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Anyway, I don’t want to say anyone’s approach to improv is lesser than any other. I mean it in the sense of checking out sounds and approaches.
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10-01-2019 02:17 PM
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Well put! They helped me understand what I had been hearing, but hadn't taken the time to transcribe, myself. I think Chet Baker's Autumn leaves solo begins with a good example of the basic use of the concept. (...If I remember correctly)
Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yeah, good catch (I looked at a transcription) ... Originally Posted by ScottM
Well it's slightly more complex, he plays (on the second beat)
A G F E Eb F | D C
That little Eb-F-E thing give a little rhythmic & melodic variety to the line. With Barry you can go from
1 7 b7 6 5 4 3 2 | 1
All the way to things like
1 7 b7 1 6 b6 5 b5 4 5 3 b3 2 b2 1
Where we have every note of the chromatic scale, but arranged so that the notes of the dominant scale end up on the beat, but happens to be a cool sounding line.
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Would you be kind enough to explain what you mean by "harmonizing" bebop scales? Sounds intriguing. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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David Baker discusses the evolution of bebop scales in his "How to Play Bebop Vol 1." He talks about Bird "groping" for a systematic approach to giving scales more swing and forward motion. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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All due respect to Mr Baker, but Django and Louis were already playing ‘bop’ scales. Originally Posted by buduranus2
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This is Barry Harris’s harmonic system, also referred to as ‘sixth-Diminished’ scales (although there are some other scales in it as well). A good explanation and examples in this video: Originally Posted by buduranus2
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He means the maj-6 dim scale which superficially resembles the major ‘bebop’ scale. Originally Posted by buduranus2
Ok, so this is Barry Harris terminology. BH does not use the term bebop scale, this is a David Baker coinage afaik.
So in Barry land we have some scales that are used for create harmony, and some chromatic embellishments that are used so that major, dominant and minor scales ‘come out right.’
The two things are separate and independent, but people are always confusing them. The BH scales are used in a totally different way to the bebop scales because the added notes are actually part of the harmony not just filler.
But it’s very interesting stuff.
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Great! I've been working on the "major b6" scale but this opens it up in a way I couldn't have imagined. It's like it simplifies it while adding more harmonic depth. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Indeed Originally Posted by joe2758
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The 6 dim scale and the "bebop scale" (David Baker) are related in theory.
The half steps rules are simple:
It's either "add 1 or add 3" or
"add none or add 2"
That's bebop scale theory, and also in the David Baker books, although not in those clear and exact Barry Harris quotes.
Realize, "add 1 or add 3" and "add none or add 2" can be harmonized with diminished block chords that move chromatically. Arrangers have done that for 75 years for big bands when those chromatic passing tones show up.
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yes the BH harmonic system is really about harmony and creating chord movement, it’s very useful. Worth checking out more of those videos, e.g. Originally Posted by buduranus2
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Here is something to think about. You read everywhere that the point of bebop scale (or half step rules) is to align chord tones with the down beats. Last year I asked Barry Harris if this was true, he said no, you can put chord tones on the up beats too.
Half steps are for you to make sure your lines come out as you intend them to. Whether that's putting the chord tones on the down beats or putting them on the up beats (and accenting them that way) or to target a note or another phrase. So it's not just to put the chord tones on the down beats. They are used in order to rhythmically achieve whatever it is you want your line to be. That's my interpretation of what he said anyway.Last edited by Tal_175; 10-02-2019 at 10:07 AM.
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Excellent Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Barry’s exact words are ‘we add extra notes to make scales out right’
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Barry is a great teacher and musician... but every time I approach his materials (and I do from time to time) and begin to practice it somethnig deep inside me tells me: don't... it looks good but don't do it... I ask: why? It is good... Originally Posted by christianm77
It says: it is really good but just do not do it...
It's hard to resist really((( I feel quite stupid... I see what Barry's stuff aims to and I like that goal . I see Barry's thing even as a path there but that A-hole inside says: yes it is a good goal but you will walk the longer way around through those lanes... and maybe you will never reach there (to be honest I am almost sure you will never ever reach it)
And I can't help it.. it really kills me((( I think I should write a story about it and sell it to Tarantino or Woody Allen, they can make something out of it...
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What is ‘there’? I don’t think there is a ‘there’? Originally Posted by Jonah
Just go and check out the music. Use whatever tools seem effective to you. Following your gut is a good idea I think.
If the ‘there’ is basic skills like playing
Changes and so on (which I dare say you can already do) - I could do this before checking out Barry’s teaching. I’m in two minds, many students just don’t get Barry’s methods so I teach other stuff.
(There’s a lot of stuff you need to have down before Barry is useful. I’d been playing decent jazz guitar (good enough to hang) for over 15 years.)
I’m moving away from this stuff myself, not because I have ‘mastered it’ but just because I’m not, constitutionally, a guy who wants to play ‘bebop.’ Also I want to move a little away from playing language and towards process.
But I’m glad I did it... but then I don’t think anything I’ve got into has been a waste....
In other news I’ve been trying to get Jordan’s quadrad voicings into my playing for about 18 months and it’s REALLY HARD.
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Well... there is a 'there' in such an approach as Barry's. Originally Posted by christianm77
I was partly joking of course. I understand everything you mean.
I think what stops me is the feeling that today he forms some kind of movement and some kind of musical aesthetical system which reminds me much the approaches in modern historically informed performance education: there is some of historic reference in what his doing but at the same time he sets his own standards and through his influence these standards gradually may become 'common standards', something takes as 'be-bop' for granted.
Of course it is not like in early music becasue Barry is real bebop player from teh period what it was living tradition (and it is partly even today a living tradition).... but his students are not mostly and this creates some kind of distance whic reminds me this historical phenomen.
Hope you do not see my comment as critical againt Barry as a teacher or musician, I admire his approach - it is probably the most comprehensive musical and practical approach I ever found in music - and it is the only jazz appraoch that my friends in classical music really dig into almost immidiately - one of the greatest feature of Barry's teacher is humanity... he works not with system, he works with people playing music ...
And also great combination of systematism and oral tradition of teaching. He is the master.
PS
Jordan's approach is really cool and it shows his way of thinking very openly but to be honest I find it pretty much a system of his own for himself... I enjoy following him as if I follow in detail the way of his musical development and it is interesting becasue he is a talented and thoughtful person.
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Yes I get you. Originally Posted by Jonah
You know when I started going to Barry’s classes over a decade ago no one knew who he was.
Now he’s an octogenarian YouTube star, and the young people are all desperate for contact with something substantive instead of the hey-let’s-be-creative boomers they have to deal with at jazz school ;-)
Yes. It’s not a system. And no I didn’t see what you said as critical. Tbh I don’t mind even if you are. There are things, if not to criticise, than to critique or be aware of as an educator.Hope you do not see my comment as critical againt Barry as a teacher or musician, I admire his approach - it is probably the most comprehensive musical and practical approach I ever found in music - and it is the only jazz appraoch that my friends in classical music really dig into almost immidiately - one of the greatest feature of Barry's teacher is humanity... he works not with system, he works with people playing music ...
And also great combination of systematism and oral tradition of teaching. He is the master.
I only recommend it because I found it helpful.
In that it embodies the master/apprentice system and situated learning I see both the appeal to classical musicians and also its relationship to the past traditions of pedagogy in jazz.
Much jazz education is based on ‘here are tools do what you like’ - after a certain point that wasn’t cutting it anymore. I was fed up of playing pseudo music.
All the good players in NYC - whatever style - seem to get this, they all playing bop when 12.... or they go to Barry’s classes etc. But we see the result and try to emulate it without understanding the path. I will most likely never get near that level, but at least I have a connection to what I feel is living oral tradition.
Definitely....PS
Jordan's approach is really cool and it shows his way of thinking very openly but to be honest I find it pretty much a system of his own for himself... I enjoy following him as if I follow in detail the way of his musical development and it is interesting becasue he is a talented and thoughtful person.
What I find useful about Jordan/Stephen Harris’s approach is the same thing I found useful about Barry’s, only this time applied to the history of jazz right up to the present. It describes the music I study really rather well which atm includes a lot of post bop and contemporary jazz. But it also has applications for bebop, swing etc.
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Yeah Barry didn’t invent that, and never claimed to... Originally Posted by rintincop
He invented using this scale with non-parallel voice movement. This is where we part company with the bebop scale. And why the #5 is harmonically important, key in fact. Just play through the maj6-dim examples in the books beyond the block chord stuff.... you can do it in contrary motion, oblique motion, staggered motion etc.
There are some similarities for sure, but I don’t think it helps to confuse ‘the bebop scale’ with the ‘maj6-dim’ scale. It’s clearer if to focus exactly on how Barry teaches it rather than trying to relate it to stuff you know from elsewhere, at least at the beginning.
(It would be more accurate actually to say it’s a combination of the major and harmonic major, but I didn’t say that. :-))
Really, the #5 in a ‘bebop major scale’ (ie case 1 of the Barry harris added note rules for the major scale) is neither here nor there. You can have
1 7 6 #4 5 4 3 2 1
1 7 6 7 5 4 3 1
Etc
‘The rule is more important than the note’ Barry Harris
This is further evidenced by the fact that the dominant bebop scale is different than the dom7-maj6 scale (which is rarely used anyway, unlike the dominant scale in line construction):
1 2 3 4 b6 b7 7 1
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I think Tal_175 and Jordan have "harmonized" posts here.
A scale, any scale, is not music. In order to learn to play music, one must learn to play melodies, chords etc. A certain amount of drilling is necessary to learn the notes in the key, the harmonic structure, arpeggios, etc. You have to know that information to be able to improvise music. But as the melody of that song suggests, the way to learn to play bebop is to learn to play bebop. That sounds a little bit like a Zen koan; What I mean is learn what bebop players play. Learn the melodies, study the recorded material and learn what those notes are that they're playing and the context in which they're played.
In terms of learning the music from the theoretical/scaler side, I think Barry Harris's approach seems to be more fruitful than trying to learn bebop scales. When I hear people who have learned the Harris method play, they sound like they're playing jazz. That is often not true when I hear people who have learned from music theory books, trying to figure out how to apply various scales, etc.; in fact, that is my primary critique of my own playing most of the time. I don't sound jazz enough.
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This was cool thread... Tal... isn't that last three 8ths, F C Eb F just I V I. Personally beb scales were just a melodic device to help open harmonic doors. The expanded Harmonic rhythm door. Which helped frame Blue notes, I remember burning through bob or any standard using Bebob style of expanding changes... with harmonic organization... back in the 70's. Take some time to arrange, bob heads or solos in 5 part harmony, a sax quintet. Take some time to arrange... your personal melodic ideas.... that will open your eyes and ears.
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Originally Posted by Reg
The way I know the tune is that the last four 8th notes of the second bar (F7 ) is A C Eb F then there is a delayed resolution of F7 over the the third bar (Bb7): b9, #9 trill down to 7th of F7 which resolves to the 3rd of Bb7 on the third beat (3 to 9 arpeggio from the third of Bb7 after).Last edited by Tal_175; 10-02-2019 at 11:39 AM.
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Reg, what would you say is the difference between writing arrangements for a big band with a horn section versus writing a solo guitar arrangement? Of course there are less limitations when writing for a band/orchestra. But wouldn't you fundamentally get the same benefits by working out good (four part) chord-melody arrangements for guitar? Originally Posted by Reg
Last edited by Tal_175; 10-02-2019 at 12:05 PM.
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I still can't wrap my head around the intention or goal of the BH method. I watched the videos above and it all seems to be a very round about way to get to making music. Bebop scales or BH, I don't see why you need a system to help you place your chord tones in a line. But I admit that I am most likely missing the entire point and would love to see the light so to speak.
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