The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    So to try to steer myself back to the OP...

    I'm sure it couldn't hurt...just being around jazz all day.

    I think of Active listening and Passive listening as kind of two ends to a continuum, not an "either/or." Like others have said, I generally don't listen to music i like completely passively...there's some form of interaction, usually.

    I might have jazz on in my classroom all day, and honestly, as opposed to passively listening to it while teaching, I might honestly not be listening at all. It just provides a backdrop to daily activity, like some people turn the tv on for noise.

    When I am listening, even if it's at about the most passive level I can do, there's still probably something I'm "noticing." How helpful is that in the long run? Again...it cant hurt. You know how a tune it something gets caught in your subconscious? An ear worm? Same deal. Passive listening I think CAN make something hang around if you're a bit familiar with it already...maybe it WASN'T in your head, but now it IS.

    I can go to the grocery store and hear "Mandy" by Barry Manilow, and I'm not paying attention to it, or particularly enjoying it, as I'm trying to find a pack or raspberries without a fuzzy one on the bottom or something. But then later, there's Mandy. And I try to put on something cool, like some Deep Purple, to drown it out...and I'm singing "like a driving power big fat tires and everything...I want it...and I need you today, oh Mandy..."

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    So to try to steer myself back to the OP...

    I'm sure it couldn't hurt...just being around jazz all day.

    I think of Active listening and Passive listening as kind of two ends to a continuum, not an "either/or." Like others have said, I generally don't listen to music i like completely passively...there's some form of interaction, usually.

    I might have jazz on in my classroom all day, and honestly, as opposed to passively listening to it while teaching, I might honestly not be listening at all. It just provides a backdrop to daily activity, like some people turn the tv on for noise.

    When I am listening, even if it's at about the most passive level I can do, there's still probably something I'm "noticing." How helpful is that in the long run? Again...it cant hurt. You know how a tune it something gets caught in your subconscious? An ear worm? Same deal. Passive listening I think CAN make something hang around if you're a bit familiar with it already...maybe it WASN'T in your head, but now it IS.

    I can go to the grocery store and hear "Mandy" by Barry Manilow, and I'm not paying attention to it, or particularly enjoying it, as I'm trying to find a pack or raspberries without a fuzzy one on the bottom or something. But then later, there's Mandy. And I try to put on something cool, like some Deep Purple, to drown it out...and I'm singing "like a driving power big fat tires and everything...I want it...and I need you today, oh Mandy..."
    Well, thanks very much for that Mr. B. Just by writing the word "Mandy" you've reanimated an earworm I've only intermittantly been able to keep tamped down since 19 friggin' 74.

    Which leads me to a thought -- this stuff about passive listening's effect on musicianship? Age probably plays a big part. There are songs I absorbed as a kid without actively "learning" that I can still sing, in some cases pretty completely. Something similar likely happened with beats and rhythms.

    John

  4. #53

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    Someone played the Peacocks today in the coffee shop and I was totally unable to concentrate on my admin.

    I don’t really do background music at the best of times, but how the fuck does Esperanza sing and play like that at the same time????

  5. #54

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    Oooh, was it Esperanzas version? Man is that good. Junjo is a fucking killer album.

    And John A., another interesting thing is how our mind incorrectly fills in gaps on stuff we think we know but haven't really listened to closely...ask a random guitar player to play the intro to johnny b. Goode... or play a bossa nova rhythm and watch what they do with the bass notes...

  6. #55

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    I think it has more impact early in life, even early childhood. I think it's like language -- after ages 9 -11 or so, you're going to have an accent.

    Later, I think it can help with appreciating the feel of an idiom, but it's hard to get rid of the accent.

    Playing along with records may be more effective because it's easier to hear when you're off the groove.

    Practicing Brazilian music by playing along vs. practicing subdivisions are two different things. Brazilian music is not played in precise subdivisions. If you're exactly on the metronome for all beats, you're off the groove. Listening to a lot of music played that way has to help.

  7. #56

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    And jazz is played in precise subdivisions?

    That's the whole point...this music we love is NOT math.

  8. #57
    Subdivisions aren't just "math" either though. I guess I n have just heard too many people approximating rhythms they don't understand at a basic level... Sixteenths for triplets and vice versa. Trying to emulate that "loose laid-back feel" of certain jazz players ....who are just playing triplets or something.

    Many, many real players otherwise, who think jazz is literally about just not playing in time.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    And jazz is played in precise subdivisions?

    That's the whole point...this music we love is NOT math.
    That's right. I think it's more obvious when you try to play a style that you didn't grow up with.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Subdivisions aren't just "math" either though. I guess I n have just heard too many people approximating rhythms they don't understand at a basic level... Sixteenths for triplets and vice versa. Trying to emulate that "loose laid-back feel" of certain jazz players ....who are just playing triplets or something.

    Many, many real players otherwise, who think jazz is literally about just not playing in time.
    I agree with this. Jazz is a lot more locked in than I thought starting out. For instance jazzers play triplets more mathematically and accurately than classical players.

    Is a Bembe pattern math? It kind of is. Are bonritmos’s Ketu codes? Yeah. Mike Longos stuff is all mathematical subdivisions.

    It’s not the aim to get people to be in a ‘maths’ mindset when they play, the idea is to go to the land of ‘oo bla di’, but the structures are there in the music. You do the ritual and magic happens. Summon the genius to take hold of you.

    Most people forget that there was always a link between maths and the mystical. There was this guy, Pythagoras, for instance.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-12-2019 at 05:06 AM.

  11. #60

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    Understanding the Samba groove

    This article contains a graph where the samba rhythm is plotted against time. The accents don't all fall on the metronome click.

    Further, the exact placement of the accents is dependent on tempo. So, it can't be notated, except, theoretically, at a specific tempo.

    I'd argue that it can't be learned from a chart.

    Swing feel, like a ride cymbal beat, is comparable. The beat changes with tempo and with player.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Understanding the Samba groove

    This article contains a graph where the samba rhythm is plotted against time. The accents don't all fall on the metronome click.

    Further, the exact placement of the accents is dependent on tempo. So, it can't be notated, except, theoretically, at a specific tempo.

    I'd argue that it can't be learned from a chart.

    Swing feel, like a ride cymbal beat, is comparable. The beat changes with tempo and with player.
    Maths - sure.

    It still relates to the quarter triplet. Ignoring the third stroke, it's kind of what happens when you morph from a 1/16 1/8 1/16th pattern to a quarter triplet. The upbeat synchronises with the triplet upbeat - look at the graph carefully.

    Like the second bar of the third Surdo pattern, say.

    It's really interesting to me that the guy who wrote the article mentions the African feel of the upbeat, but doesn't mention that 6/8 connection. Perhaps he didn't want to add more info, but it's a good way of feeling it at least for someone starting. Start out with a Oom-cha-cha waltz figure and push the second note slightly early.

    The physical bounce and the lilt in the triplet combine to create the groove. Not saying you can play it based on that understanding (although I find it helps) or that's all there is to it - there's microrhythmic naunces in most forms of music, but there's still maths to it.

    For those of us who did not grow up in Rio, we are going to need help. That classic shaker thing for instance, is a very kinaesthetic way of approximating the basic feel. You can get it good enough to start playing with people who will then refine your feel experientially.

    But it's certainly not 'random' or 'out of time' which I think is how some people feel about jazz phrasing and so on.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-12-2019 at 06:42 AM.

  13. #62

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    TBF and to elucidate what I think there's a way to teach Samba, Cuban music and so on. In US jazz this West African connection was not preserved in the same way as it was in Brazil and Cuba - due to the specific nature of slavery in these different countries, so in Jazz there's a tendency to not have any language to talk about these things.

    As a result, people say thing like 'Billie Holiday sang behind the beat.' You might feel that having listen passively, for instance. That is certainly the effect of her phrasing.

    Well Billie Holiday sang very specific rhythms. Whether you choose to look at them in terms of maths, or internalise them more intuitive way, perhaps by matching the phrasing on record through very active listening, there is nothing random about this.

    You don't have to know what a quarter triplet or a 6/8 on 4/4 polymeter is to learn it - although Wynton Marsalis points this connection in Billie. Wynton should stop being so mathematical about rhythm. Maybe he'd be better at music, lol.

    If this was a drummer's forum, we wouldn't be making this false dichotomy at all. What you start out by counting, you end up feeling. It's like anything in music.

  14. #63

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    I've encountered plenty of rhythms I could feel, but if I started trying to count them, I'd be dead in the water.

    Find the clave in EVERYTHING was the best advice I ever got.

  15. #64

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    Can Rhythm or timeing be learn'd By passieve listening yes, but more so with minds that havent learn'd Bad Rhythm, timeing to begin with

  16. #65

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    Chris'77,

    Two things:

    1. Ya gotta watch the Mike Longo tapes again. All the "theory" is notated out to show the poly rhythm--yes. But, Mike's constant refrain is "don't count- don't use numbers. Listen to the tones. Verbalize the sounds of the rhythm." Interesting concept, the local trumpet player round where I live grew up around those Bebop-a-dop-alus greats. He said that bop tunes didn't have song titles originally. Diz would call out tunes by scatting the rhythms to his band mates. Verbalization.

    2. Both Jeffy B. and me (sounds like a 90s hip hop album) are saying to teach by sound and feel. We're both public school teachers. We may not teach music, but both of our fields require us to break down content as much as possible to make it feasible for our students. That doesn't mean our students are daft (I would never think that), that means ta gotta be as clear as possible. As a future edumacator, be clear and concise. Counting out the rhythm muck up the works when you are initially teaching the rhythm. Hear first, calculate after. Ask any GOOD jazz band director. Heck, I'll ask for you. You can't get any better than where I currently live--man I wish I grew up here!

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Chris'77,

    Two things:

    1. Ya gotta watch the Mike Longo tapes again. All the "theory" is notated out to show the poly rhythm--yes. But, Mike's constant refrain is "don't count- don't use numbers. Listen to the tones. Verbalize the sounds of the rhythm." Interesting concept, the local trumpet player round where I live grew up around those Bebop-a-dop-alus greats. He said that bop tunes didn't have song titles originally. Diz would call out tunes by scatting the rhythms to his band mates. Verbalization
    Have you read his book on Sight reading rhythms? It's brilliant way to go from counting to verbalisation.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Maths - sure.

    It still relates to the quarter triplet. Ignoring the third stroke, it's kind of what happens when you morph from a 1/16 1/8 1/16th pattern to a quarter triplet. The upbeat synchronises with the triplet upbeat - look at the graph carefully.

    Like the second bar of the third Surdo pattern, say.

    It's really interesting to me that the guy who wrote the article mentions the African feel of the upbeat, but doesn't mention that 6/8 connection. Perhaps he didn't want to add more info, but it's a good way of feeling it at least for someone starting. Start out with a Oom-cha-cha waltz figure and push the second note slightly early.

    The physical bounce and the lilt in the triplet combine to create the groove. Not saying you can play it based on that understanding (although I find it helps) or that's all there is to it - there's microrhythmic naunces in most forms of music, but there's still maths to it.

    For those of us who did not grow up in Rio, we are going to need help. That classic shaker thing for instance, is a very kinaesthetic way of approximating the basic feel. You can get it good enough to start playing with people who will then refine your feel experientially.

    But it's certainly not 'random' or 'out of time' which I think is how some people feel about jazz phrasing and so on.
    I want to make sure I understand your point. Are you looking at the fourth accent in the graph and pointing out that it's about a third of the way from the end of the beat? (bearing in mind that it's a graph of one beat).

    The numbers are close. And, that might hold up at vastly different tempi.

    But, the other three accents aren't so straightforward. If I understand it correctly, they would be closer to the metronome at a much higher tempo and further away at a slower tempo. Too, different players may do it differently, and they may all swing.

    In struggling to feel this the Brazilian way, I have ended up with the Little Train That Could. "I THINK I can, I THINK I can". That gets very close and has the advantage of changing with tempo.

    To return to the original point -- a player who wants to get this feel down would be wiser to play along with records than to practice subdivisions with a metronome, IMO.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I want to make sure I understand your point. Are you looking at the fourth accent in the graph and pointing out that it's about a third of the way from the end of the beat? (bearing in mind that it's a graph of one beat).

    The numbers are close. And, that might hold up at vastly different tempi.

    But, the other three accents aren't so straightforward. If I understand it correctly, they would be closer to the metronome at a much higher tempo and further away at a slower tempo. Too, different players may do it differently, and they may all swing.

    In struggling to feel this the Brazilian way, I have ended up with the Little Train That Could. "I THINK I can, I THINK I can". That gets very close and has the advantage of changing with tempo.

    To return to the original point -- a player who wants to get this feel down would be wiser to play along with records than to practice subdivisions with a metronome, IMO.
    Yep, it’s a micro-rhythmic lilt for sure, not on any grid.

    Have you tried mutating a waltz into a samba? It’s quite fun.

  20. #69

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    IF you taught it in a classroom, I'd go sound first and then get everyone to internalize it.

    If everyone knew the basic subdivisions of the measure, I'd have everyone try to figure out the rhythms after they've internalized it.

    Then, you critique it.

    Bare bones, but teaching through eliciting and pure discovery is more effective than teaching through lecture... any subject, any topic--try me (as long as I understand the topic--that's where teaching SPED gets difficult)

    Planning this way... a different story. It's harder to plan a lesson that is authentically student centered than it is to plan one that is lecture based--that's talking from experience.

    But that's a separate thread entirely. I'd be glad to go into it--I know more about teaching than I do about playing jazz (even though I've played jazz longer than I've taught). But that's a needs based thread--I won't do it unless someone is interested... it's a lot of work.
    Last edited by Irez87; 07-12-2019 at 02:43 PM.