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  1. #151

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    Thing is, he could come out and play like Benson and I wouldn't care. When you're sole reason for playing is to crush everyone around you, then you aren't really making music anymore, are you?

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  3. #152

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    In all honesty, I’m trying to think of any player or composer I’ve admired who would speak about others or themselves without either kindness, humility or just silence, if they had different tastes. Keith Jarrett comes to mind for objectionable behavior, but I don’t know that he has actually tooted his own horn in public.

    Miles had an ego with the chops and skill to justify it, probably voiced a few sharp jabs here and there... wouldn’t stop me from listening to him, though. And, there are certainly players who have earned the right through hard work to be less patient with those who don’t apply themselves... some recent videos of Mike Moreno come to mind, similar to Metheny.

    But then you have the graciousness of a Jim Hall, Wes, Benson, Martino, Scofield, Stern (incredibly gracious to a fault!) Hancock, Jacob Collier... seems to me like the greater the talent, the more sincere they are in wanting to share and propagate the mysteries they are uncovering.

    Can anyone think of a few generally agreed upon great artists who inspired you, while coming from a place of extreme self importance? I can only think of those above, off the top of my head.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott
    Thing is, he could come out and play like Benson and I wouldn't care. When you're sole reason for playing is to crush everyone around you, then you aren't really making music anymore, are you?
    Many people talk about, that an artists goal, is to communicate with people through a particular medium. What’s the artistic message being communicated here. It seems more appropriate for a sports fixture, let’s step into the ring and go a few rounds. I’m sure no one would really want to hire someone like that either. So along with a bad attitude and obnoxious personality, you also become unemployable!

  5. #154

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    Well it appears all the contentious posts have now been removed anyway.

  6. #155

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    Wait. I had a completely non contentious post about a bassist I played with who played fantastic guitar. Why was that deleted?


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  7. #156

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    I’m sorry but I thought that was a great and humbling post. Nothing argumentative about it. As a matter of fact I started by saying I’m not talking about THAT but out of every mid to larger sized town or city there are better guitar players than me. And some of them aren’t guitar players. You know that one? This was an independent post.

    Did it cause a ruckus? Why was it deleted?? Who is the admin now?


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  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott
    Thing is, he could come out and play like Benson and I wouldn't care. When you're sole reason for playing is to crush everyone around you, then you aren't really making music anymore, are you?
    For some people it seems like playing ‘musician top trumps’ is a thing. Myself, I tend to like musicians that produce music I enjoy listening to. They have varying levels of musical craft.

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Wait. I had a completely non contentious post about a bassist I played with who played fantastic guitar. Why was that deleted?


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    I remember that one! It was a good one, really non contentious and on point.

    I guess it just vanished in the purge, like a collateral damage?

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by yebdox
    In all honesty, I’m trying to think of any player or composer I’ve admired who would speak about others or themselves without either kindness, humility or just silence, if they had different tastes. Keith Jarrett comes to mind for objectionable behavior, but I don’t know that he has actually tooted his own horn in public.

    Miles had an ego with the chops and skill to justify it, probably voiced a few sharp jabs here and there... wouldn’t stop me from listening to him, though. And, there are certainly players who have earned the right through hard work to be less patient with those who don’t apply themselves... some recent videos of Mike Moreno come to mind, similar to Metheny.

    But then you have the graciousness of a Jim Hall, Wes, Benson, Martino, Scofield, Stern (incredibly gracious to a fault!) Hancock, Jacob Collier... seems to me like the greater the talent, the more sincere they are in wanting to share and propagate the mysteries they are uncovering.

    Can anyone think of a few generally agreed upon great artists who inspired you, while coming from a place of extreme self importance? I can only think of those above, off the top of my head.
    Hi, Ye,
    What's the problem with people thinking differently about things? This isn't the Cultural Revolution of Chairman Mao. I find it interesting to read the differing views and their rationales. Why is it wrong for something to be right for you . . . but perhaps, not for others? We have over 7 billion souls on this planet. Good playing . . . Marinero

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I remember that one! It was a good one, really non contentious and on point.

    I guess it just vanished in the purge, like a collateral damage?
    He chose the nuclear option, don’t mess with the Belgians.

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, Ye,
    What's the problem with people thinking differently about things? This isn't the Cultural Revolution of Chairman Mao. I find it interesting to read the differing views and their rationales. Why is it wrong for something to be right for you . . . but perhaps, not for others? We have over 7 billion souls on this planet. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Hey, Marinero,

    No rules whatsoever, just observations about the people I enjoy listening to and admire. Think I pointed out that there are artists who most of us wouldn’t get along with who we all agree are still worth listening to, as there are in every field.

    Great art requires some courage, and that comes with a good degree of confidence, at some point. I’m just pointing out what has been observed over and over, that most of the top players and writers, who would be in the best positions to afford a bit of swagger, are usually the most humble and willing to share. No one made them conform to any rules of politeness or convert to communism, they just figured it out on their own.

    Maybe it’s as practical as the need for professional survival for getting gigs, keeping audiences, securing students, having more fun in general, or just wanting to share something they are excited about. Maybe they bite their tongue, while really wanting to rip someone a new one. Different for everyone, I’m sure. But me personally, I really enjoy someone even more when they produce music I dig AND can find the time to be kind, encouraging, patient, gracious and even humble with their fans and younger players.

    I’ve personally experienced that kindness over the years with players like Metheny, Bernstein, Jim Hall, Rodney Jones, Robben Ford, Jack Wilkins, Buzz Feiten, Tuck Andress, John Stowell, Mike Stern, Pierre Bensusan and non guitarists like McCoy Tyner, Dizzy Gillespie, Dexter Gordon, Jay McShann, Sonny Fortune, Chick Corea, Nicky Hopkins, Stevie Wonder and a few more great artists I’ve been fortunate to meet briefly or study with. Most of them would never remember me, received nothing of value from me except for admiration or gratitude (and the occasional car ride), yet they made my day through their approachability and kindness. It’s who they are in addition to their artistry that makes me admire them more.

    OTOH, I love Keith Jarrett, but would never again risk the price of a concert ticket. His mercurial behavior puts any live listeners at risk for a frustrating evening. You can decide what level of support artists like that deserve. Still great, but takes them down a notch in my view. But I will still listen, if it’s good music. Generally a bad idea to shoot the messenger, even if they insult yo’ mama! We are all learning.

  13. #162
    Pat Metheny is one of my favorite guitarists, but I definitely prefer his earlier work to the work he did from the early 90s forward. His earlier albums on ECM are all worth listening to again and again as you will find so much in the music that you didn’t quite hear before. The first album I’ve heard from him was Offramp. This, for me, remains my favorite PMG album followed by As Wichita Falls, So Falls Wichita Falls, Travels, and Rejoicing. I also thought highly of Bright Size Life, which showcased Metheny in a trio format and how he adapts and writes for it. Quite a special album. Of the Geffen recordings, I like the first two a good bit: Still Life (Talking) and Letter From Home. His solo album Secret Story is another favorite. I can’t say I’m a fan of his more experimental music like The Sign Of 4 or Song X (w/ Ornette Coleman). Anyway, I love a lot of his music and, yes, he’s an acquired taste, but this could be said about so many jazz musicians.

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    He chose the nuclear option, don’t mess with the Belgians.
    Ha, can you imagine if the site was Russian? You would never hear from those who left the comments again!

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Wait. I had a completely non contentious post about a bassist I played with who played fantastic guitar. Why was that deleted?


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    We guitarists can't let stories like that get out.

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    We guitarists can't let stories like that get out.
    Lol!! Ok. True. Sorry.


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  17. #166

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    I got a chance to see PM twice over the last year and once it was a solo show. I am not that familiar with his catalogue but I have a handful of his cd’s. Some of the music I find fascinating and some of it flies over my head. Seeing him play live was what made me a fan. His shows I witnessed took the audience on a sonic journey and the range of emotions he can transmit through his playing is astonishing. He puts everything he has into his performances and as an audience member I could really feel that.

    I did have the pleasure to meet him a couple of times and found him to be nothing less than a friendly pleasant person. Very far from pretentious and quite a good story teller.

  18. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    For some people it seems like playing ‘musician top trumps’ is a thing. Myself, I tend to like musicians that produce music I enjoy listening to. They have varying levels of musical craft.
    Agree 100%

    Some of my guitar heroes are people like Fred Frith, Sonny Sharrock, Derek Bailey and Joe Morris. They all play at a stunningly high level of creativity and originality. Like on another planet. Could they cut heads at a blues jam? Maybe Sonny, but that's about it.

    Originality > everything else in my book. I spent many years running scales, learning every inversion, learning standards, playing live, playing in studios. I don't regret it one bit. But I've found a creative home in free jazz and free improvisation and that requires a very different set of non-traditional priorities.

    Just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.

  19. #168

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    Bailey had chops. He played in combos and dance bands, to support his more creative work. Frith seems to know what he is doing when he plays conventionally. But, that said, I agree that free music is more satisfying than accomplished but constrained playing.

  20. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Bailey had chops. He played in combos and dance bands, to support his more creative work. Frith seems to know what he is doing when he plays conventionally. But, that said, I agree that free music is more satisfying than accomplished but constrained playing.
    I’ve heard free fans saying Metheny’s a bit crap at it. But you can’t say he didn’t have a go:

    Pat Metheny : Question & Answer

    One thing that impressed me about Pat is the breadth of his interest and participation in music.

    I’ve played a bit of free but never been to a gig. This may well change as there is a regular session close to where I am moving to. The lack of pulse/groove in European style improv is a turn off for me, but for those who like it there are obviously other appeals. I tend to enjoy free bop/jazz more - which reminds me that Song X is a cool record.

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Bailey had chops. He played in combos and dance bands, to support his more creative work. Frith seems to know what he is doing when he plays conventionally. But, that said, I agree that free music is more satisfying than accomplished but constrained playing.
    Agreed 100%. My point was just that they have different priorities. I think to be a great free player you certainly need a solid foundation and some chops. But the cutting heads style of playing is not the point of that kind of music.

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I’ve heard free fans saying Metheny’s a bit crap at it. But you can’t say he didn’t have a go:

    Pat Metheny : Question & Answer

    One thing that impressed me about Pat is the breadth of his interest and participation in music.

    I’ve played a bit of free but never been to a gig. This may well change as there is a regular session close to where I am moving to. The lack of pulse/groove in European style improv is a turn off for me, but for those who like it there are obviously other appeals. I tend to enjoy free bop/jazz more - which reminds me that Song X is a cool record.
    I honestly haven't heard much of Metheny's free playing, so I have no judgement on it. Song X is fine, but it never did a ton for me. For the record, I think Metheny is a monster player, just not really someone I personally gravitate toward.

  23. #172

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    I was under the impression that this was Pat’s most ‘free/out’ record:


  24. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I’ve heard free fans saying Metheny’s a bit crap at it. But you can’t say he didn’t have a go:

    Pat Metheny : Question & Answer

    One thing that impressed me about Pat is the breadth of his interest and participation in music.

    I’ve played a bit of free but never been to a gig. This may well change as there is a regular session close to where I am moving to. The lack of pulse/groove in European style improv is a turn off for me, but for those who like it there are obviously other appeals. I tend to enjoy free bop/jazz more - which reminds me that Song X is a cool record.
    I saw Metheny with both the SongX band and with Derek Bailey. I thought SongX worked pretty well (both live and the record). It had a lot of groove to it, and tunes with actual form and structure. I think of Ornette as kind of different from most other free players in that he plays with a pretty tone and the style comes off more as genuine/organic expression of who he is than as some sort of conscious experiment and effort to not sound like other people. OTOH, I found the show I saw with Bailey unbearable. It was brutally, painfully loud, completely devoid of any discernible structure, pattern or groove, and executed with the ugliest possible textures on all instruments. I guess if that was the intent (and I can understand in the abstract why it might be), it was successful, but it's not something I would ever go see on purpose again.

    John

  25. #174

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    Derek Bailey's mother said he was the second best guitarist in the family; after her brother, who taught him.

    I think many are prejudiced against Metheny because of his shirts and his relentless cheerfulness. If he wore black and looked glum, they would take him seriously.

  26. #175

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    Ornette is way different than most free players, which is interesting and somewhat significant in that he kind of created the style. Early Ornette doesn’t destroy tonality and meter. It just frees it. You have to really use your ears to play it. I played several concerts of just Ornette music. It’s not anything goes. There is a structure. You just have to make it happen. Listen to everybody. The chords aren’t written but they’re there. Lonely Woman, Peace, Una Muy Bonita. Great tunes.


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