Moving from bedroom to stage...

[pawlowski6132]

So, if things go as planned, very soon I'll be playing some low key gigs with a couple other guitar player friends. They both have guitars with pickups.

I only have acoustic archtops. What to do.

I know what my options are but, not sure what all the pros and cons are. I understand the obvious ones but, can anyone chime in with their experience and guidance if you've ever been in a similar situation?

I love the sound of my acoustic archtop and prioritize keeping that if possible so, thinking clip on mike (e.g., DPA 4099) but not sure about the rest of signal chain. I don't have a mic pre and would be using a Polytone. Is this really practical?

I'm not crazy about getting a floating pickup. I've had DeArmond's and they sound great but, not the sound I want.

I guess I can buy a guitar with a neck humbucker or single coil or blade but, that's not 'my' guitar.

I would categorize my style as Trad Jazz. My role would be rhythm.

thanx in advance.

[AllanAllen]

This might help.

Rig Rundown 2017 — Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander

If the room/space is small enough you might get away with full acoustic if you're doing straight rhythm

[pawlowski6132]

This might help.

Rig Rundown 2017 — Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander

If the room/space is small enough you might get away with full acoustic if you're doing straight rhythm

Thanx buddy.

[pawlowski6132]

This might help.

Rig Rundown 2017 — Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander

If the room/space is small enough you might get away with full acoustic if you're doing straight rhythm

I didn't notice mention of a preamp for phantom power for the mics. Is that built into the amps??

[AllanAllen]

I read through it, one of the mics has a battery and another runs off phantom from a mic silencer A/B switch he runs.

Go a little further down the page.

[Heybopper]

I would say from experience that for your first few gigs, you will have a lot going on in your head and the last thing you want to be worried about is gear and sound.
You want something that you know will work. You have to figure out how loud you need to be. If it sounded ok in rehearsals then you might be ok but a larger room may need more volume and if there are people in and talking then you might need the option to go louder.
If you have a drummer then you will need an amp.
I saw an English guitarist Dave Cliff many years ago play with a flattop and amp and it sounded great with sax bass and drums. Ive never tried a mic but ive seen plenty of bass players use them but you have to know what your doing and you have to think about what can go wrong ie the mic picking up other instruments or room noise and feedback.
There is nothing worse than trying to play music and enjoy yourself when trying to mute strings and fiddle with controls whilst playing.
perhaps go to the venue and see how big it is. But really you need the right tool for the job. You don't want the gig to be a disaster because of your gear. Rhythm guitar has to be audible and it drives the soloist. They won't like it if they can't hear you or unwanted hum is coming from your guitar.
I know a few gypsy jazz guitarists they seem to play unplugged. I think your biggest concern is going to be volume and feedback. Im sure there are threads on here for feedback and arch tops.
I use a thin line single hum bucker and its lovely not to be worried about those things any more

[pauln]

Something you might try is to use a lapel mic clipped to the guitar. The actual mic is the size of a pencil eraser with a small wire leading off a ways to a thumb drive sized thing with a battery and volume control. Lots of guitarists and violinists find this a nice solution (for about $30).

They look like this...

[Ukena]

The DPA 4099 definitely needs phantom power. Rolls makes a dependable phantom power box, as does ART.

The 4099 is a lovely piece of kit (I have one that I've used on dreadnoughts), but it's expensive (north of $600 now). The AT831 ($230) mentioned in the Jonathan Stout piece is a much better mic than a $30 cavalier, and will sound much better.

[rpjazzguitar]

OP asked for info about people's experiences.

I'd start with this. I've never heard an unamplified guitar loud enough to do any gig I've ever done. What happens when you're playing rhythm guitar and the soloist can't hear you? Not to mention the audience.

So, unless your gig is quieter than any of mine (possible, I imagine), you're stuck with needing some amplification.

One thought that occurs to me is to ask where your guitar sounds the way you like. Presumably, in your own ears while you're playing it.

Seems to me that you aren't going to get that exact sound because it doesn't exist anywhere else. So, your sound is going to either be too quiet or different.

I've heard results I liked from all kinds of different setups. Others have given you more detailed advice than I could.
The usual buying advice is to try something but get a return privilege.

If I understand your goal, I might start with an actual mic on a gooseneck, somehow affixed to the guitar in whatever position sounds best to you.

[SOLR]

FWIW,
Home - DjangoBooks.com has some interesting offerings that seem more efficient.
like the De armond DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 Pickup – Gold GYPSY - DjangoBooks.com

S

[AllanAllen]

OP asked for info about people's experiences.

I'd start with this. I've never heard an unamplified guitar loud enough to do any gig I've ever done. What happens when you're playing rhythm guitar and the soloist can't hear you? Not to mention the audience.

So, unless your gig is quieter than any of mine (possible, I imagine), you're stuck with needing some amplification.

One thought that occurs to me is to ask where your guitar sounds the way you like. Presumably, in your own ears while you're playing it.

Seems to me that you aren't going to get that exact sound because it doesn't exist anywhere else. So, your sound is going to either be too quiet or different.

I've heard results I liked from all kinds of different setups. Others have given you more detailed advice than I could.
The usual buying advice is to try something but get a return privilege.

If I understand your goal, I might start with an actual mic on a gooseneck, somehow affixed to the guitar in whatever position sounds best to you.

The coffee shop I just got home from playing was so intimate the upright bass went acoustic. I had my amp on 2 and the keyboard used his onboard speakers. If I had a proper acoustic archtop I would have been fine unamplified.

[SierraTango]

My guitar/trumpet duo plays a small, intimate cocktail lounge occasionally. I use my 1953 Epiphone Triumph Regent on those gigs, no pickup. It covers the venue very well. I use a small acoustic amp, a Shertler Unico for vocals and plug in a Sennheiser 609 into the second mic channel for the guitar, play about 12" away from the 609. You could try plugging a mic into the Polytone, however I think it would have to be a high impedance mic.

[garybaldy]

My guitar/trumpet duo plays a small, intimate cocktail lounge occasionally. I use my 1953 Epiphone Triumph Regent on those gigs, no pickup. It covers the venue very well. I use a small acoustic amp, a Shertler Unico for vocals and plug in a Sennheiser 609 into the second mic channel for the guitar, play about 12" away from the 609. You could try plugging a mic into the Polytone, however I think it would have to be a high impedance mic.

Just wondering, are mics generally low impedance? I have plugged a guitar with low impedance pickups into a guitar amp with no problem. Is it different for mics?

[SierraTango]

Just wondering, are mics generally low impedance? I have plugged a guitar with low impedance pickups into a guitar amp with no problem. Is it different for mics?

Most mics are low impedance, however I was just thinking that the OP stated that he was plugging into a Polytone, and there are no XLR inputs on those as far as I know. I guess he could get a adapter, XLR to 1/4" phone jack, however was thinking if he just got a mic with a phone jack cord he could plug straight in.
I have owned Polytones in the past and have no idea what kind of sound reproduction he would get out of that setup. The Schertler has two XLR inputs.

[garybaldy]

Most mics are low impedance, however I was just thinking that the OP stated that he was plugging into a Polytone, and there are no XLR inputs on those as far as I know. I guess he could get a adapter, XLR to 1/4" phone jack, however was thinking if he just got a mic with a phone jack cord he could plug straight in.
I have owned Polytones in the past and have no idea what kind of sound reproduction he would get out of that setup. The Schertler has two XLR inputs.

Thanks. I have had a mic cable for years which goes from XLR into mic and regular 1/4" jack. I seem to remember plugging it into PA amps with no XLRs!

[Cunamara]

So, if things go as planned, very soon I'll be playing some low key gigs with a couple other guitar player friends. They both have guitars with pickups.

I only have acoustic archtops. What to do.

I know what my options are but, not sure what all the pros and cons are. I understand the obvious ones but, can anyone chime in with their experience and guidance if you've ever been in a similar situation?

I love the sound of my acoustic archtop and prioritize keeping that if possible so, thinking clip on mike (e.g., DPA 4099) but not sure about the rest of signal chain. I don't have a mic pre and would be using a Polytone. Is this really practical?

I'm not crazy about getting a floating pickup. I've had DeArmond's and they sound great but, not the sound I want.

I guess I can buy a guitar with a neck humbucker or single coil or blade but, that's not 'my' guitar.

I would categorize my style as Trad Jazz. My role would be rhythm.

thanx in advance.

To be blunt and spit out the hard truth, if we're going to play out on gigs we're gonna have to get over having "my" sound. I have "my" sound which is the sound I get from my amp in my living room. It's pretty much exactly what I want. As soon as I go to a gig and the volume knobs are up higher to be able to be heard all the way to the back of a room larger than my 10 x 13' living room (over an audience, etc.), my sound changes. Everything reacts differently. If I get close to the sound I want in my living room, I start getting feedback because there is more bass frequency than the system will tolerate at gig level. It is just something we all have to deal with. So I have to turn the bass down and have a brighter, thinner sound than I really like. These are compromises that have to be made.

If you're going to play gigs to be heard and you want to maintain the purity of your acoustic archtop sound, you're gonna have to use a mic which has its own set of compromises (feedback, the mic having a different tonal response curve than your ears, etc.). The simplest thing there is to get a Shure SM57 (which is cheap, ubiquitous, and virtually every person running a soundboard on the planet knows how to mix for it. I see them on the local Craigslist for about 50 bucks in mint or near mint condition all the time), a mic stand and a small PA if one is not already at the venue. You will have to experiment on where to point the mic to get the sound you want (probably more or less aimed at your right hand) and where to put the PA speaker so that it's not feeding back into the mic.

Edit: rereading that, I'm sorry to sound like such a rude asshole. I think I'm grumpy about my own tonal issues that I just ran into last weekend's cocktail hour gig. Sincerely though, I really do recommend just getting an SM57, a mic stand, a little PA and calling it good.

[garybaldy]

I believe the hardest thing using a mic on an acoustic is hearing yourself through monitors without feedback. Without monitors it's hopeless.

[jazzeroo]

Schertler DYN-UNI P48 Universal Pickup - DjangoBooks.com

[garybaldy]

Schertler DYN-UNI P48 Universal Pickup - DjangoBooks.com

That's quite an outlay if it doesn't work for you.

[RLetson]

Getting an acoustic guitar to sound like itself (or to sound the way it does at home at at-home volume) in a public-space situation may be impossible. All my archtops are acoustics with decent floating mag pickups (Kent Armstrong, Lace, Guild DeArmond repro), and none of them exactly capture the guitars' rhythm voices--the Freddie Green-ish chunk. So I've settled for the traditional-electric-jazz voice, with all the tone controls on the amp (currently a Henriksen Blu Six) turned way down. And it's still more trebly than I like.

FWIW, the amplified sound I'm chasing is John Pizzarelli's rhythm voice, and I even put a set of tapewounds on my Eastman 805 (stock Armstrong floater). Still too much treble. I suspect that a good mic would capture the voice I'm chasing, but then I'd be fussing with volume and feedback issues. And I also suspect that much of Pizzarelli's sound comes as much from his right hand as from his gear. I'm working on that.

[garybaldy]

Getting an acoustic guitar to sound like itself (or to sound the way it does at home at at-home volume) in a public-space situation may be impossible. All my archtops are acoustics with decent floating mag pickups (Kent Armstrong, Lace, Guild DeArmond repro), and none of them exactly capture the guitars' rhythm voices--the Freddie Green-ish chunk. So I've settled for the traditional-electric-jazz voice, with all the tone controls on the amp (currently a Henriksen Blu Six) turned way down. And it's still more trebly than I like.

FWIW, the amplified sound I'm chasing is John Pizzarelli's rhythm voice, and I even put a set of tapewounds on my Eastman 805 (stock Armstrong floater). Still too much treble. I suspect that a good mic would capture the voice I'm chasing, but then I'd be fussing with volume and feedback issues. And I also suspect that much of Pizzarelli's sound comes as much from his right hand as from his gear. I'm working on that.

Do you strum over the neck?

[jazzeroo]

That's quite an outlay if it doesn't work for you.

only real way to get accurate sound (tone and timbre) is with a a really spendy shotgun mic (Sennheiser MKH 8050 / MKH 50 – supercardioid indoor microphone | Microphone Geeks) into a PA, and usually an auto feedback cancellation ( Amazon.com - LHQYA Fully Automatic Audio Processor, Professional Microphone Feedback Suppressor, Frequency Response: 125HZ~15KHZ/Signal-to-Noise Ratio:>90DB/Input Impedance: 20K?, Used for Performances) rack.

the schertler comes closest in my experience. yes, not cheap.

[garybaldy]

only real way to get accurate sound (tone and timbre) is with a a really spendy shotgun mic (Sennheiser MKH 8050 / MKH 50 – supercardioid indoor microphone | Microphone Geeks) into a PA, and usually an auto feedback cancellation ( Amazon.com - LHQYA Fully Automatic Audio Processor, Professional Microphone Feedback Suppressor, Frequency Response: 125HZ~15KHZ/Signal-to-Noise Ratio:>90DB/Input Impedance: 20K?, Used for Performances) rack.

the schertler comes closest in my experience. yes, not cheap.

I think I'll stick with my neck mount.

[Ukena]

Bluegrass musicians are very conscious about tradition, and consequently they mostly play acoustic instruments into microphones.

This doesn't seem to inhibit the sound of their instruments:

[garybaldy]

Bluegrass musicians are very conscious about tradition, and consequently they mostly play acoustic instruments into microphones.

This doesn't seem to inhibit the sound of their instruments:

I'm assuming that jazz guys that need advice are having trouble with tone, feedback and hearing themselves because they are playing with horns, keys and drums.