The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Really nice vintage guitars are much rarer over here than in the US. I always thought the 350 would be the perfect jazz guitar for me and - since these are rare over here and in the 8-9 K realm (euro!!!!) I bought a totally mint and gorgeously flamed 1947 ES 300 about 6 months ago. And it sounds fabulous, as you may have heard on my latest vids with it.

    The same guy I bought the 300 from all of sudden has a 350 for sale:

    Gibon ES-350-gibson-es-350-jpg

    Gibon ES-350-gibson-es-350-2-jpg


    But it has a nasty jack output repair. I mean, REALLY ugly:

    Gibon ES-350-gibson-es-350-jack-repair-jpg


    My question. Could this be fixed and at what price? That would be on top of the asking price (5450 euros)

    I could not keep my 300 (which is a real stunner, both in sound and looks) if I got this one. Not sure if it's worth it. I suspect not.

    DB

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  3. #2

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    It appears to have been repaired at least two times...

  4. #3

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    Well obviously a collector wouldn't go for it. But for a player, and assuming it plays well, it might be worth negotiating. I don't think damage like that could be completely concealed, so it would have to be accepted. Jim Hall, for example, had a huge metal plate on the side of his old 175. Ugly, but stable. I'd be dubious about another repair ever completely concealing that damage, although I guess it could be strengthened from the inside. I suspect you'd have to live with it.

    My guess is that you're a player rather than a collector, so it really comes down to price/ resale value, and how much the cosmetic damage bothered you. I suspect many members here wouldn't consider it though

  5. #4

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    I guess if it were repaired now and I assume it has, this would not bother me. Cannot make it invisible so if stable and strong then the guitarist is worth what you want to give for it.

  6. #5

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    It would make me anxious to get a guitar with this kind of repair even if it plays and sounds incredible, I think I'd lose my time inspecting it (waking in fear each time there is a wood crack noise in the house).

  7. #6

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    How much in duties would you have to pay on that if coming from the US?
    I'd only buy one w/ a repair that bad if I was certain I'd never sell it, you'll likely never get your $ back.

  8. #7

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    I realised a long time ago that I actually preferred used guitars, and didn't mind a bit of cosmetic damage. That enabled me to pick up a few old gibsons at prices that I couldn't have otherwise afforded, and I have never regretted it, including an old L4 with worse damage than than this 350. BUT that was decades ago, when old guitars were just old guitars..and priced accordingly. But I do realise that many here prefer pristine specimens. For me, the only total dealbreaker is a dodgy truss-rod - I've even bought heavily discounted neck-break 60s 335s in the past.

    It would be interesting to know what unmolested 350 asking prices are these days. No doubt DB has done his research.

  9. #8

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    hi Dutch ,for me it would come down to which one plays and sounds best ....the 350 seems very good nick apart from the jack socket area i would love either a 300 or350 !!do you like/need the cutaway ?they’re both fantastic guitars anyway

  10. #9

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    I'd be less worried about the "canoe" around the jack than the two parallel cracks outside it. Those can probably be addressed from the inside. Any repair reduces the collector value tremendously, and you could try to use this as a bargaining argument. Nobody knows what an archtop's future value will be anyway, once the current crop of collectors is gone. I'm sure a professional luthier could replace this repair with less conspicuous work. Whether the instrument's value will go up by at least his fee is another question. I think I detect some brush marks and cracqueling around the repair; how's the finish on the rest of the guitar?

    A completely different approach: sand the repaired/damaged area smooth and cover it with a thin sheet - e.g. aircraft plywood or offset aluminum. Anything tidy that reinforces the damaged area is better than the present state.

  11. #10

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    With EU 5400 being $6000. US, they've got it priced as though the repair adds value. They've already reduced the price by EU 500., and I'd say they have another 1500 EU to go......

    For me that's just too close to L-5 money - - -and an L-5 without a repair that significant

    Good luck DB, just MHO...

  12. #11

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    I must be in the minority to but me this is not in a place a person sees it playing the guitar. Certainly it can be fixed and repaired to actually be stronger than the original. The outside just does not look all that bad to me at all. The best repair would be to match the curve of the sides and glue in a piece of maple. In fact I have sides for guitars already bent that would simply fit perfect. Then apply glue all over the piece and pull it up from the inside. Then using an bolt and 2 large washers on each side as clamps, glue in the reinforcement. This has zero effect on the outside appearance of the guitar and would then in effect give you double the thickness of the sides.

    I just don't see a huge issue get it for a great price. Finally DB, if you cannot get a good sound of this box then no one else is going to either.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    How much in duties would you have to pay on that if coming from the US?
    I'd only buy one w/ a repair that bad if I was certain I'd never sell it, you'll likely never get your $ back.
    Import duties would add 25% tot the asking price if I imported from the US.

    DB

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis D
    With EU 5400 being $6000. US, they've got it priced as though the repair adds value. They've already reduced the price by EU 500., and I'd say they have another 1500 EU to go......

    For me that's just too close to L-5 money - - -and an L-5 without a repair that significant

    Good luck DB, just MHO...
    Sure, but an L5 will not sound like an ES 350. For me a P90 on a 17" vintage ES guitar is the holy grail. Fortunately my ES 300 has that covered too ... It's just that it does not have that cutaway.

    DB

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franz 1997
    It would be interesting to know what unmolested 350 asking prices are these days. No doubt DB has done his research.
    Think 8-10K in Europe.

    DB

  16. #15

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    Thanks for the reply Mark.

  17. #16

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    DB if you buy just get a luthier to do the reinforcement based on the method I suggest. The cool thing is the hole where the jack is becomes the point where you insert the bolt and then pull it up. Apply a liberal amount of glue to the back of the piece you are gluing. Slip the piece inside the f hole, use a piece of small wire threaded from existing jack hole, attached with a suitable size bolt ( in the glue in piece). Make sure you have a very large washer or something similar to keep a large footprint for the glue surface. Then pull it up taking a nut apply pressure then let it sit 24 hours. I would use titebond and I bet when I was done that the jack area would be the strongest part of the guitar. The piece of maple you use to glue from the inside does not need to be real thick either to get a good reinforcement. Think of like plywood laminations.

    BD you probably could do this your self if you can visualize what I am describing. Granted I write this stuff out it probably sounds complicate, but it is not since I cannot do complicated things.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    Import duties would add 25% tot the asking price if I imported from the US.

    DB
    well, that would make the one @ Lark St just over 6K which is what the one you're looking at is priced, no?

  19. #18

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    Hi DB,

    Just my opinion but your ES-300 is just stunning. There is little you can do with an ES-350 that you wouldn’t do with an ES-300.

    Personaly, I would keep this phenomenal ES-300.

    OTOH, I know what it means when you are after a guitar...

    Best to you.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    well, that would make the one @ Lark St just over 6K which is what the one you're looking at is priced, no?
    ....And while it has one less p/u, it just has those monograms decals but not that repair.....or ??

  21. #20

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    This instrument is a good argument for right-angled cable ends! Certainly the cost of a decent repair needs to be factored in your decision. I've shelled out for many restorative repairs in my time and never regretted it. Then again, I'm sometimes a little hazy on cost/benefit ratios....

    No question that the resale value is going to take a hit (I rarely sell guitars).

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis D
    ....And while it has one less p/u, it just has those monograms decals but not that repair.....or ??
    that wouldn't bother me as much as a destroyed side but ymmv...

  23. #22

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    My first two thoughts seeing this guitar were:

    - The finish almost looks too good, although that may just be the pictures. Are you sure it hasn't been refinished sometime in the 70s or 80s?
    - How does the repair look from the inside? It should give you further information about how bad the damage really is. After all the description says that the repair is stable. If true, that stability could be achieved by some crude woodwork from the inside that would lower the value even more.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Archtop
    Hi DB,

    Just my opinion but your ES-300 is just stunning. There is little you can do with an ES-350 that you wouldn’t do with an ES-300.

    Personaly, I would keep this phenomenal ES-300.

    OTOH, I know what it means when you are after a guitar...

    Best to you.
    Yes it is Fred. My ES 300 is in amazing mint condition with all parts original (even the frets show little wear). It's a time capsule instrument. And it sounds fantastic. And it's a flamey blonde to boot. So maybe you are right.

    You own a 300 too next to your 350?

    DB

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter
    My first two thoughts seeing this guitar were:

    - The finish almost looks too good, although that may just be the pictures. Are you sure it hasn't been refinished sometime in the 70s or 80s?
    - How does the repair look from the inside? It should give you further information about how bad the damage really is. After all the description says that the repair is stable. If true, that stability could be achieved by some crude woodwork from the inside that would lower the value even more.
    I wonder what you might mean by crude woodworking from the inside? I suppose crude work working from the inside could lower the value of a guitar but I am wondering how? I guess what I am asking is what would you define as crude woodworking from inside the guitar? Since I repair guitars for a living this has me wondering.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    I wonder what you might mean by crude woodworking from the inside? I suppose crude work working from the inside could lower the value of a guitar but I am wondering how? I guess what I am asking is what would you define as crude woodworking from inside the guitar? Since I repair guitars for a living this has me wondering.
    I thought of that ' crude inside ' too ! Does it look like a cobbled up mess inside, does it scream ' Mister Fix-It ', with glue dripping everywhere, or screws on top of screws, stripped threads, too many braces, etc etc ??

    That teardrop shaped piece looks like a knowledgeable repair, but the box-shaped crack looks exactly like it's along a backing piece they may have used.

    Basically by ' crude woodworking ' it'd be like a perfectly good looking drywall repair at your home that starts to show a small water leak a year later, and you finally open the wall and get the surprise, which is never pleasant.
    Last edited by Dennis D; 10-21-2019 at 09:39 PM.