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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoss

    I'm not surprised your club or restaurant owner is happy. For one thing, he is blessed with the bliss of the ignorant, for he is so dimwitted that he apparently doesn't consider his takings when programming entertainment, which most managers I have been in contact with would consider their top priority (and here's me thinking that the US was home to the world's finest business schools).
    Managers?

    Here most places don't have managers. There are some rooms that use agents, but you, John, would probably equate them with the union since they get a cut of your proceeds. Perhaps you would consider them sort of 'underbosses'.

    Some rooms are decent rooms and do consider things like caliber of musician, notariety of the performer, etc, but those places are few and far between.

    The most common gig these days here is the restaurant/cafe. No manager, no agent, no union, no scrupples.

    They don't really care too much as long as the customers are happy. If they get free or cheap music then that's a plus for them. Helps their bottom line.

    After reading your reply I don't think the church gigs are the same here as there. It's not the church that hires you to play the wedding but usually the parishoner. Some churches do have their own organist and he is paid but I don't believe it's as much as you think.

    The big pay day here is the reception. Cocktail Hour gigs are the best. You hit a homerun. But there again you sometimes have top kick back. You know, a "mordida". Sometimes this get's you more work and sometimes not.

    But those gigs aren't what this is about. It's about the more common run of the mill bar/restaurant/cafe gig. And,it's about maintaining standards in the workplace and that includes the pay as well as the performance.

    I don't think professional musicians are asking for much. A decent wage. But everytime some guy goes in and undercuts the gig then theres no longer a decent wage to be had.

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  3. #27

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    Neighborhood restaurant gigs, leave that to the amateur.

    Leave it to someone who loves playing music. Not someone who thinks they deserve making a living bottom feeding on these type of gigs.

    Most restaurants can't afford to pay a decent wage to musicians, they're barely getting by as it is. Union scale prices the union professionals out of this market. Therefore by definition these are amateur gigs (or pros who will play becase they love to play music).

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Neighborhood restaurant gigs, leave that to the amateur.

    Leave it to someone who loves playing music. Not someone who thinks they deserve making a living bottom feeding on these type of gigs.

    Most restaurants can't afford to pay a decent wage to musicians, they're barely getting by as it is. Union scale prices the union professionals out of this market. Therefore by definition these are amateur gigs (or pros who will play becase they love to play music).
    Unfortunately out here it ain't as good as it used to be. People just don't support it anymore.

    Even A listers like Vic Juris don't always draw outside of the city.

    I hardly gig anymore. I usually get 2 or 3 calls a year now. So as long as it's not a late gig and pays well enough I take it. I am thinking about teaching again though

  5. #29

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    Hi John,

    I go see Peter Sprague play in a trio at a nearby resturant... he's a monster.



    I see him with about 10-15 others at the resturaunt with maybe six to eight of those people there specifically to see the band. Say the increment is eight people and the restuarant makes $50 per person, $20 of that gross profit... $160 in total... Can't justify paying the musicians much in that scenario.

    That's the state of Jazz in San Diego. It's dysmal for the professional.

  6. #30

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    This is an age-old topic, of course, and the discussion has been going on for decades. The fact is that a professional musician in our society has no protection whatsoever except for the very weak union. No benefits, no job security of any sort. The union, for all of its faults, can be somewhat helpful in the area of protecting your basic rights, if everybody follows the rules, starting with proper contracts. I am, and have been for many years, a full-time professional performer, with occasional side trips into teaching, producing and arranging/composing, all of which are part of the pro musician's job description. There are basic minimum scales established for different types of gigs, and a good local will have a pension plan and offer some other services, including advertising and publicity in the newsletter, and even free or cheap rehearsal space, as well as instant access to the rest of the members. For the non-union newbies starting out, playing a date for free as an audition for pay is not a bad idea, but the measure of what you are paid should be commensurate with the union scale in your area unless you don't mind putting professionals out of work. The most important thing to remember is that your strongest point of negotiation is not how well you play; it's how well you help the club or restaurant owner make enough money to pay you what you want.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    The fact is that a professional musician in our society has no protection whatsoever except for the very weak union. No benefits, no job security of any sort. The union, for all of its faults, can be somewhat helpful in the area of protecting your basic rights, if everybody follows the rules, starting with proper contracts.

    For the non-union newbies starting out, playing a date for free as an audition for pay is not a bad idea, but the measure of what you are paid should be commensurate with the union scale in your area unless you don't mind putting professionals out of work. The most important thing to remember is that your strongest point of negotiation is not how well you play; it's how well you help the club or restaurant owner make enough money to pay you what you want.

    Thanks Ron

    I was hoping some more people would chime in. Try and try as we may some of the forums members appear to not be able to seperate a hobby or pastime from when it becomes somebodies job.

    As far as setting price, as you say, one should ask for the going rate and not undercut. I don't care what profession you're in. Nobody likes to lose work to someone who undercut them just to get that work. Eventually, if it happenens enough times to affect your wallet, you will start to get pissed.


    Musicians, and let me specify guitar players mostly, seem to have this attitude about gigs. Everybody thinks they can do one and is willing to short change themselves to do it.

    I'll bet the first thought a lot of members here have when they see another guitar player on his gig is "hey , this should be my gig" . There is a lot of truth to the joke about how many guitar players does it take to screw in a light bulb? it takes 7. one to screw it in and the other 6 to say "hey I can do that too"

    It's a shame. I usually don't see too much of this with other instrumentalists. (maybe singers though. They get that prima dona complex )

    I'm not a member but back in the 70's the union was stronger. I knew lot's of card carrying members. Nowadays membership is down, theres less union gigs and people will work for just about anything.

    Don't steal other musicians gigs by undercutting them!

    If you want the gig, ask for it. If they say no then so be it. Look for a gig elsewhere or convince the owner that you have more to offer than what he has now.

  8. #32

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    It seems to me what you charge should be a reflection of how many people you attract to the establishment.

    A good classic rock band in our area might attract several hundred people to a bar.

    An exceptional jazz musician might attract 20 people to a bar.

    If I own the bar and have to pay a union scale, I can't afford to hire the jazz musician.

    If I'm in that rock band, joining the union makes no financial sense. I can demand a good wage because I'm worth it to the bar owner.

    And noone's going to undercut that classic rock band because their value is how many customers they attract. If you can bring in more folks then you'd be nuts to not charge for it and the bar owner would be nuts not to pay it.

    The only reason a bar owner would let someone undercut someone else is when the person being undercut doesn't bring in enough additional patrons to justify what they're charging.

    To the bar owner it's about patrons, to the patrons it's about entertainment. In the barroom/restuarant scenario; The musicians product isn't art, it's entertainment. Your worth isn't how well you play, it's how many patrons you attract. In this case, you should only get paid what you are worth, not what some union decides is a livable wage... We're not talking coal miners in a one company town... Musicians are highly skilled, often highly educated, and they choose their profession. (If they were after livable wages, they should have become accountants - it's much easier and pays way more).

    Post script: There's nothing wrong with pursueing music as art. But realize that Wes Montgomery worked as a machinist during most of his music career.
    Last edited by fep; 06-10-2010 at 10:00 AM.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    A good classic rock band
    oxymoron

    There's not many gigs in my immediate neck of the woods for what I do, but the ones I have landed have paid well. I'm not competing with classic rock bands--their job is to sell beer in plastic cups and help people hook up. My job is to provide a pleasant backdrop to people eating spaghetti, drinking martinis, or contemplating adultery.

    Is that the ideal gig? No. Can a good player who's reliable and knows a lot of songs (including plenty of frank for when uncle joe gets tipsy and wants to sing "summer wind") make good money doing it? Absolutely. I have a good friend who's a piano teacher by day and a cocktail lounge player by night, and he makes enough to live comfortably. If somebody came in on his restaurant gig, he'd be hurting.

    I wanted to be done with this thread, but I can't shut up because I feel people are really not understanding what's going on here. For some people, this is their job. No, it's not art, it's not a theater stuffed with a few hundred rapt, polite listeners, but it pays these cats bills. It has nothing to do with "I'm better, so I should play" or "I can do that" or union wages any of that.

    It has to do with common, human, courtesy. I don't get whats so difficult about wanting to be a person who doesn't screw someone out of a job, someone who has a common interest, someone we should be helping out and supporting and tipping and saying "good job, thanks for keeping this music out there."

    If you can't get that, then don't be expected to be invited to that big jam session in the sky someday.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    There are basic minimum scales established for different types of gigs
    As I say, unions have their place - if you're in the orchestra of a major Broadway musical and you take less than union rates, you probably need your head examining. We weren't talking about those types of gigs, we were talking about playing in a pub.
    but the measure of what you are paid should be commensurate with the union scale in your area unless you don't mind putting professionals out of work.
    For one thing, what we seem to be finding here is a kind of papal concept of "work:" any potential gig is a potentially professional gig, therefore any attempt to sell yourself for the price you want to charge is a sin, like killing a foetus by using a condom. And for another, if I - for example - am not a union member (and I'm not any more), if I don't owe the union anything, then where does my obligation to stick to its terms come from?

  11. #35

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    Fep,

    A lot of the places I played at had a regular customer base. The owners wanted to present live music as a something extra, something that would set them apart from the next restaurant.

    It was not my job to bring people. It was my job to entertain them with listenable (hopefully) music.

    Most restauraunts that have music appreciate it. A lot of the places coudn't be bothered changing bands. For example we would do the whole summer season at this outdoor cafe on Friday and Saturday.

    But not all owners are like that.

    I guess, after reading everybodies replies, that the real issue is undercutting has kept wages stagnant. The going rate has not gone up. In 1991 I would get $50 to play 3 hours at a restaurant w/o a liquor license

    One place I played I did for $35 playing from 10 till 1 (back in 1991) because they never had live music before so we made deal with the bar owner to try it out and see how it went.

    Now it's 19 years later and it's the same money if your lucky. That's sad. I think your post about reataurant's may be more right than I would like to admit.

    I'm a little old to be in a rock band. But I do have a tele so maybe I should join a country western band I here that pays well around here. Not too much competition.

  12. #36

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    A professional knows there is more to working than playing bars and restaurants. To be a pro, it's more business than music. Peoples' willingness to accept a DJ as live entertainment has hurt the business more than amateurs who play for free or next to nothing. Just remember that playing for free in someone's business is a foolish exploitation of yourself. Those business owners aren't bashful about making a living, they don't give away free food or booze.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW400
    Try and try as we may some of the forums members appear to not be able to seperate a hobby or pastime from when it becomes somebodies job.
    We are able, or I am. This is not a matter of understanding, it is one of choice.
    If you want the gig, ask for it. If they say no then so be it. Look for a gig elsewhere or convince the owner that you have more to offer than what he has now.
    My price is part of what I have to offer, and I have every right to charge forty dollars to your fifty, or less. Gigs aren't for ever, you're lucky if you keep one for a few months, let alone years, the punters get tired of you, the waiters get tired of you, plus, the owner won't wait for you to tell him you've found something better and are moving on, he'll make his move first. So why shouldn't another musician?

    Look, about thirty years ago I once auditioned with a trio (i.e., we made a quartet) at a place where the other three had been part of the regular 5-piece band which had broken up, so they thought the gig was "rightfully" theirs. We had an exquisitely tasteful repertoire but played like shit, and the gig went to this middle-aged (around my age now, I suppose) hippy type who did things like Steppenwolf covers, solo. I thought he was great, but the others hated him, he had "robbed" them of their gig, he was old and corny and didn't have the good grace to stand aside for us up-and-coming music-school educated youngsters. Of course price was a factor, as well, not that there was any of this union-rate controversy involved, but the owner obviously didn't have to offer as much to this one guy as to a four-piece. In the end, the rest of the band got in a tetchy argument with the owner and made a scene, one of the most embarrassing moments of my music-school years.

    Well sod that, say I. We blew it, it was not the Steppenwolf guy's fault, not the owner's fault, not the union's fault, but ours, and ours alone. And was the Steppenwolf guy being unfair, presenting himself alone to compete with a quartet? Of course not, on the contrary, we were at a theoretical advantage, just as you are at a theoretical advantage because you know your market, you know your public and you have been doing it for years. And you think you have the right to deny a newbie or an amateur one of his few advantages over you, that he can undercut you? If you can't keep your gigs, it's your fault, not anyone else's.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoss
    .

    You have the right to charge whatever you want. Charge your $40 to my $50. The next guy will charge $35 to your $40 and so on. So what did we really do? Get ourselves a gig or just lower the going rate for live music for that gig?

    Like I said. Wages have not changed since 1990. Why? People keep doing this sort of thing. We are our own worst enemy.

    As Cosmic Gumbo and others say, what you charge is a measure of what you're worth. Feeling that one has to lower ones prices doesn't speak well about what one feels they're worth.

    I'm just sorry that many here don't view it as a job like any other.


    BTW I know some people that have a 'room' for years. They work as long as current managment is there. The place hires the musican the same as they hire for any other job.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW400
    Try and try as we may some of the forums members appear to not be able to seperate a hobby or pastime from when it becomes somebodies job.
    John, I sure agree with that.

    I think most hobbyists (myself included) would like to be professional musicians, if that profession could provide a good wage, stability and benefits (for that matter I'd like to play in the NBA). I tried to make it as a musician, it didn't work out (perhaps I was being undercut by wannabees ).

    And as a hobbyist I see playing music as one of the most rewarding and fun pursuits that I have.

    But I worked myself through a few other occupations that gave me job stability, a good wage, and benefits. I didn't hate my jobs but I didn't like them either. That's why they call it work.

    But I see it unreasonable to expect me to stop playing music because I can't find a gig that will pay me union scale. After all it's a hobby and I love doing it.

    If someone else finds that they can't make a living playing music, they can go find some other job. That's what I did. Yeah it sucks that I can't make a good living playing music... But who said I should be so entitled, who said anyone should be so entitled.

    So yeah, whether ones making a living playing music or not I see playing music as a hobby. I don't seperate the two. And if you're fortunate enough to make a good stable living pursuing your hobby, well I wish I was you.
    Last edited by fep; 06-10-2010 at 11:42 AM.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep

    That's the state of Jazz in San Diego. It's dysmal for the professional.
    Do you know Bill Coleman? I heard him in San Diego, man was he a good player, and nice guy.


    Playing in a small lounge at a very high end tennis club. Asked me If I wanted to try his guitar, maybe an L5. (no I did not want to do that)

  17. #41

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    Re undercutting: Here's something to open your eyes a bit.

    A friend (drummer) was living in New York City. A guitar player he knew, had a recording gig. After much scuffling, he was making some headway.

    During the recording session, a phone call was received at the studio, to the people paying for it all.

    It was from another guitar player downstairs, calling to see if the first guy was cutting it.

    If not, he said, he was available to come right up and take over.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoss
    Well, you're a musician if you play music, not because you buy a union card and learn the macho vocabulary. Unions have their place in the world, but if you're not an insider, they are often effectively the enemy because they are, by nature, corporativist organizations intended to keep prices high and outsiders out, I know a little about this. If the lad wants the gig, there's no reason he shouldn't ask for as little or much as he wants, it's between him and the landlord. He's got an hour and a half's material, he needs to build repertoire, and he's looking for gigging experience, it's a fine way to go about it. Frankly, I'd do it for the beer money, in his shoes, why not? Beats busking, he won't get rained on.
    +1! This talk of undercutting and 'musos' is stupid. Pretty much musos are what laymen call 'a**holes.' They consider themselves the guardians of music and will probably try to fight you if drunk enough over what note is in the second bar of some obscure Charlie Parker solo.

    Saying a guy playing for free or beer is 'cutting the legs out from under' working musicians is like saying kids cutting lawns in their neighborhood is 'cutting the legs out from under' landscapers. Last I check there's plenty o business around for both.

    As for the OP, charge as much as they're willing to pay. There's nothing wrong with playing for free, in fact, I would consider that good business. And it happens in real business all the time. It's called an 'option.' Usually what I do is, offer to play the first gig for costs...so drinks and a good meal, since I don't really play out of town. And if it works then we can negiotiate fee. The fee depends on how long I'm playing, if Its a new venue. Which is going to be 2 or 3 hours really, tops. So I mean I'd gladly consider 100 bucks for 2 or 3 hours of playing music, all the drinks I want until the doors close, a good meal, more than fair. If its a jam packed house of people there to see ME(which has yet to happen )then logically I'd ask for some of the door as well. Let the logic of the situation dictate your terms, don't be afraid to be tough in negitiation, don't be impossible, being firm is the not the same as being a d**k. Get respect and the rest will follow. Being professional has more to do with be how you behave, on time, HANDLING YOUR LICQUOR, generally are you an addition, or least a nuetral party, in the festivities all have bearing on you and say more of your professionalism than some music hall union.
    Last edited by ejwhite09; 07-30-2010 at 05:04 PM.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    It seems to me what you charge should be a reflection of how many people you attract to the establishment.

    A good classic rock band in our area might attract several hundred people to a bar.

    An exceptional jazz musician might attract 20 people to a bar.

    If I own the bar and have to pay a union scale, I can't afford to hire the jazz musician.

    If I'm in that rock band, joining the union makes no financial sense. I can demand a good wage because I'm worth it to the bar owner.

    And noone's going to undercut that classic rock band because their value is how many customers they attract. If you can bring in more folks then you'd be nuts to not charge for it and the bar owner would be nuts not to pay it.

    The only reason a bar owner would let someone undercut someone else is when the person being undercut doesn't bring in enough additional patrons to justify what they're charging.

    To the bar owner it's about patrons, to the patrons it's about entertainment. In the barroom/restuarant scenario; The musicians product isn't art, it's entertainment. Your worth isn't how well you play, it's how many patrons you attract. In this case, you should only get paid what you are worth, not what some union decides is a livable wage... We're not talking coal miners in a one company town... Musicians are highly skilled, often highly educated, and they choose their profession. (If they were after livable wages, they should have become accountants - it's much easier and pays way more).

    Post script: There's nothing wrong with pursueing music as art. But realize that Wes Montgomery worked as a machinist during most of his music career.

    Thank you! So much. Wes Montgomery, Charlie Christian, Woody Guthrie, Georges Brassens, on and on....music was so much better when it was people's release from the mundane bs in the world. I really think musicians who 'play for a living' are not as good as those who play for their sanity. Get a day job! Don't go to college and study music and get 40 grand in the hole with no employable skills, and a bunch of knowledge you could have acquired at the library with a lot of time you have spent practicing.
    I think people need to get back to considering making a living off of music soley as a luxury afforded a very few. The story of professional musicians hasn't changed in centuries, it's a life of struggle, unless you get a job in the kings court(what we might consider a record deal in modern times). So embrace the struggle if you want to be a professional musician who only wants to make a buck from playing music. I have a day job, and I play ever chance I get, everywhere, for free for money for beer for slight wink from a recent divorcee at the bar, you name it! If one day someone hears me and says 'here's your break, kid' great! If not, c'est la vie. Essentially what 'musos' are saying is I should listen to them over someone else because they need to pay rent. That's no argument at all.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltar Hornbeek
    So, a man is not to set his own value and charge is own price? That thinking is a disgusting, sickening, petulant disease. A plague on our modern economy.

    No, you can set your own value and charge your own price, don't mean somebody's gotta pay it.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    oxymoron

    There's not many gigs in my immediate neck of the woods for what I do, but the ones I have landed have paid well. I'm not competing with classic rock bands--their job is to sell beer in plastic cups and help people hook up. My job is to provide a pleasant backdrop to people eating spaghetti, drinking martinis, or contemplating adultery.

    Is that the ideal gig? No. Can a good player who's reliable and knows a lot of songs (including plenty of frank for when uncle joe gets tipsy and wants to sing "summer wind") make good money doing it? Absolutely. I have a good friend who's a piano teacher by day and a cocktail lounge player by night, and he makes enough to live comfortably. If somebody came in on his restaurant gig, he'd be hurting.

    I wanted to be done with this thread, but I can't shut up because I feel people are really not understanding what's going on here. For some people, this is their job. No, it's not art, it's not a theater stuffed with a few hundred rapt, polite listeners, but it pays these cats bills. It has nothing to do with "I'm better, so I should play" or "I can do that" or union wages any of that.

    It has to do with common, human, courtesy. I don't get whats so difficult about wanting to be a person who doesn't screw someone out of a job, someone who has a common interest, someone we should be helping out and supporting and tipping and saying "good job, thanks for keeping this music out there."

    If you can't get that, then don't be expected to be invited to that big jam session in the sky someday.
    But, who is going to just come in on his gig? He has an established relationship with the venue, obviously has some sort of audience. So I find it hard to believe that I could just walk in and say, who's playing tonight? I'll play his set for 25% less. And they'd give me the gig. and if they did, then its THEM not the guy playing. It's like if my gf cheats on me, I can't be mad at the guy who tried to sleep with her, he's a guy that's his job, I can only be mad at her she's the one who broke the bond. Either because she's just nasty or I'm not up to par. So like any relationship choose your partner well, and keep your stomach flat.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW400
    Fep,

    A lot of the places I played at had a regular customer base. The owners wanted to present live music as a something extra, something that would set them apart from the next restaurant.

    It was not my job to bring people. It was my job to entertain them with listenable (hopefully) music.

    Most restauraunts that have music appreciate it. A lot of the places coudn't be bothered changing bands. For example we would do the whole summer season at this outdoor cafe on Friday and Saturday.

    But not all owners are like that.

    I guess, after reading everybodies replies, that the real issue is undercutting has kept wages stagnant. The going rate has not gone up. In 1991 I would get $50 to play 3 hours at a restaurant w/o a liquor license

    One place I played I did for $35 playing from 10 till 1 (back in 1991) because they never had live music before so we made deal with the bar owner to try it out and see how it went.

    Now it's 19 years later and it's the same money if your lucky. That's sad. I think your post about reataurant's may be more right than I would like to admit.

    I'm a little old to be in a rock band. But I do have a tele so maybe I should join a country western band I here that pays well around here. Not too much competition.
    Wage stagnation is pretty universal across the board. I don't think you can blame that on 'undercutting' there have been dramatic changes in our culture since 1991. For one, people have a list of entertainment options beyond comprehension. In 1991, what were your options to enjoy a night....stay at home, watch network tv? Today bars and venues and therefore bands are competing with exponentially more entertainment opportunities and as the overall share of the entertainment market has decreased its quite logical to expect to see that decrease affect musicians wages, as it's affected bars and venues revenues. The situation is so dire, last time I was in the UK(08) the BBC has a special on about how many pubs were going out of business everyday in the UK, I don't want to quote the figure because I can't remember it exactly. But it was astounding.
    Last edited by ejwhite09; 07-30-2010 at 05:09 PM.

  23. #47

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    @ejwhite09

    in 1991 the minimum wage in the US was below $5. Today it's $7.50. Prices were not as high as they are today. For example the property taxes on my house have nearly doubled in the same time. Yet gigs still pay the same as they did back then for the most part.


    You are right in that there are way more places to get entertained these days but we're talking about a specific entertainment experience. Live music at the local bar/restaurant/hotel.

    I don't think asking fellow musicians to stick to some kind of pricing ethics is wrong.

    No one is entitled to a gig but how many people here would go undercut the local burger flipper just to get a job? Not many I suspect.

    Judging by some of the replies here I get the impression that some posters really don't respect music as a profession. If you 'hang your shingle out' and say hey, I'm a musician , no matter style or caliber, then you should have some ethics in the work place. Thats what I'm saying. By undercutting all you do is give the employer a bargaining chip to reduce his entertainment overhead.

    If your out there looking for work for $$ then you are a professional.

    If your out looking to play in a bar, have a few drinks and maybe hit on that divorcee, then you are a hobbyist.

    Nothing wrong with that. Just don't confuse the two. They are not the same thing anymore than the neighborhood kid that cuts your lawn for a few bucks is the same as a professional landscaper.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by markf
    hahaha

    the original poster, is scratching his head, laughing, and still doesn't have a clue what to charge.

    wow. what an amazing thread, don't know how i missed it.

    i think that:

    unions have largely outlived their original purpose and have become too powerful and perverse.

    if club owners hire crappy, cheap musicians and they play crappily (not a real word) then their patrons will sniff it out and either complain or bolt (or both).

    then, the club owners will have to rethink their "entertainment marketing strategy", relative to quality. or else roll the dice.

    you see, no one is guaranteed a job or pension etc. it would be great if we were. it's too friggin bad really.

    peace out.

  25. #49

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    Minimum wage and property tax aside, which are set by human actors and divorced from supply and demand, wages have been flat for everyone, it is a deal of the force behind all this political 'awakening' going on. Even in areas where industries have expanded, the music industry, and live entertainment's, share of the market has decreased substantially.

    When you say professional, you mean it is your job, I understand. But, understand it does not mean you are better. I get the gig because I get the gig. Otherwise, I'd go down to the open mic. I mean, I could be a 'full time' musician too. Living hand to mouth hasn't appealed to me since my youth. Every professional musician I met, growing up, told me 'have a day gig, cause there is very little money in this.' So I choose to have a day job.

    The professional landscaper gets the job because he is better. So stay better and youll have no worries, which as musicians we should all be doing. This union, scab, undercutting talk is just turf marking.

  26. #50

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    I think that this problem is largely sociological or cultural. I grew up in a wealthy suburb and I ended up becoming a teacher. I'm very happy with my career, wage, living style, what have you. But when I speak with people from where I grew up, they largely entered higher wage earning careers and somehow equate salary with value. They look down on me, say my job is easier...

    I think the musicians life is not much different. For some reason, here's a career path that requires an incredible amount of time and effort, and is very poorly compensated. Society values music, just like society values education. Its important, we need it, but for some reason we don't get compensation equal to many other careers which required less time and money to achieve mastery in.

    Perhaps part of this problem is that music is fun. There will always be more musicians than gigs. That's why it is hard to make it! Maybe the way to resolve this is to have many many more bars!