The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    following on from the "is it possible to play like a pro" thread ... just wondering if anyone heard of anyone career-changing to (not from!) "professional musician" after a career in something else? The usual route seems to be, started playing early, got good quickly, accidentally fell into playing for a living. I've never met or heard of anyone who consciously decided later in life to pursue music as a career and made it work.

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  3. #2

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    Well a lot of folks, myself included, are what I would call , "Semi Pros." Great musicians who work a day job, but also get a chunk of their income from music. I work a 40 hour job, but I also gig once or twice a week, and teach 12 students a week private lessons. When you put a penicl to the numbers, you see how putting some effort into it you can really generate decent supplemental income.
    If I wanted to only play guitar (I wouldn't because for medical reasons I need the health insurance), I could expand the days that I teach, and I would have time freed up to gig during the week. Maybe even teaching at the community college level.
    I think that at any point it is possible to make a career as a musician. The important thing is to have as many streams of income as possible (IE- Teaching, gigging, recording, etc.) so that if one gig dries up you will still have monies coming in. A little planning going a long way!

  4. #3

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    Yes, there are guys who have done that, but as you say, it is not the typical path. That currently is my plan though, as I near retirement years.

  5. #4
    Baltar Hornbeek Guest
    Grandma Moses, she did it.

  6. #5

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    Hmm, I've never really heard of any people who all of a sudden picked up music in their 30s and went on to become 'pros.' I mean it is relative though. If you consider banging out 3 chord rockers and impressing drunk chicks with distorted journeyesque solos and making a 100 bucks at your local pub, pro, yes I'd say so. Blues, Rock, probably can be done...Jazz Flamenco and Classical are highly technical and demanding forms of music, I would think it would be extremely unlikely to become proficient enough in these styles late in life to be considered professional.

  7. #6

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    Has anyone mentioned Pat Martino? He had some serious brain surgery (a tumor?) after which he didn't even remember that he had been a guitarist! Of course, there might have been some subconscious memory or muscle memory working for him. Still, an amazing story.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Has anyone mentioned Pat Martino? He had some serious brain surgery (a tumor?) after which he didn't even remember that he had been a guitarist! Of course, there might have been some subconscious memory or muscle memory working for him. Still, an amazing story.

    Yeah, I think the Pat Martino story is awesome, but the brain is too mysterious and complex and memory is so fluid. There's no way for it to be known how much he forgot actually, certainly to get to his level of ability, you have to committ a lot of stuff way deeper in your brain than any injury can reach, and leave you alive. The brain is also amazing in it's operations, chances are he had a nueron damaged and in learning again he finally hit a nueron that reconnected him with his stored knowledge. But even so, unless you're a remarkable natural talent I don't see someone really getting great an instrument after the age of 25-30. You can learn it for sure. Not to discourage but we have to be realistic.

  9. #8

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    Don't worry about it. Just play!

    Cut

  10. #9
    Baltar Hornbeek Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by ejwhite09
    But even so, unless you're a remarkable natural talent I don't see someone really getting great an instrument after the age of 25-30. You can learn it for sure. Not to discourage but we have to be realistic.
    No matter what age you start, you've got to have remarkable natural talent to be truly great, no?

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltar Hornbeek
    No matter what age you start, you've got to have remarkable natural talent to be truly great, no?
    Define "truly great." Anyway, this thread is not about becoming someone like Charlie Parker or Wes Montgomery. It's about being able to "turn pro" later in life.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by FatJeff
    Define "truly great." Anyway, this thread is not about becoming someone like Charlie Parker or Wes Montgomery. It's about being able to "turn pro" later in life.
    ... that's right - I'm just intrigued by this because I've never heard of anyone who's done it. I'm very interested in the whole nature vs nurture debate. Sometimes I think those who've "got it" just find their level. Other times I wonder if this is a limiting belief that holds some folks back. Who knows ...

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by ingreen
    I think you decide what you'd like to do, then you do it (at least try to do it). How else would you ever understand your capabilities and limitations?

    Years ago I heard a terrific story, on NPR I think, about a dentist who, after retiring, went on to become a professional jazz saxophonist. Obviously he had played during the years previous to retirement. But still, the guy had a dream and went for it. How ballsy is that!
    Now THAT is a great thing to hear!! I've caught myself thinking over the past few years that I really wouldn't mind it not having to work anymore. :-)

  14. #13

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    Speaking of starting late and Wes, didn't he start playing guitar relatively late and start recording a lot later?

  15. #14

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    I hope this true story will benefit those of you who are concerned about success in music after a late start. It is not a perfect story but it does have a happy ending.
    This is a long story so I will leave out some of the detail. I grew up in Tucson, Az and after learning to play cornet in grade school, I took a few piano lessons from a teacher who taught me to play chords. I then started taking classical guitar lessons for a couple of years. I got a job working in a pawn shop/ music store and spent a lot of time teaching guitar and tuning/playing instruments in the attic (storage area for trade-ins). I wanted desperately to become another Chet Atkins so I took some lessons from the only jazz guitarist in town. He suggested that I listen to some jazz recording and I listened to George Van Eps "Mellow Guitar" and I was completely blown away by his music. I decided to go to college so I could end up with a good engineering job to make more money and maybe buy a good jazz guitar. It took me 8 years (part time/full time/co-op) to graduate with a BSEE. During that time I had met and married my wife and we were blessed with two children. We both loved music and she was "gifted" with a vocal talent so our music stayed with us. After graduation, I took a job and we moved to Los Angeles, California where I had hoped to take some lessons from George Van Eps. It couldn't happen because He had lost his wife and didn't want to have any students. As a result, I ended up taking lessons from several good teachers including Ted Greene. By this time, we had 3 children and I had given up playing guitar except as a hobby. I did a lot of listening and had a good collection of jazz lp's. Howard Roberts came and taught a jazz guitar seminar in North Hollywood. I attended his seminar and was again totally blown away. I started studying technique with Howard shortly after the seminar. About a year later, I designed the first learning modules for G.I.T. and as a result, I got a free ride through G.I.T. in the first class (1977-78). After graduation from G.I.T., my wife and I gigged around Orange County and L.A. for a couple of years. Unfortunately, I contracted Pnuemonia and was totally down for a couple of months and was forced to go back into engineering to make enough money to support my family. needless to say, this ended my attempt to be a professional guitarist. I ended up with a good career in engineering and a great hobby (Studying and listening, NOT playing) jazz guitar. I retired from engineering in 2002 and after fishing, traveling and goofing off in general for a couple of years, I started practising and playing with a few other old coots. My dream of being a pro guitar player was still alive and pushing on me to get back into an active music agenda. My wife was still an excellent singer so we started playing at a local jazz jam session and after a couple of years, we started our own group. I am 73 now and we are now professional musicians! We are not great musicians but with my wife's natural talent and my stubborn dedication, we are doing well with a good following. We have no illusions about becoming rich and famous but we are having a lot of fun and are still learning something musical every time we get on the stage. So in conclusion, NONE of you are too old to become a decent guitar player if you are willing to put in the effort.

    wiz

  16. #15

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    Thanks for that story.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739
    I hope this true story will benefit those of you who are concerned about success in music after a late start. It is not a perfect story but it does have a happy ending.
    This is a long story so I will leave out some of the detail. I grew up in Tucson, Az and after learning to play cornet in grade school, I took a few piano lessons from a teacher who taught me to play chords. I then started taking classical guitar lessons for a couple of years. I got a job working in a pawn shop/ music store and spent a lot of time teaching guitar and tuning/playing instruments in the attic (storage area for trade-ins). I wanted desperately to become another Chet Atkins so I took some lessons from the only jazz guitarist in town. He suggested that I listen to some jazz recording and I listened to George Van Eps "Mellow Guitar" and I was completely blown away by his music. I decided to go to college so I could end up with a good engineering job to make more money and maybe buy a good jazz guitar. It took me 8 years (part time/full time/co-op) to graduate with a BSEE. During that time I had met and married my wife and we were blessed with two children. We both loved music and she was "gifted" with a vocal talent so our music stayed with us. After graduation, I took a job and we moved to Los Angeles, California where I had hoped to take some lessons from George Van Eps. It couldn't happen because He had lost his wife and didn't want to have any students. As a result, I ended up taking lessons from several good teachers including Ted Greene. By this time, we had 3 children and I had given up playing guitar except as a hobby. I did a lot of listening and had a good collection of jazz lp's. Howard Roberts came and taught a jazz guitar seminar in North Hollywood. I attended his seminar and was again totally blown away. I started studying technique with Howard shortly after the seminar. About a year later, I designed the first learning modules for G.I.T. and as a result, I got a free ride through G.I.T. in the first class (1977-78). After graduation from G.I.T., my wife and I gigged around Orange County and L.A. for a couple of years. Unfortunately, I contracted Pnuemonia and was totally down for a couple of months and was forced to go back into engineering to make enough money to support my family. needless to say, this ended my attempt to be a professional guitarist. I ended up with a good career in engineering and a great hobby (Studying and listening, NOT playing) jazz guitar. I retired from engineering in 2002 and after fishing, traveling and goofing off in general for a couple of years, I started practising and playing with a few other old coots. My dream of being a pro guitar player was still alive and pushing on me to get back into an active music agenda. My wife was still an excellent singer so we started playing at a local jazz jam session and after a couple of years, we started our own group. I am 73 now and we are now professional musicians! We are not great musicians but with my wife's natural talent and my stubborn dedication, we are doing well with a good following. We have no illusions about becoming rich and famous but we are having a lot of fun and are still learning something musical every time we get on the stage. So in conclusion, NONE of you are too old to become a decent guitar player if you are willing to put in the effort.

    wiz

  17. #16

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    I loved reading that story Wizard!

    I say: motivation and dedication it is! I am still not certain about what talent realy is, what role it plays and if it even excists and if it's more than just training your brain...... let alone at what age it sprouts.

  18. #17
    Wiz - Thank you for that - it's a great story and there are truly some lessons to learn in there!

    Have you read Barbara Franklin's bio of Ted Greene? I've just finished it. It must have been wonderful to take lessons from Ted.

    Little Jay - a friend of mine once suggested that talent = speed. In other words, we all get there in the end, but at different speeds. I guess we should enjoy the journey ...

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill C
    Little Jay - a friend of mine once suggested that talent = speed. In other words, we all get there in the end, but at different speeds. I guess we should enjoy the journey ...
    I can relate to that! But a critical note to that would be that a person willing to sacrifice a lot (say: chooses to live simple therefore not needing a daytime job, and not starting a family) and put all his time into practising will get there faster then a guy with the same talent, but who has to work for a boss 8 hours a day and can only pick up his instrument when the kids have gone to bed! And that has also to do with motivation and choices or maybe sheer coincidence in what your circumstances are.

    The Dutch well known saxophone player Candy Dulfer once expressed her astonishment about the level of playing of the Dutch politician Hans Dijkstal who also played the saxophone. Although he could not compete with Candy's skills, she was full of admiration that he had managed to reach his level of playing while being a politician, later even being the Minister Of Internall Affairs, having finished a university education, having a wife and kids, while she was devoting almost 100% of her time to being a professional musician. What if this guy had choosen to be musician at an early age?

    And about speed: when I started out learning jazz it took me a week to learn a new tune, while 5 years later - if the tune is not too complicated - I need to hear it only once and can play it after a few tries, so also that can be trained!

    But you are absolutely right about whatever path you choose or follow, you should always enjoy the journey!

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltar Hornbeek
    No matter what age you start, you've got to have remarkable natural talent to be truly great, no?
    In a larger sense, yes. But I think starting at an earlier age, given the lack of time constraints, etc, gives a lot of time to one find that greatness, hone it and focus it. That you simply don't have once you start moving into the 'real world.'

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by bkdavidson
    Speaking of starting late and Wes, didn't he start playing guitar relatively late and start recording a lot later?
    Wes started 'late' at 21! Of course, it cuts my argument a bit, because he already had a wife, kids and a full time job at 21 and then came up home and stayed up til 2 am and practiced, then went to work at 7am, he did this for like 3 years and then started playing out. I seriously see few people, even young people, putting in this much dedication to playing music. I think time is the only boundary to musicianship. If you're willing to sit by a musicmaker 3 or 4 hours a day and play things until you get them, and then once you have an ear base start exploring around(enter theory). You can become a functional musician. Yes, you can become 'professional' meaning you can get paid to play. Bear in mind this will be extremely hard and only gets harder as you age. Primarly from a time/priorities issue to a pure physical issue, it requires dexterity to play and dexterity is a time-decreasing function of the body. Ie it's going to be very hard to make your fingers and hands move as dynamically as musical instruments require, just from a physical standpoint. So it's possible, just set a realistic goal. and achieve it.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739
    I hope this true story will benefit those of you who are concerned about success in music after a late start. It is not a perfect story but it does have a happy ending.
    This is a long story so I will leave out some of the detail. I grew up in Tucson, Az and after learning to play cornet in grade school, I took a few piano lessons from a teacher who taught me to play chords. I then started taking classical guitar lessons for a couple of years. I got a job working in a pawn shop/ music store and spent a lot of time teaching guitar and tuning/playing instruments in the attic (storage area for trade-ins). I wanted desperately to become another Chet Atkins so I took some lessons from the only jazz guitarist in town. He suggested that I listen to some jazz recording and I listened to George Van Eps "Mellow Guitar" and I was completely blown away by his music. I decided to go to college so I could end up with a good engineering job to make more money and maybe buy a good jazz guitar. It took me 8 years (part time/full time/co-op) to graduate with a BSEE. During that time I had met and married my wife and we were blessed with two children. We both loved music and she was "gifted" with a vocal talent so our music stayed with us. After graduation, I took a job and we moved to Los Angeles, California where I had hoped to take some lessons from George Van Eps. It couldn't happen because He had lost his wife and didn't want to have any students. As a result, I ended up taking lessons from several good teachers including Ted Greene. By this time, we had 3 children and I had given up playing guitar except as a hobby. I did a lot of listening and had a good collection of jazz lp's. Howard Roberts came and taught a jazz guitar seminar in North Hollywood. I attended his seminar and was again totally blown away. I started studying technique with Howard shortly after the seminar. About a year later, I designed the first learning modules for G.I.T. and as a result, I got a free ride through G.I.T. in the first class (1977-78). After graduation from G.I.T., my wife and I gigged around Orange County and L.A. for a couple of years. Unfortunately, I contracted Pnuemonia and was totally down for a couple of months and was forced to go back into engineering to make enough money to support my family. needless to say, this ended my attempt to be a professional guitarist. I ended up with a good career in engineering and a great hobby (Studying and listening, NOT playing) jazz guitar. I retired from engineering in 2002 and after fishing, traveling and goofing off in general for a couple of years, I started practising and playing with a few other old coots. My dream of being a pro guitar player was still alive and pushing on me to get back into an active music agenda. My wife was still an excellent singer so we started playing at a local jazz jam session and after a couple of years, we started our own group. I am 73 now and we are now professional musicians! We are not great musicians but with my wife's natural talent and my stubborn dedication, we are doing well with a good following. We have no illusions about becoming rich and famous but we are having a lot of fun and are still learning something musical every time we get on the stage. So in conclusion, NONE of you are too old to become a decent guitar player if you are willing to put in the effort.

    wiz
    I have to say though, I didn't play from the time I was like 11 til I was about 21. But I can't stress enough how important my early musical education was picking the guitar back up. so much was in my head that I didn't even realize for one (the treble clef---surprising could still read it.) so it kind of goes back to age. I have no doubt the fact I was so young when I had a lot of primary musical knowledge given to me, put it so deep in my brain, I had carried it all those years, without actively using it, and when I picked up guitar 10 years later, it was all still there. Then all I had to do was give myself the discipline to technically physically learn the instrument. still very great story.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739
    I hope this true story will benefit those of you who are concerned about success in music after a late start. It is not a perfect story but it does have a happy ending.
    This is a long story so I will leave out some of the detail. I grew up in Tucson, Az and after learning to play cornet in grade school, I took a few piano lessons from a teacher who taught me to play chords. I then started taking classical guitar lessons for a couple of years. I got a job working in a pawn shop/ music store and spent a lot of time teaching guitar and tuning/playing instruments in the attic (storage area for trade-ins). I wanted desperately to become another Chet Atkins so I took some lessons from the only jazz guitarist in town. He suggested that I listen to some jazz recording and I listened to George Van Eps "Mellow Guitar" and I was completely blown away by his music. I decided to go to college so I could end up with a good engineering job to make more money and maybe buy a good jazz guitar. It took me 8 years (part time/full time/co-op) to graduate with a BSEE. During that time I had met and married my wife and we were blessed with two children. We both loved music and she was "gifted" with a vocal talent so our music stayed with us. After graduation, I took a job and we moved to Los Angeles, California where I had hoped to take some lessons from George Van Eps. It couldn't happen because He had lost his wife and didn't want to have any students. As a result, I ended up taking lessons from several good teachers including Ted Greene. By this time, we had 3 children and I had given up playing guitar except as a hobby. I did a lot of listening and had a good collection of jazz lp's. Howard Roberts came and taught a jazz guitar seminar in North Hollywood. I attended his seminar and was again totally blown away. I started studying technique with Howard shortly after the seminar. About a year later, I designed the first learning modules for G.I.T. and as a result, I got a free ride through G.I.T. in the first class (1977-78). After graduation from G.I.T., my wife and I gigged around Orange County and L.A. for a couple of years. Unfortunately, I contracted Pnuemonia and was totally down for a couple of months and was forced to go back into engineering to make enough money to support my family. needless to say, this ended my attempt to be a professional guitarist. I ended up with a good career in engineering and a great hobby (Studying and listening, NOT playing) jazz guitar. I retired from engineering in 2002 and after fishing, traveling and goofing off in general for a couple of years, I started practising and playing with a few other old coots. My dream of being a pro guitar player was still alive and pushing on me to get back into an active music agenda. My wife was still an excellent singer so we started playing at a local jazz jam session and after a couple of years, we started our own group. I am 73 now and we are now professional musicians! We are not great musicians but with my wife's natural talent and my stubborn dedication, we are doing well with a good following. We have no illusions about becoming rich and famous but we are having a lot of fun and are still learning something musical every time we get on the stage. So in conclusion, NONE of you are too old to become a decent guitar player if you are willing to put in the effort.

    wiz
    Jeez, and I thought at 28, having to recover and "re-learn" technique after tearing my rotator a year ago would be too daunting a task. I would be "too old" at 29, the group I was in before the tear disbanded ect. Now I have inspiration! THANKS WIZ!

  24. #23

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    The fact that something has not been done is no reason not do it!! Au contraire!

  25. #24

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    It's easy to turn pro.

    Getting people to pay you to play is the hard part.


  26. #25

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    Age doesn't care about Music, it's not directly related. It's just time spent, you wouldn't be able to enjoy a long career if you started at 45 instead of someone starting at 18.

    In the end the only way to know is to try it. If you play at a professional level and get yourself out there then you can do it at any age regardless of when you started. Coltrane didn't record an album until much later then most people realize.

    The only thing holding you back in the age category is probably commitments in life that you've made or had made for you (family, health, stanima). Negotiate that and you'll be fine.