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Im not in the UK but I went to a smaller music school too without much (any) name recognition. And there’s a parallel problem there … meaning I think I got a pretty good education (particularly in classical guitar and pedagogy) but folks could very easily not.
Originally Posted by James W
So I think at all different types of places, there are a nice wide variety of ways to get good educations or to waste your money.
What I tell students who are doing the audition process, is that they should ignore the name of the school and find (1) a teacher they want to sound like and/or vibe with, (2) a place where they can study a thing they love, and (3) a community they’d like to be a part of (a city or scene, or in some cases that could be a self sustaining scene within a music department).
I didn’t do any of those things and got immensely lucky that I stumbled into them or in the case of the third, met something of a mentor who dragged me out to all his gigs and started calling me to sub etc. (I got sort of shunted into the classical program by forces beyond my control and ended up loving it. Also just didn’t know enough to be looking for the teachers and ended up with a classical teacher and a jazz teacher both who were really good).
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09-15-2024 04:59 PM
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I’ve seen some bullying in fact, modeled by the some of the teachers. Fortunately, more often, other musicians are supportive and friendly. I suppose it’s possible for a hanger on to wear out his or her welcome but most people know enough not to do that.
I occasionally seen it within a small group. It may occur when one musician feels that he’s too good for the rest. He might be right, but it always seems to me that what he is really angry about is that he doesn’t have a better place to play.
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Was it worth it?
both absolutely yes and absolutely no.
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For me it was worth it, I did a bachelor in Jazz guitar. If one has the passion and the dedication, it's a great path.
The whole idea behind music college level studies however is not only to prepare you for a music career, but to cultivate contacts, and also to prepare you for various careers and jobs in the music and teaching industry. Meaning you can still focus your life in music, and have decent choices if playing music doesn't end up being your thing.
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It can't be the same as going to an elite four-year jazz program, like Berklee or North Texas or U Miami, but I spent a year at GIT in 1984 and it was among the greatest experiences of my life. Howard Roberts. Joe Diorio. Don Mock. Frank Gambale. Ron Eschete. Keith Wyatt. Steve Trovato. All teaching classes. Eric Johnson, Steve Morse, Larry Carlton all stopping by to give one-shot seminars now and again. If I thought heaven would be even half that much fun, I'd start behavin' better.
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I guess the nature of a "music school" depends on a lot of context. Here in the US, just about every state university system has traditionally offered some kind of music education, starting with the programs designed to turn out K-12 music teachers and band/orchestra instructors and going up to performance and musicology degrees. There was a time when just about every mid-level state-system campus had a music department with at least that K-12 mission. Main-campus universities (such as the land-grant schools in the midwest) have been a notch or six more ambitious--I'm thinking of, say, Indiana University. But even my grad school, Southern Illinois in Carbondale (excellent but less prestigious than the main Champaign campus), had a string quartet in residence when I was there in the 60s-70s, and there were frequent classical concerts or recitals.
In the jazz group where I sit in, I'm the only one in the room with no college-level musical training. And aside from the just-retired drummer (and former music-department chair), all of them have non-musical day jobs, with music a side-gig/passion project. My impression is that their training had a serious positive effect on their musicianship. It certainly didn't hurt. Nor have they mentioned the kind of elitist bullying reported upthread. But then, they all went through solid mid-level universities in Wisconsin and Minnesota, not the conservatory-like programs at IU or UNT.
BTW, mid-level colleges all over the US have been reducing or eliminating performing-arts programs--my wife's campus, a 150-year-old teacher's college, recently eliminated the music department. (Also philosophy, and has shrunk history and English to the point where they're part of a community-college-style "humanities" department.) Don't get me started. . . .
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Some thoughts -
I went to grad school at Indiana University in the early '90s. After finishing a Bachelor's degree in Music Merchandising as a voice major, I had continued to study guitar on my own and I was accepted to Northern Illinois graduate school by Fareed Haque. I just couldn't afford to move to go there. David Baker actually listened to a tape I sent him, and he answered his phone when I called his office. He remembered my playing as soon as I told him my name. (The tape was from a cassette recorder I put under my chair on a gig playing jazz standards, and I really had no idea what I was doing.) He said I could come and be a jazz studies major, despite the fact that I had no formal guitar training and they did not have a requirement for private lessons in the jazz degree program. When I got to my first jazz improv class at IU, I realized everyone in the class (mostly horn players) all sounded like Charlie Parker, and I sounded like me. I worked my ass off to keep up.
David Baker was a great guy and REALLY fun to have as a classroom teacher, great to talk and hang with. He was a genius with an amazing memory.
So...
Learning the David Baker Bebop approach was GREAT for me. It taught me to hear things I might not have discovered, made me develop technical stuff that I might not have, and it made me want to keep developing the system to make it work for me - a guitar player with my own deficiencies.
I think the knock on some IU grads is valid - they all sounded alike at that time, they are all pattern players. BUT, I think many who learn everything required to get the degree let that "checklist" of things be the end of what is need to be a player. After finishing my degree, I had to convert the strict adherence to the David Baker way to something more guitaristic. That made it work for me and probably helped me get away from the formulaic way of playing everything. But over time, I felt like I stopped evolving. Also - Professor Baker taught CST enough to make me realize it is a thing I should pursue, and I never could get it to be easy or sound like music.
Fast forward many years...
I signed up for Jimmy Bruno's first school (Artist Works, maybe??)
For me (and I think that's important to point out), Jimmy pulled back the curtain and made me a lot better by simplifying. I have mentioned here that I taught Music Theory/Ear training at the college level for about 30 years. I LOVE it, but it is what makes me overly analytical. I think that was my downfall with CST.
Jimmy Bruno is a wonderful teacher, and we all know what a amazing player he really is.
I think everything you learn, from one lesson with a particular teacher or four or more years of structured music school, you have to continue to develop it and make it work for you. Make it your own. I know I have a LOT of work to do the be the player I want to be, and that's what still drives me.Last edited by ScottM; 09-16-2024 at 11:44 AM.
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Starostenko? Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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You might want to consider if you can take private lessons with that teacher for rather less money as well. But it isn’t just about the lessons. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
For my MA I interviewed a number of guitar performance graduates. The main theme that came up again and again was the importance of having people to play with, and the importance of the community. That’s something that music college provides, but the determining factor is cohort. Otoh a general music dept is less likely to provide a high level cohort of high level jazz students. Which is probably my main reason for suggesting a recognised jazz school or, ideally a recognised jazz school in New York (or failing that perhaps Amsterdam, Paris or another strong jazz city) to the serious student.
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For sure. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
But in New York, say, City College, or Rutgers (in Jersey) … both of which have great jazz programs and a lot of the teachers that teach at New School and NYU teach there too (also Queens College, Brooklyn Colllege depending on what you want to do)
Meaning that the if being in New York and studying with a certain person is important, than the institution becomes less so.
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Yes, I get this impression. A friend of mine went to Purchase for instance and studied with Pasquale. But he was disappointed with his first degree in London. He seems to have had a mega time in NY. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Mind you I know plenty of people who went to the top jazz schools in London and were also disappointed haha. Mostly boppers. Although we have a creative and hip scene here in London, it is not so good for learning the traditional stuff for various reasons, and I think a lot of young straight-ahead players are hip to that and serve their apprenticeship in NY until their visas or money (or both) run out, and come back here playing at a high level and cash in a bit on the NY mystique. I am sure it’s similar elsewhere.
So maybe my way of putting it is a bit inaccurate.
What I think I’m trying to say is that it’s easy to spend a lot of money on not a lot and one needs to have their eyes open.
I’m old enough to have been paid money to go to college (no really, it was a thing in the UK, and no fees for any of my degree.) young people now have a lot to think about and it’s much more so in the US.
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That's still a thing in the US, but not for the Arts. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
At least they're transparent about it--hell, SUNY is literally called Purchase
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Ah man I’m in Hampton Roads now so that’s the first career thought of by musicians down here! Originally Posted by Onesimus
It can be kind of a bummer because a lot of them cycle in and out so quick, but a lot of good musicians coming in and out which is good on balance for sure.
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the one and only. Originally Posted by Jonah
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Onesimus--To my ears, the standout player in our local jazz group is the sax guy, who (following his father's footsteps) spent a lot of years in the Air Force bands. He's highly proficient technically and very, very musical. (Not that the rest of the band is chopped liver, but playing rhythm behind him is like hitting a stretch of brand-new blacktop on the expressway--smooth as can be.) And at the Augusta swing workshops I encountered a couple veterans of the Navy's system (horn and guitar chairs in The Commodores) who are among the finest damn players I've ever met--and I spent a dozen years doing music journalism, so I've met a bunch of really good players. So the military music establishment must be doing something right.
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People underestimate the standard of playing in military bands.
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Maybe obvious but I'd recommend spending as little as possible on tuition. This may be through scholarships or by going to a reasonably priced school.
Depends on your level, getting your stuff together somewhat before arriving on a scene/school is best.
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Speaking of my getting very lucky and being saved from my own decisions (or lack of decision), that was some advice I got from a professor when I was applying to grad school. He didn't come right out and say "don't go" but made it very clear that, by that point, you should really be evaluating on cost/benefit. (undergrad is a little different –– music degree not being any less marketable than, say, and English or Philosophy degree). Anyway ... I applied to grad schools anyway and was registered for classes at Rutgers and had signed a lease on an apartment. Two days before tuition was due (I kid you not) the house we'd leased was struck by lightning and burned down. The landlord sent our deposit back and we decided to move to New York for "a gap year." Never went back. Originally Posted by bediles
I don't think Rutgers would've been a bad decision ... I've heard mostly really good stuff about the program from people I met since, and of course I (and every guitar player who has ever crossed his path) absolutely love Vic Juris, who was teaching there at the time (Dave Stryker now who's no slouch either). I ended up living in a basement studio with my wife in Bay Ridge. Mushrooms on the baseboards and old carpet that probably hadn't been steamed since 1976, but the best bagels and pizza in the city. I was able to get lessons with people I wanted to work with, saw looooooads of music, went to tons and tons of sessions, gigged quite a bit, ran into Vic quite a lot with my work. And all without the debt –– certainly plenty I missed out on for not going to school, but I think it was more of a trade-off than a sacrifice.
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Good one! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That's still a thing in the US, but not for the Arts.
At least they're transparent about it--hell, SUNY is literally called Purchase
Well, Purchase is one of the 64 schools in the State University of NY, located in, coincidentally, Purchase, NY. There's a fantastic SUNY music school way up in the northern part of the state, Potsdam, where my brother went; he got a job teaching music upon graduation, along with something like 70% of his fellow graduates. For a New York State resident, the tuition is a fraction of most private schools.
I got a scholarship to Oberlin College (class of '71), whose Conservatory was and is considered to be finest in the US. The Jazz program was incorporated two years after I graduated. I was in the liberal arts college, but one of the attractions for me was the conservatory, with its plethora of practice rooms – I never had a problem finding an empty piano or pipe organ room. I would listen to music on my dinky stereo in my dorm room, and then go to the conservatory to play what I could remember. I learned The Entertainer that way – several phrases at a time. I also took a couple of theory classes at the conservatory. I was just a relative beginner on the guitar at that point, learning from listening to Paul Simon and Taj Mahal.
I also learned to play McCartney's Blackbird from hearing it on the radio – they played it an awful lot in the fall of 1968, during my sophomore year – I would play it on the piano in the dining room, after everyone left (my scholarship job was cleaning the dining hall after dinner). One day the premier piano student in the conservatory came rushing in, asking me where I learned to play the song. He was surprised when I told him I learned it by ear from the radio.
One of my nephews is a graduate of the New England School of Music's jazz program (trumpet), and he enjoyed it immensely. He now teaches music at the grade school level, but continues to play occasionally in the NYC area.
I wish I had gone to a music school, but at that point in my life I was not thinking of music as a career – it was simply part of my life, like jeans or an army field jacket. On the other hand, my scholastic efforts left a great deal to be desired, and I might have made a balls-up of it; but if the internet had existed in 1970, I would probably have spent the last part of the twentieth century a much better guitarist than I actually was.
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imagine if jazz musicians did care what college you went to! (can't they hear what you're playing?)
I can't help thinking that jazz - as a form of play which is more riotous and unruly than most - will be lucky to survive if it ends up rooted in an academic cultural habitat.Last edited by Groyniad; 09-16-2024 at 06:18 PM.
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If we're talking about performance based programs, conservatory-like or an actual conservatory program, this is where the apprenticeship happens bc there's limited 2-week residencies and the like nowadays. Student to student, student to prof etc. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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Absolutely insane story, like what are the chances. Sounds like it worked out OK! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Yes it is objectively the best story in my repertoire. Originally Posted by bediles
We thought we got scammed but we took the train up to find another place and walked by the old one. It was still standing but was fully broiled.
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I went to a school that, although not 'elite', was chock full of terrific jazz players. But what was interesting was that the music school was run by classical musicians (I'd estimate a 70/30 classical/jazz ratio in the student body and most of the administration were all classical types). Many of them were the ones that thumbed their noses at jazz for not being 'serious' music (and heaven forbid you mention something as crude as blues). I never felt any animosity from other jazz musicians for being a guitar player, but we all felt like second class citizens at times for being "jazzers".
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