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So I looked around the forum, and no one brought up this topic... so I will
We're often taught, lock in with the rhythm section--especially when you are a rhythm section player.
Now, this thread is as much about comping as it is about soloing or phrasing a melody.
Sure, you can lock in with the hi hat and use it to mark your "two and four"
Or you can listen to the ride.
What about getting your time from the snare hits, or the bass bombs? Yes, they aren't as "regular" or "predictable", but I think there's more information in the snare hits and bass drum hits than in the hat or ride.
There's sign posts that an experienced rhythm section will give to a soloist--these sign posts mark the form. But they don't have to be purely harmonic. I think the most effective sign posts for me are rhythmic--even fro the pianist or guitarist.
I think this is a topic worth exploring--I'm revisited it from 6 years prior, in "new clothes" so to speak--so we can do it ourselves. Reg, where are you? He got into this conversation with me a while back when I discovered (for myself) that effective comping is all about phrasing (just like solo'ing).
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07-12-2019 03:05 PM
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It’s a good topic. My first thought is that “locking in” doesn’t necessarily mean copying their rhythms, although of course it can. I think of locking in as sharing a sense of time, listening to their rhythms, and responding or complementing what they are doing. It could even mean leaving space at the right time. Doing the muted bongo thing in guitar in syncopation with the drum rhythm might be another example (as we’ve heard each other do recently!).
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Yupe, yupe--bongo, bongo
I talked about your time feel with our bass player friend and we both agreed, you are a SOLID comper (and player, but I think accompaniment is more important).
Glad you like the topic, I was thinking more about my comping when listening back to our local jam session. I'm still too busy in my comping, so it got me thinking. Where should I place my hits so that I both support and propel the soloist? It all comes from understanding the language of sign posts that the other rhythm section players communicate.
Maybe it's a cross stick click on the 4th beat of every other measure (marking a two bar phrase).
Maybe it's how a pianist plays successive eighth note hits at the end of a four bar phrase of comping.
Sign posts are all about feeling larger sections of time--marcro time. I've found that recognizing these macro time sign posts have helped me solo and comp more "musically"
Mulgrew Miller once said that your comping should make people wanna dance. I think there's a huge lesson in that!
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Originally Posted by Irez87
And Charleston variant on beat 3. Wes did a lot of this.
You’ve already commented on my clave video, and the 2 3 clave is so common in Basie, the ultimate jazz for dancing.... two bar version of the same thing.
Also the opanije phrase (2 3 clave compatible) is really common in Miles’s music. That comping figure Red uses when the music is in cut time, the riff from new milestones, and so on.
Also pushes on 1 and 3, which is a distillation of the jump jive upbeat thing.
That used to be people’s meal ticket. Now we think comping is about playing wanky chords.
Reg is a guy to listen to when he comps. You know that.
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yupe, you found me on Youtube, you snide snoshsage
Yep, I know Reg is the guy to get those funky rhythms.
But Chris, we never get each other on these here interwebs...
I wasn't talking about building rhythmic vocabulary for comping--that's extremely important...
But, what I was talking about was communicating rhythms between members of the rhythm section (bass--to--drums, drums--to--piano/guitar, bass--to-piano/guitar)
the communication between rhythm section and soloist
And how members of the rhythm section mark larger sections of time. I'm thinking a marker for a two measures, or a marker for four measures.
This gets into rhythmic phrasing--ie, how do you connect your rhythmic vocabulary in such a way that you can build a phrase that makes sense to the soloist and still be tied into the fabric that the rhythm section is weaving--we are a team in the rhythm section, right?
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Originally Posted by Irez87
I think you (or one) should play dance gigs.... basic stuff, but dancers dance to structures as well as tempos. They are improvising too.
You can’t just play a non functional harmony 11 bar tune at the right tempo. It’s funny though because the language they use is totally different.
Solos have to have clear structure too. That’s probably one of the main reasons why swing dancers don’t like bebop.
It’s basics, but I think as a section player it’s a great grounding from which to go out and do more complicated stuff. And your meat and potatoes modern jazz isn’t that different actually.
It’s not anything I’ve intellectualised. Most of this stuff I’ve picked up on the gig, and listening.
Plus when I’m playing with a rhythm sections, the intuitive communication always surprises me on playback. Partly because I try to play lots with the same sections.
Jazz isn’t about the individual as much as people think.
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Chris'77, I think you got a lot closer to my OP.
I should play with dancers, but man... why do they always feel the need to step on everyone else's step--I mean literally. Whenever we went to swing gigs, the dancers would also step on my wife's feet. She HATED that.
Jazz is definitely about the collective--that's why understanding as many non verbal cues as possible is so important. Bringing dancers into the mix and responding to THEIR sense of tempo instead of the band's--that's a cool idea.
It's like the other night. I was playing a jam with a bunch of guitarists. They were pretty good... but they kept their noses in the iPads--so much so that they missed any cue to share accompaniment or melody duties. The interaction, on their end--was lost... So I got right next to the bassist and interacted with him instead.
I've been really getting into the idea of macro time as a way to mark phrases. Sure, some soloists might take 8 bar phrases--but if they are supported with 2 bar or 4 bar markers--I think it makes life easier and more organic than if we compers are always thinking of language that operates within a single measure.
Here's an example:
Listen to what Billy Cob does behind Wynton Kelly's playing at around 1:30. You hear that cross stick on every second quarter note of the bar? That's an example of a Macro marker of a measure. Billy doesn't set his hit on the downbeat, it's a click on 2. Notice what it does to Wynton's accents and overall phrase.
When I **try** to play drums, I try to set rhythmic markers when I'm behind the set. Every two bars, I might do some sort of snare hit that is different than everything else I played--or I might place a syncopated bass bomb (or try my darndest) to mark every 4 bars.
Pianists do this as well. Let's go back to your man in red, Mr. Garland:
at around 22:50, Red is playing behind Miles on "Airegin". Since the tune is more up, placing the hits is crucial. An inexperienced comper will clutter with too many hits. But notice where Red places his chords to punctuate Miles' solo. Sometimes the hits occur every 2 measures. Sometimes he'll save his hits for the end of the bar--that's where I'm hearing Red mark the end of a rhythmic phrase.
So--Charleston, yes--"Who Parked the Car" is another great rhythmic device (just say the words and you'll have the rhythm--I learned that from Jeb Patton)--but this is about organizing that rhythmic material into a larger phrase. However, like you said, we're not playing alone. You gotta hear how the rest of the rhythm section plays as well. If I was playing with Billy Cobb (how COOL would that be--I think I'd faint) and he was doing those cross sticking figures at every second quarter of the measure--I'd find a way to incorporate that into a larger phrase. Maybe a phrase at the end of every fourth measure that goes 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and (bold for the hits)Last edited by Irez87; 07-13-2019 at 12:08 PM.
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The accented Beat could be done with the Bass also. I have heard it done with the horn section or the Rythm guitar. In a Orchestra the conductor using the baton gives the accented beat as well as tempo and time signature.
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Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
Keep it going!
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I agree that listening to Reg is an excellent idea. His rhythmic feel while comping is verrry strong. I think there's much to be gained by trying to lift some of his approach.
That said, the Reg videos I've seen have not been in a live group. Creating that sort of feel within a live group requires an overlapping skill set, but it isn't the same thing. You can mimic snare hits, for example, but if there's a drummer, he's playing actual snare hits and you have to lock together. And, if there's a busy piano and a "creative" bassist, the guitarist may be challenged to find a part that contributes to the band's sound.
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Chris'77 gets me, FINALLY
I think it's because I finally decided that there is no "beer", only LAGER!
Yey, we get to see Reg's head again
I just wanna be clear. I'm not talking about comping rhythms in isolation. And I'm not talking about using comping rhythms on the bandstand.
I'm talking about the communication that goes on in the rhythm section to mark the phrase...and ultimately, the form.
I think if we listened to Reg's comping on that video--thanks, Matt!--we could find what I'm talking about.
Reg understood this... Erg, this is when Reg and I were thinking on the same wavelength--before I started leaning in with all my ear training talk.
Okay, so can we all agree that great soloists understand phrasing? Like, 2 bar phrases, 4 bar phrases, 8 bar and so on?
Now let's add another layer. Great compers understand phrasing because comping and soloing occupy the same space... ask Bruce Foreman
OH WAIT, I can... but, I'm a chickenI finally got his digits, Mike McCoy would've been so proud (I'm referring to a really old conversation)
Dang it, this is why I need a cap. At least y'all can read this and get a laugh or be really annoyed.
So, great compers think in phrases. That means, either with subtlety or bluntness, they are also marking the phrase--and the form for the soloist.
Each "comper" has a language to communicate how they mark the time. We're not talking 2 and 4 or Charleston here. We're talking 2 bar, 4 bar, 8 bar. The drummer might place a series of bass bombs to offset the next phrase, the bass player might accent or double notes in a line (not double stops, but the same note in succession), the pianist/ guitarist--here's the rub. Here's where we get interesting. The pianist or guitarist might place more hits at the end of the rhythmic phrase to offset the next phrase (not measure, phrase). Or, the pianist/ guitarist might create a series of syncopated hits to offset the next phrase (maybe with hemiolas)--Bill Evans does this A LOT, especially on ballads. I'll find an example for my next post.
I'll put it bluntly. If you all get my train of thought (If I had the time, I'd organize this into a succinct short essay...but I already spend too much time here at JGF) than you'll see that this is a crucial conversation to be had. Too bad I'm only able to type in "train of thought" mode at the moment. If you have time, read, reread, and reread this post again. If you can find it in my posts here, this is some interesting stuff.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
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oh brother...
I guess I'll sit in my corner and think about all this interesting rhythm section stuff on my own...
Meh...
If I had you all in the same room, I could show you this all in person--I promise it'd make more sense.
Till, then--back to normal programming?
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Originally Posted by Irez87
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Cosmic, what, exactly, was there to like about Chris'77's last response?
I meant that you liked my post about Miles Davis, that you took an interest...
That's enough for me
I appreciate that more than when people take jabs at me when they don't agree with my ideas.
Chris'77, I've mistaken it before--but I get your humor more than I did before.
I can tell when a slight is actually a slight.
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I am actually genuinely confused as to what you were reacting to. My working model is you confused me with someone else who posted something of relevance.
I’d like to know because that person gets what you mean better than I do. I can then check out what they posted.
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If you don’t get what I mean, scroll back to the thread between posts #7 and #12. You appear to react positively to something I posted between those two posts but I didn’t post anything.
It’s not really a big deal.
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that you took the time to read my post (comment #7) and decided to "like" it.
That's it, nothing more. I was kidding around because we always seem to speak around each other, but we seem(?) to have a genuine respect for each other's comments and meanderings.
That's it, no harm, no foul.
The slighting was about other people on the forum, not you--no worries.
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should I try to steer this ship back on route, or should we abandon the thread?
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Originally Posted by Irez87
Interview with Billy Hart | DO THE M@TH
Here it is again.
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Not exactly what I was talking about here, more about my Youtube comment on your clave video:
Okay, well, see, going back to the undulation factor – the upbeats and whatever – that’s a system passed down for maybe millions of years. I tell my students, “It was around when we got here, and it’ll be here when we go.” The clavé is another word for God, as far as I’m concerned – it’s always been here, and it’ll always be here.
So that system of that upbeat, which causes this mood and change of textures and all of that, is referred to in Spanish as clavé. Clavé means “key.” Now – what other reason would you call a pattern, the “key?” In other words, we call it clavé, but that’s a Spanish word; if we were saying clave in English, we would be playing the key. The key to what?
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"So, okay now, getting back to Stan Getz, undulation’s just one word. The others are clarity, projection, and placement. Some of that I got from him, some from other people"
Hmm, that sounds eerily similar to what I've been saying. It's not the notes, it's where you PLACE the notes. What BH says here is exactly what I MEANT to say--it's about clarity, projection, and placement.
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Jens Larsen has an interesting video on using a metronome exercises to practice locking in without leaning on the metronome. Start around 6:30 for the more advanced exercises.
I think it relates to this topic as he sets the metronome to increasingly less obvious positions as you proceed through the video, which simulates some of what you need to be able to do on the bandstand. I’ve experimented with unusual metronome settings to challenge myself and it’s kind of fun. It feels much more musical than setting the metronome to quarter notes or even the 2 & 4. For example, I might set the metronome for one beat per measure, but treat that at the swing beat anticipating the 1. The options are limitless.
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No one ever talks about playing along with records.
Has anyone played or had a Supro Amulet ?
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