" enough to figure out those guys are good.

Did he ever work for Nike, because someone over there was genius enough to figure out Michael Jordan's name could help sell sneakers.

I hear ya. I used to have a wife like that.

why so angry and cynical?

those players don't have to buy Benedettos you know. further, i can tell you from reading many quotes that most are proud as heck of their guitars, and they love, love, love them.

but lets back up. how well do you know the folks over there?

1. do you own one of their instruments and do you have a beef, or
2. are you just some anti-capitalist, or
3. are you just one more of the "all guitars over my price range are crap and only for rich assholes" crowd?

i'm going with #3.

[hot ford coupe]

so, everybody else should have waited to buy theirs until you got yours eh?

boo hoo.

Whoa, dude! I think you've missed the point here. It's a fact that the prices of the best vintage guitars have been pushed beyond the grasp of the average player, not an opinion. I don't see a complaint here and I don't see sour grapes either. One good thing that has happened is that there are a bunch of clips being put on YouTube where you can at least hear some of the best instruments if you can't own them. That way I can get to hear the great sounds without having to spend the money or agonize over it.

[hot ford coupe]

why so angry and cynical?

those players don't have to buy Benedettos you know. further, i can tell you from reading many quotes that most are proud as heck of their guitars, and they love, love, love them.

but lets back up. how well do you know the folks over there?

1. do you own one of their instruments and do you have a beef, or
2. are you just some anti-capitalist, or
3. are you just one more of the "all guitars over my price range are crap and only for rich assholes" crowd?

i'm going with #3.

Whoa again!! This original thought was not about not recognizing which players are geniuses but which names the companies could use to make the most money on their guitars. That's pure capitalism and that's how it works. A player can be a genius and only be known to a small select group. You can't make money on that. You'd need to use a really popular name that everyone wants to be like in order to get the most demand. If you want to sell Les Paul models, you don't put Carmen Maestren's name on them. He's a great player but not well know to all players.

[Aristotle]

why so angry and cynical?

those players don't have to buy Benedettos you know. further, i can tell you from reading many quotes that most are proud as heck of their guitars, and they love, love, love them.

but lets back up. how well do you know the folks over there?

1. do you own one of their instruments and do you have a beef, or
2. are you just some anti-capitalist, or
3. are you just one more of the "all guitars over my price range are crap and only for rich assholes" crowd?

i'm going with #3.

Why so angry and cynical? BTW, you couldn't be more wrong on all 3. That is, I am more of an asshole capitalist who never had one of their guitars, who sees nothing wrong with another capitalist trying enhance the value of his property by having a celebrity endorse it.

[hot ford coupe]

The most expensive guitar I almost bought was a $150,000 Martin D45 from 1940. I was in Gruhn Guitars and my wife bumped up against it and amost knocked it over. Good thing she had fast hands and I didn't have to buy it. Too bad I didn't have a clean pair of shorts to change into at the time. Fortunately, nobody saw it happen. That was what you call a close call.

[fumblefingers]

Whoa, dude! I think you've missed the point here. It's a fact that the prices of the best vintage guitars have been pushed beyond the grasp of the average player, not an opinion. I don't see a complaint here and I don't see sour grapes either. One good thing that has happened is that there are a bunch of clips being put on YouTube where you can at least hear some of the best instruments if you can't own them. That way I can get to hear the great sounds without having to spend the money or agonize over it.

average players? i think you mean average income. to an earlier point, the people who can afford these are typically average players, very average. because they do something else for a living.

besides. so what? average players number in the millions! vintage Gibsons, Martins, Fenders custom archtops etc don't. there aren't enough to go around.

i maintain, some here are complaining about supply and demand.

whyzat?

[fumblefingers]

Whoa again!! This original thought was not about not recognizing which players are geniuses but which names the companies could use to make the most money on their guitars. That's pure capitalism and that's how it works. A player can be a genius and only be known to a small select group. You can't make money on that. You'd need to use a really popular name that everyone wants to be like in order to get the most demand. If you want to sell Les Paul models, you don't put Carmen Maestren's name on them. He's a great player but not well know to all players.

no. firstly the comment was made by another poster, not you. secondly it was referencing the Benedetto company, not all companies. not Gibson or Fender. Benedetto's signature players have always been jazzers. that means that they are all obscure in the grand scheme of things, even the bigger name jazzers.

they don't have any "really popular" names. (put another way, they don't have Benson.)

[fumblefingers]

Why so angry and cynical? BTW, you couldn't be more wrong on all 3. That is, I am more of an asshole capitalist who never had one of their guitars, who sees nothing wrong with another capitalist trying enhance the value of his property by having a celebrity endorse it.

OK. so why did you say that Bob B. has no capacity to recognize genious?

and why did you say that he would tattoo a big name player's name on his ass? especially in light of the fact that his new company has issued a policy of discontinuing signature guitars.

why the cynical attack?

[Aristotle]

OK. so why did you say that Bob B. has no capacity to recognize genious?

I said nothing about any "Bob." I made a general statement about business. If someone thinks there's a buck to me made, they'll even put Charlie Sheen's name on something, and they won't care if he's a genius or a schmeius.

[hot ford coupe]

no. firstly the comment was made by another poster, not you. secondly it was referencing the Benedetto company, not all companies. not Gibson or Fender. Benedetto's signature players have always been jazzers. that means that they are all obscure in the grand scheme of things, even the bigger name jazzers.

they don't have any "really popular" names. (put another way, they don't have Benson.)

I know it was somebody else. Benedetto was just used as one example and --------- Oh poop. I give up. I need a break. I'm going to my room and play my guitar. I just got a new Chet Baker CD and I need to try it out.