The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: Shapes or notes? What, in your opinion, is more important?

Voters
226. You may not vote on this poll
  • Shapes

    37 16.37%
  • Notes

    32 14.16%
  • Both

    143 63.27%
  • I kind of just fiddle around and hope to hit the right notes.

    14 6.19%
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast
Posts 126 to 150 of 176
  1. #126

    User Info Menu

    Glad I found this thread.

    In my opinion when someone is learning the guitar the fastest way to get her/him improvise is learning some licks. Then the scales, and arpeggios. When playing with scales You think only about the shape.

    But with the arpeggios... Thats kinda saxophinist thinking. They improvise with arpeggios and guide tone lines. The chords inside the song are going in their head, they exactly know in every moment which chord is there, they know the notes inside the chord, and they know the next chords tones, so they can see, which notes are common. They are thinking in advance to link common chord notes with guide tone lines.

    And I think that is the hardest for the guitarist because there are so few players who begin learning the instrument that way. I am working on this now, its merciless... To know all the arpeggios started from 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, to know the names very fast on the guitar, in the chords, to know where I am in the song, to link the notes in the structure of the song. And all these must be musical.

    So yes, the majority of guitarist are too lazy (including me) to think in that term about the music. And yes, if we learn all the shapes of scales, arpeggios, tons of licks, notes on the fretboard, scale-chord theory and this saxophonic-like thinking, we will have much more freedom in improvising then they have.

    Just my 2 cents.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues
    Glad I found this thread.

    In my opinion when someone is learning the guitar the fastest way to get her/him improvise is learning some licks. Then the scales, and arpeggios. When playing with scales You think only about the shape.

    But with the arpeggios... Thats kinda saxophinist thinking. They improvise with arpeggios and guide tone lines. The chords inside the song are going in their head, they exactly know in every moment which chord is there, they know the notes inside the chord, and they know the next chords tones, so they can see, which notes are common. They are thinking in advance to link common chord notes with guide tone lines.

    And I think that is the hardest for the guitarist because there are so few players who begin learning the instrument that way. I am working on this now, its merciless... To know all the arpeggios started from 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, to know the names very fast on the guitar, in the chords, to know where I am in the song, to link the notes in the structure of the song. And all these must be musical.

    So yes, the majority of guitarist are too lazy (including me) to think in that term about the music. And yes, if we learn all the shapes of scales, arpeggios, tons of licks, notes on the fretboard, scale-chord theory and this saxophonic-like thinking, we will have much more freedom in improvising then they have.

    Just my 2 cents.
    I think you credit sax players with doing their homework haha. I think you can bluff it a lot more with chords behind you, and saxists can get away with a lot - but yes the ones who really know the tune do work on this stuff, as of course do the guitar players.

    Bear in mind that once you have learned the positions and got used to moving them through the keys, the hard work is done.

    Tbh while I know my positions most of my playing gets done in a few pet positions just because they sit nicely on the neck. I used to feel bad about this, but now I don't care. There's more important thing IMO to concern myself with - ear training, repertoire, and so on.

    Anyway, I do practice scales in every position for around 15m a day at least.'should probably get into arps again too. Scales and arps through tunes in various positions are always good drills and help with improvisation.

  4. #128

    User Info Menu

    Christian You are right.

    I have problem with arpeggio positions, still need few months to memorize them. I think I know many scales but my problem is that I am not thinking about notes when improvising. I prefer to using my old lick shapes, which I made out of scales, but that gets boring after a few minutes. I am trying to make new ones, but now my homework is the same what the saxophinists homework is, and I have to work on that first. Problem is that because I never thought of the notes (and chord-note relations) while improvising thats a pain in the ass...

  5. #129

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues
    Christian You are right.

    I have problem with arpeggio positions, still need few months to memorize them. I think I know many scales but my problem is that I am not thinking about notes when improvising. I prefer to using my old lick shapes, which I made out of scales, but that gets boring after a few minutes. I am trying to make new ones, but now my homework is the same what the saxophinists homework is, and I have to work on that first. Problem is that because I never thought of the notes (and chord-note relations) while improvising thats a pain in the ass...
    I don't think you should be doing any thinking when improvising.

    It takes a long time to develop flexibility. Go easy on yourself and keep doing what you are doing.

    You haven't mentioned playing phrases by ear from records. That's an important thing to do for several reasons. Hard at first, but necessary if you can't do it.

  6. #130

    User Info Menu

    It's common transcendental way of learning...

    You come to an unknow city to live... first you define some routes on the map, some point to stick to... then you make another route... another way... get to know people.. who show you the city... new unexpected roots, places... who begin to make the city more living for you...
    Yet you still live a bit by the map and guidbook so far... years pass by and you do not notice that all you learn overlap, transcends one thing another making living system complex to an extent that you cannot describe it any more with routes or points on the map because it will be simplification for you...
    You do not go and come in this city any more from point to point, you just live in it.

  7. #131

    User Info Menu

    I'm sure most of the real work is done subconsciously. That is, one practices consciously but the brain needs time to assimilate it at a deeper level. Then it appears spontaneously when playing when there's no time to be thinking.

    Or, at least, it appears to be spontaneous. It's not really.

  8. #132

    User Info Menu

    I used to be shapes , I'm starting to think of the
    chord roots too abit now ...
    Along with roman numeral function , the original melody , and listening to the inside the ear melodies (improv) that wants to come out

    Phew ! that's a lot to simultaneously think of !
    How the hell does anyone do that

    Beats me ... I just keep at it and get 'slightly' more comfortable with it the more I do

  9. #133

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    listening to the inside the ear melodies (improv) that wants to come out
    That's probably the most useful :-)

  10. #134

    User Info Menu

    interesting stuff on how sax players approach things

    whatever way it is it seems to me to be the right way

    i've always been mostly into horn players and piano players (bird and bud mainly)

    and its shapes for me all the way
    Last edited by Groyniad; 11-24-2016 at 03:55 PM.

  11. #135

    User Info Menu

    I do not really know how I play, but it is easier for me to list the things I don't think about when playing. I don't think about any named things which includes the name of the key, which notes are sharp or flat due to the key signature, the names and types of the chords, their inversions, drop types, and voicing, the note names of the chord roots, chord tones, extensions, and alterations, the Roman numeral designation of the progression chords, the functional descriptions of the progression chords and passing chords, the names of intervals and scales, and the names of their notes... I could go on, but fundamentally I do not think of any named things or named relationships between those things when playing - I don't have any verbal process going on whatsoever.


    With respect to the use of visual things (shapes, forms, patterns) I would say "indirectly" or "incidentally" to my thinking process when playing. I say this because there are innumerable things I play which I can't describe when away from the guitar... the fingering of chords and scales, the fret distances between things, etc. - but on the guitar while playing I do these things without knowing.


    Without certainty of the details, what I do use to play is the sound of the music. I practice, compose, rehearse, and perform exclusively by ear. I hear the music around me, I hear musical ideas in my mind's ear, and I just let my musical judgement pass the most appropriate, or most urgent, or most beautiful of these ideas through to the instrument.


    My underlying process element is what I call "figures", but these are not visual like drawings, shapes, patterns, or forms... here I'm using the word as in "figured out". The way I know the guitar is through "figures" (things I have figured out) that relate how things sound and interact melodically, harmonically, and rhythmically. These figures are abstract internal representations of how things sound that are not characterized by their manifest forms on the finger board, nor characterized by their theory element names and named relationships, but are held and grasped much more directly and intuitively, as the way these things sound, as the way I know and recognize their sounds, in the same way that I recognize someone's face without knowing their name - instantly, easily, naturally, effortlessly. When I practice, I am hunting for figures (new sound relationships). The figures now have kind of become a space of manifolds within which new figures just add to the continuity of the whole thing.


    Here is an example of how "figures" work for me...


    Tenderly in Eb has a part that goes Abm7 -> Bb(7) twice before going on to Bdim -> Cm -> F7 -> Fm -> E/Bb...


    When I hear the Abm7 -> Bb(7) -> Abm7 -> Bb(7) passage I think the first pair should have a more "major" sound but the second pair should have a more "minor" sound. That is just the way my ear interprets the melody and it sounds peculiar to me if something is not done to produce this "major to minor" kind of sound shift, which I am putting in quotes because it is a bit more subtle. So, I substitute some figures that I know will sound the way I want. Since I don't refer to them with theory lingo I will just show you what I do in this example...


    Original is Abm7 -> Bb(7) -> Abm7 -> Bb(7) -> Bdim -> Cm -> F7 -> Fm -> E/Bb


    The first Abm7 -> Bb(7) can be made to sound more "major" and the second Abm7 -> Bb(7) made to sound more "minor" by doing this:


    xx4446 -> x6667x -> x8(10)8(11)x -> x(11)(12)(12)(11)x
    xx4446 -> x6667x -> x898(11)x -> x(11)(12)(11)(11)x


    That works on a slow song, but a similar thing where the pace is faster or you just want less movements would be to do just this:


    xx9(11)(11)9 -> x(11)(12)(12)(11)x
    xx9(10)(11)9 -> x(11)(12)(11)(11)x


    I suspect we ear players know less about how we play (and maybe need to know less in order for it to work) than those who use explicit verbal and visual strategies to organize their understanding of music.

    Anyway, I hope this helps.

  12. #136

    User Info Menu

    Notes I suppose, but they're kind of one and the same as 'shapes' in the form of chords.

    I think I hear the notes more than I look at any shapes though.. there would be way too many shapes to just memorize if I was to think that way.

    If there were any shapes I was to consider while playing, it would probably just be basic triads.

  13. #137

    User Info Menu

    I 'd say shapes are the way to go. Think of say, the minor pentatonic, and playing in a song where the key moves a tone and a half every few bars. You don't want to be thinking ok, here are the notes of C minor pent, now which are the notes of Eb minor pent, ok now on to Gb minor pent, then find the ones on A minor pent. Or II-V-I in different keys. In Bebop you think shapes, not notes, so it is the same in every key.

    BUT, when someone says "learn the harmonic structure, not just the grip/shape", they mean learn what degree each note of the grip is, relative to the key. Doesn't matter what the actual note is, but you need to know that this is the third, that's the fifth, the 7th etc. That's what makes things work. You learn the actual shape, and what each note is (so on the minor pent 1, b3, 4, 5, b7). You learn a Maj7 chord and you know the notes are 1 7 3 5.

    Of course you'll learn the actual notes as well, but you don't actually think of them when you play. And eventually you don't think of the shapes either, you are just driven by melody as you improve in finding melodies on the fretboard. That's the actual goal, playing everything by ear and muscle memory.
    Last edited by Alter; 08-19-2019 at 08:03 AM.

  14. #138

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by andihopkins
    Hey guys,

    I'm a Jazz guitarist from Perth, Australia.
    I started on piano at age 3, but moved to guitar at around 11. I've loved it ever since.

    Just recently I've had a few piano/theory lessons with an amazing local pianist. It's been great seeing things from a different perspective, and I must say that after a few weeks, I am frustrated to realize that I (think) I have been going about the guitar the wrong way ... possibly working backwards in a sense.

    I started (and have been) learning the way most guitarist's learn - shapes and patterns.
    All these educational and instructional books/dvds seem to be filled to the rim with a million different patterns & shapes. And like a good, eager student, I have tried my best to lap them all up.

    But since seeing music from a piano's perspective (which I think we all agree is probably the best perspective to view things from) I've realized that I actually don't know much about the music, scales, chords, etc that I am playing. They are merely just shapes that I have learnt, but don't understand!

    Sure, the shapes are important, but I feel it's working backwards.
    The note's are the ingredients that make up the music, not the shapes.
    And if one knows the notes, he can create a chord, arpeggio or scale anywhere on the fretboard... just as a pianist can.

    Anywho, I could talk about this forever. But it seems that the guitar world is more interested in shapes, diagrams and patterns (being that it is easier) than actually learning and understanding the fretboard.

    It appears the logical way to learn any instrument... Am I crazy? What do you guys think?

    Feel free to also throw in any personal techniques in learning the fretboard

    Cheers,
    Andy

    Very important to learn both shapes and notes, in order to reach maximum flexibilty, if not the actual notes, at least their relation to the chord being played.

  15. #139

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    I 'd say shapes are the way to go. Think of say, the minor pentatonic, and playing in a song where the key moves a tone and a half every few bars. You don't want to be thinking ok, here are the notes of C minor pent, now which are the notes of Eb minor pent, ok now on to Gb minor pent, then find the ones on A minor pent. Or II-V-I in different keys. In Bebop you think shapes, not notes, so it is the same in every key.

    BUT, when someone says "learn the harmonic structure, not just the grip/shape", they mean learn what degree each note of the grip is, relative to the key. Doesn't matter what the actual note is, but you need to know that this is the third, that's the fifth, the 7th etc. That's what makes things work. You learn the actual shape, and what each note is (so on the minor pent 1, b3, 4, 5, b7). You learn a Maj7 chord and you know the notes are 1 7 3 5.

    Of course you'll learn the actual notes as well, but you don't actually think of them when you play. And eventually you don't think of the shapes either, you are just driven by melody as you improve in finding melodies on the fretboard. That's the actual goal, playing everything by ear and muscle memory.
    i'm on that road too Alter ....

    i say learn the shapes too
    and also learn the other notes around those shapes
    (their sounds/effects)
    for example at the 3p in C
    learn the Dm sounds near there

    I don't mean strictly l e a r n learn them ....
    just mess around with them
    learn the G7 sounds around there too
    Am , A7 etc etc learn everything about C in that area .....
    Play Blue moon ....
    make a few shapes .....

    Then do it at the 7p
    carry on

  16. #140

    User Info Menu

    Guitar lends itself to shapes. Some great players play substantially out of geometric patterns, although they can find all the sounds nearby.

    That said, I made a choice to learn everything by note name. I'm glad I did, but I still rely on some patterns too. One factor is speed. With chord changes flying by at high tempo, patterns can be advantageous.

  17. #141

    User Info Menu

    Learn shapes then get away from them fast

    Always be asking, as soon as you learn a grip:

    - can I refinger?
    - put on different strings?
    - change chord colour?
    - transpose a voice up or down an octave?
    - swap notes?
    - take notes out?
    - add notes in?
    - add open strings

    Develop flexibility....

  18. #142

    User Info Menu

    Learning shapes is how most of us started. That is fine as long as you know where the root is that names the chord.

  19. #143

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by BBGuitar
    Learning shapes is how most of us started. That is fine as long as you know where the root is that names the chord.
    That's easy , it's the bottom one

  20. #144

    User Info Menu

    3--6---2--5--7--3

    4-b7-b3-b6--1-4

    b5-7--3-6-b2-b5

    5--1--4-b7--2--5

    b6-b2-b5-7-b3-b6

    6--2--5--1--3--6

    and on, and on...

    you can find Anything in here!

    Doesn't mean I can reach it, though (when I can remember it, that is.)

  21. #145

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    That's easy , it's the bottom one
    Not always

  22. #146

    User Info Menu

    There's no getting around patterns or shapes on the guitar, the notes themselves show up that way. But for me the trick has always been the ability to try to see them all at once so that going from one to the other - or even in between them - in an instant becomes second nature. Even for the limited CAGED system of division, knowing all your shapes for every scale, arp, device, lick etc in every position for every chord type in every key.... needless to say its a lot of work!

    But it still gets down to what you do with this knowledge. Someone who stays inside of one "box" can still make great ideas happen, as opposed to someone who knows all the shapes but chooses to run scales, arps or just basic patterns on them. Of course, the player who creates his own language from the "alphabet arrays" that all these shapes provide will access the keys to the kingdom!

    I'll be meeting you all at the gates sometime....

  23. #147

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    There's no getting around patterns or shapes on the guitar, the notes themselves show up that way. But for me the trick has always been the ability to try to see them all at once so that going from one to the other - or even in between them - in an instant becomes second nature. Even for the limited CAGED system of division, knowing all your shapes for every scale, arp, device, lick etc in every position for every chord type in every key.... needless to say its a lot of work!

    But it still gets down to what you do with this knowledge. Someone who stays inside of one "box" can still make great ideas happen, as opposed to someone who knows all the shapes but chooses to run scales, arps or just basic patterns on them. Of course, the player who creates his own language from the "alphabet arrays" that all these shapes provide will access the keys to the kingdom!

    I'll be meeting you all at the gates sometime....
    I'm not sure about this, but I have the impression that some very good players do play one position at a time. So you see them in the key of G in the third position and then maybe in the seventh. The line is connected by virtue of how fast they make the position change. So, you don't hear any discontinuity.

  24. #148

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by andihopkins
    Hey guys,

    I'm a Jazz guitarist from Perth, Australia.
    I started on piano at age 3, but moved to guitar at around 11. I've loved it ever since.

    Just recently I've had a few piano/theory lessons with an amazing local pianist. It's been great seeing things from a different perspective, and I must say that after a few weeks, I am frustrated to realize that I (think) I have been going about the guitar the wrong way ... possibly working backwards in a sense.

    I started (and have been) learning the way most guitarist's learn - shapes and patterns.
    All these educational and instructional books/dvds seem to be filled to the rim with a million different patterns & shapes. And like a good, eager student, I have tried my best to lap them all up.

    But since seeing music from a piano's perspective (which I think we all agree is probably the best perspective to view things from) I've realized that I actually don't know much about the music, scales, chords, etc that I am playing. They are merely just shapes that I have learnt, but don't understand!

    Sure, the shapes are important, but I feel it's working backwards.
    The note's are the ingredients that make up the music, not the shapes.
    And if one knows the notes, he can create a chord, arpeggio or scale anywhere on the fretboard... just as a pianist can.

    Anywho, I could talk about this forever. But it seems that the guitar world is more interested in shapes, diagrams and patterns (being that it is easier) than actually learning and understanding the fretboard.

    It appears the logical way to learn any instrument... Am I crazy? What do you guys think?

    Feel free to also throw in any personal techniques in learning the fretboard

    Cheers,
    Andy
    Right on! I think your observations are very accurate. That's a great post and thread topic. Yes, guitar education has it backwards. There are serious flaws of the shape centric view of guitar.
    Yes, these shapes, positions etc. exist on the fretboard whether one acknowledges them or not. But that's not the point. The point is the thought process.
    The question is when you're playing over the changes, are you instantly AWARE of the notes you're playing and the function of the notes with respect to the chord in the moment or are you just connecting arpeggio or scale shapes?
    It is true that when you're improvising you are not always thinking of the notes. A lot of practice habits and aural decisions come into play. But when you're practicing improvisation, applying concepts to tunes, shapes limit musical understanding.
    The thing is, if your though process (especially when practicing) is based on awareness of notes and their functions, you still end up developing muscle memory of the repeated shapes and mechanical patterns. Those become mental short cuts and abstractions of your practice activities. But you retain the awareness of the notes as they become very quickly accessible. But it doesn't go the other way around. If you're thinking shapes, that doesn't automatically give you the instant awareness of notes and their functions.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-05-2019 at 12:41 PM.

  25. #149

    User Info Menu

    Here is a simple "test" , given a very simple functional (digital) pattern, say 6-7-3-5. Can you take any tune and play the pattern instantly over the chords of the tune and name the notes at the same time? It doesn't have to be at tempo. That would tell you if you're shape player or not.

    Also given a chord in any key, I think one should be able to instantly tell the function of all 12 notes with respect to the chord (b9, 6th, 3rd etc.) and be able to instantly find them anywhere on the fretboard. Ideally one should also be able to sing and aurally recognize all 12 notes with respect to any chord. Note awareness also help develop. But shapes? good luck with that.
    It should also go the other way round. Given a chord one should be able to note name of any interval (function) and instantly find it anywhere on the fretboard.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-18-2019 at 06:47 AM.

  26. #150

    User Info Menu

    Readers are shapes players too