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A real disconnect. Jazz guitarists tend to get paid less than many other genres. Yet jazz guitars..... I'm talking about the big hollow body styles, are the most expensive.
Gibson jazz boxes are crazy expensive. And in my town, Los Angeles. The jazzers get paid shit.
Who is the highest paid living jazz guitarist?
Scofield? He's an Ibanez endorsee. Gets his guitars for free.... right?
Metheny? Ibanez again.
Benson? Ibanez.
Martino? Gibson endorsee... but Gibson's Martino model is discontinued.
Stern? Yamaha.
Tons of lesser known guitarists out there..... not rich! Not even close.
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03-03-2011 12:57 PM
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So you think that the higher end models are actually made for & purchased by working musicians?
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One of my favorite locals bragged about getting this awesome guitar for $500 bucks at a shop. Turns out it was the same Joe Pass Emperor model that I purchased one of earlier that year.
Most good guitarists/musicians that I know spend more time on the music than they do money on the instrument.
~DB
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I don't mind the overblown pricing of Gibsons because I have no plans to buy one. I'm one of those people who believes the music is in your head and your hands, not your axe.
In the meantime, if pitching top-end models at the people who can afford them keeps people like Benedetto in business, then I don't have a problem with it.
I recently posted a piece from my local paper on another guitar site. It was about teachers receiving kickbacks from music stores. It referred to violin students at High School level paying $10K for fiddles and tertiary students paying $20K. I think guitarists get off cheap when you consider the quality and price of mid-range Ibanezes, for example.
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Yeah, I think we've had a thread like this before where we looked at the relative prices of instruments...I mean, have you priced a baby grand piano lately?
My dad has a friend who's daughter plays bassoon in college. 2nd mortgage time! And students aren't making ANY money for their playing--they're paying to learn more!
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That's true. Pianos are really expensive. Bassoons? Low end models cost $8000? Whew! Gibsons are cheap compared to a bassoon.
So I shouldn't be complaining. Ibanez offerings are very reasonable. I own a couple of their Artcore jazz boxes that I am very pleased with.
Benedetto guitars are only bought by stock brokers and lawyers who can't play...... oh well.
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On TheGearPage, someone was showing off his Benedettos. I think he had six in one shot!
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Or people who can REALLY play and they get their own model...I'm still waiting for the folks over at Benedetto to realize my genius. The call's coming, I know it.
Originally Posted by Stratocaster
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OK, so my daughter has Type 1 diabetes - the kind that requires her to check her blood and get multiple shots every day. Originally Posted by Stackabones
So you think that the higher end models are actually made for & purchased by working musicians?
One day I walked into a small guitar shop that is about a block away from Vanderbilt Medical Center. As I walked in the door I was on the phone with my wife talking about my daughter. All the guy at the counter heard as I walked in the door was, "What was her blood count? OK, give her 4 units of Ultralente and 6 units of Humalog and let me know what her counts are like in 2 hours."
So he must have thought I was a doctor from the medical center. I hung up and he asked me what I was looking for. I peered behind the counter and saw an archtop that was going for around $5,000 (which was about $4,900 over my budget at the time). I pointed to it and said, "Can I check that one out?" He handed it to me, but then said, "I've got one in the back that you need to see" and he goes to the back room and brings out some $30,000 archtop. I can't recall what brand it was.
Yep, I think alot of those high end archtops are purchased by guys with bucks who dink around on them in their spare time.Last edited by SwingSwangSwung; 03-04-2011 at 09:33 AM.
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You know it. My AS73 cost $405 with the case and shipping from musicians friend. It's always sounded great. I just did a little tweaking on the intonation yesterday and it sounds even better now. I may add an Artcore that's a bit fatter at some point. Originally Posted by Stratocaster
I would say with a bassoon (or similar types of instruments) that since not as many people play them as compared to a guitar, the price would be more. The manufacturer has to be able to recoup the cost somehow; it's not like 800,000,000 teens are running around shouting "Mom! Buy me a BASSOON for my birthday!". Let's face it, to a large extent guitar is the official instrument of posers. I once asked a teacher what he thought it took to be a great guitarist and he said "Start out on the tuba." Meaning of course that you would enter the game already having actual musicianship instead of just wanting to look "cool".
Pianos, by merit of size, hardware, craftsmanship are of course going to be expensive. However, you can get them for a decent price if you know where to look. I once helped a friend find a great old spinet for $600 from a guy who would buy pianos at auction and fix them up. Included in that was the moving cost.
I'll buy an $8,000 guitar when someone finds me an $8,000 jazz gig. Or any gig that pays $8,000 for that matter.
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Pianos are excellent value at the low to mid range. My mum had a beautiful baby grand - one of the Jap brands- for around $2-3K. Sure it was 20 years ago but I wouldn't have got an ES175 in OZ for less than $2K at the time.
I still think guitars are cheap. I got 10 years out of a $90 pawn shop Strat copy and if I bothered putting a $50 set of tuners on it I'd get another 10 years out of it.
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The instrument industry lives off hobbyists and people who spend more time GASing than playing. Plus big names get instruments free and have to sign agreements that they use them publicly. What to see what big names really play check out impromptu studio photos of them. Also work in a music store and see who the buys what. Pro don't change instruments a lot, they find instruments that feel right to them and live with it.
Now Benedetto does have an Artists program and gives discounts for great players.
But I always wanted a Gibson archtop and prices were too high. But I was patient and when on a tour doing audio I had to go to a little local music store. A great old ES-175 real cheap and I got it. Actually wasn't that fond of it and sold it a couple years later. I still wanted an archtop and couple years later I stumbled on a used GB20 cheap and still have that guitar. So keep your eyes open and you will find what you want at a price you can afford eventually. Till then focus on what you play not what your playing on.
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That has to be the best thing I have read on this board, ever. Originally Posted by paynow
I'll build on your other comments by saying that the guitar market can't really be compared to any other musical instrument market (pianos and violins possibly being the only exceptions).
When I was playing trombone more regularly I really wanted a bass trombone made by Edwards. At $4,800 it was about as much as I could reasonably spend on a functional trombone. I know of several professionals that play on instruments that range in price from $1,000 to $2,000. And they get payed to play in orchestras daily. Used trombones are generally 50% of their retail value. Vintage trombones are almost never worth more than a few hundred dollars with only a few exceptions for historical value. There's one "vintage" trombone on ebay right now listing for $2,000 (a 1934 Conn). I seriously doubt it would go for more than $500 when it eventually sells.
You put a 1934 Gibson something-or-other and it is a different deal. Even in "rough" condition someone is going to pay out the but for it.
Then you get to the people that actually play for pay with guitars and they are much more about quality over price. How many people here would gladly take a $500 Godin 5th Avenue out for a spin? That is the cheapest acoustic archtop currently on the market (that I've seen) and (IMHO) it sounds freakin' good! (P.S.: Someone buy me one!)
~DB
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How about jazz amps? I have to be honest and say I'm not sure what amps the big name jazz guys are using.
I've got some pricey amps I use when playing rock or country gigs. But jazz amps seem to be another story.
For jazz gigs, I take a little early 80s Roland JC-55 I paid $200 for. Since its old, I take a back up amp along - a Line 6 amp that goes for $99. Try one of them out sometime - I forget the model number, but its their cheapest/smallest solid state amp. Plug your archtop in, turn off all the effects, and start twisting the EQ knobs (try Treble = 0, Mids = 10, Bass = 0, and start from there). I was really surprised at the tone I got out of that little Line6.
Last night I played at a club in Nashville. I had 2 amps on stage - a Dr Z Stang Ray head and 2x12 cabinet, and my little Roland JC-55, both of which were mic'd. For the rock & blues stuff I played a Strat or Tele into a massive pedal board and then into the Dr. Z. For the jazz and MoTown stuff I played my archtop straight into the Roland. Overall, while by Dr Z/rock-blues tone was really good, I think my Jazz/Roland tone was better.
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This thread got me thinking about the great sax player Art Themen. Check out his Wikipedia entry ...
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One of my uncles passed on several years ago and in closing down his apartment I came across a Gibson. It had one F hole as opposed to two, which I had never seen before. The strings were old and the electronics were buzzing a bit, so I took it home, cleaned it up, put new strings on and messed with the electronics until I got it sounding OK. Originally Posted by lindydanny
I didn't care for it and wasn't going to keep it, as it was a bit thin sounding. While I don't remember the exact model I was able to get a number off it, did some research on the internet, and discovered it was a student model that was in production around 1960.
I ended up getting $1200 for it, the going rate at that time, which I based on what I saw various vintage shops asking for it and on its condition, which was excellent. I remember thinking "Wow, people who are into Gibsons will buy any model they ever made!" It wasn't even top of the line (OK, I would have kept it had it been).
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As far as I'm concerned, that's a crock and a half. I'm a retired dentist. I own a Benedetto and I can definitely play it. I know my music theory and I can apply it well. I may not be a Barney Kessel, Jim Hall or a Joe Pass but I can hold my own pretty well because I continue to work hard at the guitar to get better. BTW, do you know how many lawyers, doctors, stock brokers and other professionals there are that can play jazz like there's no tomorrow? Loads and they're really good. We work our butts off in schools for a good number of years with no pay while at the same time paying ridiculous school fees to learn our professions to be able to afford some of the things that are important to us. Nobody but nobody has ever handed us anything on a silver platter. I gigged on weekends for 8 years so I could have a few bucks in my pocket after I got done paying for books and supplies. I had to take out big time loans for tuition which I paid worked hard to pay back. I personally got where I am by hard work and long hours with little sleep so I could have something really special to me. Why criticize me because I could afford the heavy price. Who cares anyway if some of those professionals can't play. We're not taking anything away from you. If you want to get paid bigger bucks, go back to school and get a higher education so you can take your music in a better direction. Go talk to the rock guitarists that are making huge money and complain to them that nobody pays jazz musicians. Whose fault is it that jazz guitarists don't get paid much? Not me. Originally Posted by Stratocaster
Another point. I can understand why a D'Angelico, Stromberg, Benedetto or some good archtops cost so much. If you knew how they were made, you'd know why also. Have you seen the prices of a 50's Strat, a 50's Les Paul, a 50's P Bass or an ES-335 lately? Do they have the intrinsic value the great archtops have?
Just for the record, at this time, I am selling my 1987 Benedetto Cremona for no other reason than I'm not playing it enough for something that caliber. I now play a '39 D'Angelico Excel which I can't put down. Why? Because I'm a history nut and I wanted to touch a piece of musical history from the city where I was born. I've read extensively about D'Angelicos and I wanted to reach out and touch the history I'm too young to have experienced myself. That's what's important to me and I'm definitely no poser.
And are there professional guitarists that play some of these expensive instruments? You better believe it. Chuck Wayne, Kenny Burrell, Harold Bradley, Homer and Jethro who were outstanding jazz musicians as well as country musicians, George Benson, Bucky Pizzarrelli, Mundell Lowe, and others that are too numerous to list play some of the most expensive instruments made. Don't knock anyone for being able to afford something high end. They worked for every dollar they made and it's their right to spend it wherever they want. I've had enough of this kind of complaining and bashing. Quit yammering about who deserves and who doesn't deserve what instrument.Last edited by hot ford coupe; 03-05-2011 at 01:24 AM.
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03-05-2011, 01:56 AM #18Baltar Hornbeek Guest
Hey, anyone that can serve relief of the dreaded tooth ache, deserves a full and happy retirement on D'Angelicos, Strombergs and Benedettos. Enjoy them and support your local musicians.
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Thanks for the kind words BH. Fortunate for me, my D'A has an old refinish and a refret. That's what made it more affordable for me.
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There seems to be a widely held belief that a great number of these high-end instruments are purchased by collectors who don't play, the demand of which prices them out of reach for most musicians who would be interested in purchasing them to make music. I wonder to what extent this is true. Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
I don't know if it was really intended as some kind of class warfare statement. For whatever reason, lawyers always seem to be fair game for vilificationin our society.
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After reading this I immediately went to find some info on this man: Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
Ron Odrich (website)
Ron Odrich (CBS This morning segment)
Great player. My Dad was a bassist and Ron worked on his teeth; I think they did some gigs together at some point. A real virtuoso.
With all due respect I don't think the OP was cutting on doctors; he made an offhand crack about lawyers and stockbrokers.
Several points from my perspective:
1. I really don't care who buys what instrument. It's my personal OPINION, however, that spending 80 grand on a guitar is a waste of money even if it's Donald Trump who does it.
2. I agree about Benedetto; I'm not sure why it's in the conversation as they are recognized instruments that many pros use. I've considered one myself. I certainly don't expect anyone to buy it for me.
3. Not everyone has the ability to go out and be a doctor or a dentist. My brain doesn't work that way; I would suck at it. So while I have enormous respect for those who decide to be something other than a musician and are actually good musicians to boot, well, that just isn't me.
And who, might I ask, was blaming you for the fact that jazz guitarists "don't get paid much"?
There's so much subtext in your monologue that at first I thought perhaps David Mamet wrote it for you.Last edited by paynow; 03-05-2011 at 08:27 AM.
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They wouldn't know genius from schmenius. When they tink your putting your name on something would make them extra money, they'd be willing to have it tatooed to their... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Or people who can REALLY play and they get their own model...I'm still waiting for the folks over at Benedetto to realize my genius. The call's coming, I know it.
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Hey paynow. I understand where you're coming from.
1. Firstly, let me say that I didn't take this as a cut on doctors. I just used doctors as another example of a highly paid profession.
2. I also believe like you do that spending 80 grand on a guitar is a waste of money. I would never consider it. My D'A cost $17,000 and I had to sell 6 guitars to get it. That's pretty much my limit.
3. As far as Benedettos are concerned, they're fine instruments and are played by many good musicians. I really like mine but it sat in my house unplayed for a year and that isn't good. Great instruments need to be played and not stuck somewhere in a vault or closet. That's the only reason why I'm selling it.
4. I share your opinion that not everyone is suited for medical practice. That's not a dig but it's a fact. It's the same with law, business and whatever. Not everyone is cut out to be the same thing and I'm the first to recognize that. I'm a lousy businessman and I don't at all have the personality it takes to be a lawyer or many other professions for that matter. I don't believe that everyone should be a doctor if they want to have a better paying job. That was used as just an example. Notice that I mentioned a higher education to take the music in a different direction.
Lastly, I know that nobody is blaming me for low salaries in jazz. It's an unfortunate situation that jazz musicians aren't paid well.
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It's a symbiotic relationship. Ibanez gets good value out of Satriani because he releases regular albums and tours a lot. By contrast, their Andy Timmons model has been discontinued, presumably because Timmons hasn't released an album for years and may not be touring. The irony there is that, technically and creatively, Timmons is a much better player and some of the tones he got from the AT model suggest it was a very good guitar. Originally Posted by Aristotle
It's also interesting how they match the player to the market. Ibanez uses Vai to push a top-end model while Gibson uses Slash to push Epiphones, knowing that Slash fans probably can't afford a top end Lester.
One problem Fender had in this area was that, for years, probably the best-known Strat player was SRV. It's hard to market a $3K SRV model when every Stevie fan knows that his Strat was stock standard from a pawn shop. On top of that, Vaughan's major modification was the upside down tremolo - who would want that? Even worse, the most famous Strat player of all was a leftie who played upside down! No surprise then that there is no Jimi Strat.
Still, there must be value in the celebrity endorsement. I've read that Keith Richards has 5,000 guitars - nearly all given to him in the hope that he would play them onstage or on a video.
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I think the train of thought on this thread is that a lot - perhaps the majority - of high end guitars are purchased by folks who may not be serious players. Sure they play, but have they "paid their dues" in the woodshed and gigging. Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
Obviously that a stereotype and not applicable across the board. There are many exceptions I'm sure. I have a day job as a senior director of networks and telecom for a large healthcare company. This has allowed me to get some good gear. But I've also played thousands of gigs and spent thousands and thousands of hours practicing. I'm sure there are doctors, lawyers, stock brokers and such who have done the same. Whether you flip burgers as your day job or do brain surgery, most jazz guitarists have to make a living doing something besides music. I agree there should be no prejudice just because someone's got a good day job.
I worked with a guy in his early thirties who had made millions selling technology hardware. He liked guitars and could play some decent blues, but wasn't a guy who practiced much at all or who ever gigged. He was buying a LOT of vintage guitars as an investment. On almost a weekly basis I'd see or hear about a new vintage ax or amp he'd acquired. Did I mind? No. Did it bother me? No. Did I think it was cool he could get all the stuff? Yes. Was I drooling over it? Yes. I never saw his collection in a negative light at all. Thought it was cool.
The Gibson L-5 I currently own used to belong to an awesome doctor in town who actually treated my young daughter when she was in intensive care a few years ago. He had a large collection of archtops. I never heard him play, but I heard he was really good. Sadly, he passed away at a young age and a mutual friend was helping his wife sell some of his instruments. The L-5 I got was one of the lower end guitars in his collection.
One thing I do wince at is this. The area I live in has a lot of wealth (I bring the average down, not up ). I teach and its not uncommon for one of my students to come from a very wealthy home. Its also not uncommon for these new students who are just learning their basic chords and how to hold a pick to show up at his 2nd or 3rd lesson with a $2k - $3k guitar.
Again, there are obviously successful professionals who can play circles around us all. But I think the gist of this thread is asking if the MAJORITY of high end instruments are owned by folks that are not serious players.
I don't know how we'll ever really know.
P.S. a guitarist I played in a band with back in the 70s is now head of neurology at a major Hospital in New York. He's a good player - but he still has the same gear he had back when we were starving musicians. He hasn't bought any new guitars since then. Just another example of the difficulty in pigeonholing someone into a behavior.Last edited by SwingSwangSwung; 03-05-2011 at 10:33 AM.
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