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  1. #51

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    Peter - I see the video has 'Silver Hand' in the title - a reference to Rings Of Power by any chance?

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  3. #52

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    A reference to Irish mythology? (Nuada)


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  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    A reference to Irish mythology? (Nuada)


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    Who may have been an inspiration for Celebrimbor: 'silver hand', but yeah, Nuada is more likely

  5. #54

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    Probably an influence.

    Poor ole Celebrimbor, he really was a berk.

    No I’ve not been watching the new series, is it any good!


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  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Probably an influence.

    Poor ole Celebrimbor, he really was a berk.

    No I’ve not been watching the new series, is it any good!


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    Well, Peter has already revealed his Joycean tendencies, so I'm sure Irish myth is more likely. But there's a pretty good argument on Wikipedia that Tolkien was strongly influenced by all of this: dwarves, rings, hills with burrows, 'silver hand', etc etc.

    If you're a Tolkien nerd like me, the second series is painful to watch. Not a total waste of time if you enjoy shouting at the TV, which in my dotage it turns out I do. Dramatically, I think it fails because it's trying to juggle too many threads. The whole Gandalf thing doesn't make any sense since we know he ought not to appear until the third age, and therefore by definition can't have any real influence on worldly events until that point. So watching him search for his staff ('you don't find the staff - the staff finds you' barf!) is neither exciting nor relevant. They include Tom Bombadil, almost just to prove why it was a good idea never to include him in previous Tolkien-inspired shows. The Numenor plot line got mostly dropped on the ground, but not before an incredible bit where they - the most civilised race of men on the planet - use human sacrifice to a sea monster as a representative of the Valar to decide the guilt or innocence of a person. One of the best episodes was number 7, where they focussed solely on Sauron versus the elves and the siege of Eregion (but even then they spoilt it with the ridiculous Adar subplot and the orcs now having families and feelings). Celebrimbor meets his end much as described in whatever obscure appendix it was described in, which was a high point for me. Visuals are great (turns out the vfx supe is a guy I used to work with at ILM back in the day). I'll no doubt keep watching until the bitter end.

  7. #56

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    My impression is that it was boring and beyond the nerd rage, is mostly an excuse for Reddit contrarians who read the History of Middle Earth books and enjoy telling the filthy casuals who only read the Silmarillion that everything they know is wrong.

    Btw if you need sleep I’d recommend the Fall of Gondolin audiobook. It’s 8 hours long and wonderfully dull. I was out like a light.

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  8. #57

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    I tried - really tried - with a couple of the History Of Middle Earth books, but couldn't bring myself to get very far. I read LOTR in my early teens and was obsessed with it and the related works for a long time, but eventually I started reading wider and realised there were many other works of greater literary value to be savoured.

    But I'm surprised to hear the show may be closer to Tolkien's intentions than what I know of them (ie just a Silmarillion slacker). I'd always assumed the show was taking tremendous liberties. Sad to hear about the Fall Of Gondolin. It's one of my favourite stories from the Silmarillion. But yes, I am very much in need of sleep

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    nice playing pamo.
    I didn’t care for his comping style, especially in the beginning when the guitarist is laying out the melody. And I’m a pianist.

    I thought he should have laid back without playing melodic single note lines over the guitar, and allowed the guitar to play the head on its own without extra frills from the piano. He simply should have comped rhythmically. But hey, that’s my stylistic preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    Miles told his musicians to listen to Frank Sinatra when learning tunes. (According to Charlie Davidson who tailored Miles’ and the band’s clothes in the '50ies and '60ies: "One day I asked him: 'Miles, do you really like Frank Sinatra?' 'Do I like him?' he said. "If he had one tit I'd marry him!'")
    Fabulous story of Miles thoughts about Frank! Thx.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffR
    I tried - really tried - with a couple of the History Of Middle Earth books, but couldn't bring myself to get very far. I read LOTR in my early teens and was obsessed with it and the related works for a long time, but eventually I started reading wider and realised there were many other works of greater literary value to be savoured.

    But I'm surprised to hear the show may be closer to Tolkien's intentions than what I know of them (ie just a Silmarillion slacker). I'd always assumed the show was taking tremendous liberties.
    Oh I very much doubt it - but you know what people are like haha. I suppose they are making an informed case for creative freedom, which is fair.

    I gather the published Silmarillion represents just one version of the legendarium apparently, and is just the most self consistent one Christopher could cobble together (with a bit of judicious bridging text).

    This is all second hand as I’m not quite up to wading through eleven volumes (or whatever) of HoME, but If the late writings are taken into account it doesn’t represent the preferred final version either which was moving to some revisions of the basic nature of the world and its timeline. In fact many of the writings are early with some mild contradictions with LoTR if you look closely.

    orcs have kids, or don’t, were automatons, or corrupted humans, or elves. (Orcs were a big theological issue because if they had souls they had to be redeemable under Catholic doctrine.)

    Earlier versions are more steampunk/science fictional in some ways, echoes of the Somme even in the siege of Gondolin. The noldor were originally called gnomes. (Glad he changed that, but you can still see it)

    How many Balrogs?

    And who is Gil-Galad’s dad? No one knows.

    It’s pretty interesting. I think people imagine Tolkien had it all rigorously worked out and then just set stories in the world. Actually the impression I get is the stories led the process.


    For myself I don’t care about changes so long as the result is good. It doesn’t sound like RoP is good.

    Sad to hear about the Fall Of Gondolin. It's one of my favourite stories from the Silmarillion. But yes, I am very much in need of sleep
    Well give it a go, it's a win-win! ;-)

    It gave me HoME vibes tbh, there are several version of the story in the book (not that I notice, I was asleep) - I'll give it another try. I do appreciate Christopher trying not to add to what his father wrote, but a lot of it is a bit hard to get into.

    The Silmarillion version is one of my favourite bits too - it's a great story with some haunting images.

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    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-14-2024 at 01:20 PM.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Oh I very much doubt it - but you know what people are like.

    This is all second hand as I’m not quite up to wading through eleven volumes (or whatever) of HoME, but I gather the published Silmarillion represents just one version of the legendarium apparently and is just the most self consistent one Christopher could cobble together (with a bit of judicious bridging text).

    If the late writings are taken into account it doesn’t represent the preferred final version either which was moving to some revisions of the basic nature of the world and its timeline. In fact many of the writings are early with some mild contradictions with LoTR if you look closely.

    It’s pretty interesting. I think people thought Tolkien had it all rigorously worked out and then just set stories in it. Actually the impression I get is the stories led the process.

    In some later versions the cosmology is more realistic (middle earth was never flat and the sun and moon always existed) and Ungoliant wove a web the size of the solar system. Early on, Sauron’s role in the Beren/Lúthien story is taken by a giant cat.

    orcs have kids, or don’t, were automatons, or corrupted humans, or elves. (Orcs were a big theological issue because if they had souls they had to be redeemable under Catholic doctrine.)

    Earlier versions are more steampunk/science fictional in some ways, echoes of the Somme even in the siege of Gondolin. The noldor were originally called gnomes. (Glad he changed that, but you can still see it)

    How many Balrogs?

    And who is Gil-Galad’s dad? No one knows.

    Turns out whether or not balrogs had wings or elves had pointy ears is the least of the mysteries haha.

    For myself I don’t care about changes so long as the result is good. It doesn’t sound like RoP is good.


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    I only recently found out about Sauron originally being a cat, which I like, since we have a black cat named Crowley, after the king of Hell in Supernatural (I also have ambitions to work up Ozzy's Mr Crowley into a jazz form, but that's a different conversation). And this reminded me of Sauron being lord of werewolves in the tale of Beren and Luthien, and something quite else - master manipulator - in the second age, and something else again in the third. (The interplay between him and Celebrimbor in ROP season 2 is probably the best bit.) The evolution or changing role of the character is pretty interesting. A quick google suggests Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon - what am I missing? I saw the Gnomes -> Noldor thing, and I guess it sort of makes sense if you accept a silent 'G' and the fact gnomes are/were exceptional at crafting. But yeah. the Noldor we know and love are much more noble and tragic than one could ever associate with a garden ornament.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffR
    I only recently found out about Sauron originally being a cat, which I like, since we have a black cat named Crowley, after the king of Hell in Supernatural (I also have ambitions to work up Ozzy's Mr Crowley into a jazz form, but that's a different conversation).
    Tolkers not a fan of cats or spiders.

    Oh I bet what his face, the Testament guy has done it.

    And this reminded me of Sauron being lord of werewolves in the tale of Beren and Luthien, and something quite else - master manipulator - in the second age, and something else again in the third. (The interplay between him and Celebrimbor in ROP season 2 is probably the best bit.) The evolution or changing role of the character is pretty interesting. A quick google suggests Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon - what am I missing?
    It's a whole thing. Again, Christopher just went "I'm going with Fingon"

    I suspect the whole HoME might been by way of apology - "look guys this is what. had to work with, pease don't take it as the last word". Which of course everyone did.

    It's not a game world, ultimately, which makes it more compelling to me. It seems like real myth, fragments that contradict. Some of it seems to have been on purpose, the LoTR text is not meant to be the original, etc.

    I saw the Gnomes -> Noldor thing, and I guess it sort of makes sense if you accept a silent 'G' and the fact gnomes are/were exceptional at crafting. But yeah. the Noldor we know and love are much more noble and tragic than one could ever associate with a garden ornament.
    Oh I love them! They are so properly Iron Age in the wider myth - all those fateful oaths and awful deeds that they know are terrible and do anyway, being sassy ***hats to each other - and moments of thrilling heroism. Larger than life. Great stuff. Elves in the LoTR are mostly insufferable, but those guys I can get behind...

    I remember liking the tack Jackson took in the movies making them more ... fey ... threatening, almost? More Irish, maybe.

    Shame they all have basically the same name. It's like bloody Gabriel Garcia Marquez.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-14-2024 at 01:48 PM.

  13. #62

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    Well this is adorable

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Well this is adorable
    I don’t even hide it any more that’s the worst thing


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  15. #64

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    Lol - me neither.

    BTW, I forgot to mention last night, but on the very slim chance that you haven't read it already, Tolkien's essay Beowulf: The Monsters and The Critics provides an excellent insight into this thoughts on literature and heroism.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffR
    Lol - me neither.

    BTW, I forgot to mention last night, but on the very slim chance that you haven't read it already, Tolkien's essay Beowulf: The Monsters and The Critics provides an excellent insight into this thoughts on literature and heroism.
    Oh that one I’ve read! Read it with the Seamus Heaney translation. Also his essay out front of that is really good. More about translation and less about the mythology, but very cool.

  17. #66

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    Hahaha, you bloody Hobbits went totally off rail.

    Body and Soul at a local session-hobbit-jpg

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffR
    (I also have ambitions to work up Ozzy's Mr Crowley into a jazz form, but that's a different conversation).
    I don't know a better place to have this conversation besides this free fall of a thread. Have you heard the Cardigans version of Mr. Crowley? The Cardigans do three or four covers of Sabbath/Ozzy songs, which made me check them out, but they're all light and poppy. This is acapella!

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    Hahaha, you bloody Hobbits went totally off rail.

    Body and Soul at a local session-hobbit-jpg
    'Cause we're bad hobbits

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul
    I don't know a better place to have this conversation besides this free fall of a thread. Have you heard the Cardigans version of Mr. Crowley? The Cardigans do three or four covers of Sabbath/Ozzy songs, which made me check them out, but they're all light and poppy. This is acapella!
    That's nuts!

    "Won't you ride my white horse? It's symbolic of course" - they just don't write lyrics like that anymore.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffR
    'Cause we're bad hobbits
    OMG this means you are orks!!!

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    OMG this means you are orks!!!
    No no! That would be bad elves. Bad hobbits are just hard to shake.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffR
    No no! That would be bad elves. Bad hobbits are just hard to shake.
    My first access to the Tolkien universe was The Hobbit. I love those illustrations by GDR graphic artist Klaus Ensikat.

    DuckDuckGo

  24. #73

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    I’m definitely an Orc


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  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffR
    That's nuts!

    "Won't you ride my white horse? It's symbolic of course" - they just don't write lyrics like that anymore.
    That is a bar, as the kids say


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  26. #75

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    Cross-positing from the Food sub-forum, by way of explanation of my sudden interest in Celebrimbor. (Profound apologies, Peter):

    Introducing my new youtube channel: Celembribor's Kitchen. In this first episode the great smith and chef of Eregion Celebrimbor cooks up a pizza.

    Please like and subscribe so I can monetise this and never again have to endure another coding or system design interview. Click the notification bell if you'd like to be informed when next Gondor calls for aid.