The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51
    I think four to the floor is harder than "modern compin"

    Once you get voicings under your fingers and learn to hear the movement, you learn to skate on top of the rhythm section. Don't get me wrong, skating is hard to do.

    But playing legit four to the floor--you have to learn to drive the band--that's a lot harder than it looks.

    Btw, my favorite example of Jim Hall playing four to the floor:



    beat a lot of y'all didn't think Jim Hall could sound like that, huh?

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I think four to the floor is harder than "modern compin"

    Once you get voicings under your fingers and learn to hear the movement, you learn to skate on top of the rhythm section. Don't get me wrong, skating is hard to do.

    But playing legit four to the floor--you have to learn to drive the band--that's a lot harder than it looks.

    Btw, my favorite example of Jim Hall playing four to the floor:



    beat a lot of y'all didn't think Jim Hall could sound like that, huh?
    I always thought it was relatively straightforward, but it’s interesting how people fuck it up, so maybe it’s not.

    I learned to do it by listening to Jim

  4. #53

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    Going wildly OT, but a few thoughts on rhythm guitar

    - a lot of my favourite rhythm playing is post war - Tal Farlow, Jim Hall and that Freddie Green one note thing is all post war (Freddie was playing full chords early on) - there's a swing era to play rhythm guitar and a bop era way of doing it.
    - one thing I did remember being hard was learning to play an even four in time rather than in 2
    - even medium tempo gypsy swing jazz rhythm was a lot more in 4 than it was in 2. Check it:

    - playing fast in 4 is hard
    - I really like listening to good rhythm guitar - I think that's important

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I think four to the floor is harder than "modern compin"

    Once you get voicings under your fingers and learn to hear the movement, you learn to skate on top of the rhythm section. Don't get me wrong, skating is hard to do.

    But playing legit four to the floor--you have to learn to drive the band--that's a lot harder than it looks.

    Btw, my favorite example of Jim Hall playing four to the floor:



    beat a lot of y'all didn't think Jim Hall could sound like that, huh?
    Sounds great! I would think when JH was coming out of age it was a pre
    requisite for a jazz guitarist to be able to play a solid swing rhythm.

    It's all on the drumless gigs when things like that are revealed. I played with a trad trumpet player, first time I showed up and asked so no drummer? He looked at me funny and said, no... you are the drummer. I mean, yea, kinda obvious haha.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I would think when JH was coming out of age it was a pre
    requisite for a jazz guitarist to be able to play a solid swing rhythm.
    I think perhaps the problem with jazz these days is folks are skipping that 100 level class

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Sounds great! I would think when JH was coming out of age it was a pre
    requisite for a jazz guitarist to be able to play a solid swing rhythm.

    It's all on the drumless gigs when things like that are revealed. I played with a trad trumpet player, first time I showed up and asked so no drummer? He looked at me funny and said, no... you are the drummer. I mean, yea, kinda obvious haha.
    Well that's reflected in what I think of as the forgotten piano trio line up - bass, guitar, piano, popular through the 40s and 50s, and basically killed by Bill Evans and co AFAIK. And Jim's first record was that line up.

    Listen to the guitar player doing the 'bongo' trick on this recording by Ahmad Jamal. Red Garland stole this song arrangement for Miles, of course.



    Tal Farlow sounding like a trap set with brushes



    But given Jim didn't basically invent piano style comping on the guitar until the 60s... That's a lot of history where the guitar was playing rhythm. It's a big old slice of who we are. Too ignore that history I think is to ignore what the guitar is at its most basic, and how that can be used in jazz. Even when he was comping, Jim was strumming.

    And that spectrum between straight four time and more interactive but still highly rhythmic comping is I think a road less followed in jazz, except perhaps by Peter Bernstein.

    I will say of Kurt - he does actually strum a lot of his chords too. But has for me more of a rock influence when he does this. Like those major seventh voicings with a fourth in the bass.

    3 3 2 4 x x

  8. #57

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    This may be of interest - has been posted before

    Jim Hall's "My Funny Valentine" Chordal Comping Transcription

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    This may be of interest - has been posted before

    Jim Hall's "My Funny Valentine" Chordal Comping Transcription

    Me: Holy cow is that cool, way to go Steve!

    Also Me: I'll never in a million years sit down and read this without getting a headache.

  10. #59

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    I like how jangly and indie-ish Kurt sounds here. Not so many effects.


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I like how jangly and indie-ish Kurt sounds here. Not so many effects.

    Yea, like if Johnny Marr went to Berklee (luckily that never happened)


  12. #61

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    [QUOTE=Irez87;960321]I think four to the floor is harder than "modern compin"

    Once you get voicings under your fingers and learn to hear the movement, you learn to skate on top of the rhythm section. Don't get me wrong, skating is hard to do.

    But playing legit four to the floor--you have to learn to drive the band--that's a lot harder than it looks.

    Btw, my favorite example of Jim Hall playing four to the floor:



    beat a lot of y'all didn't think Jim Hall could sound like that, huh?[/QUOTE

    I'm reading a book, "Fifties Jazz Talk", and Brookmeyer talks about that group in it. He said that "although it's not documented, we were probably the first performing avant garde ensemble. We did a lot of group improvisation, and sometimes when I played piano, it sounded more like Webern than jazz."

  13. #62

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    If you don’t dig Pat’s music you don’t dig Pat’s music but no one can deny his talent. Making fun of the hair style and facial expressions of the most influential and worldwide successful jazz guitarist and composer of the past 45 years makes you guys sound absolutely pathetic. Motherfucker plays circles around you all day and all night, every day and every night and you crack wise about his looks? There’s a lack of class alright.

  14. #63
    Whoa... I never said he couldn't play. If you read my posts, I've said that he's an excellent musician. I've also said that I really dig his early bebop playing.

    If I could get those same lessons that we've all heard on Youtube--I'd pay to get my ass kicked by Pat--because he's a great player.

    I just don't like HIS style of playing.

    My frustration stems from everyone comparing my playing to Metheny--when I know they were talking about my muddy ass tone and not my actual playing. It's like talking about Michael Jackson. Maybe you're a pop artist, but you are trying to get a Frank Sinatra type sound. However, people keep comparing you to Michael Jackson. MJ is a fantastic performer and a hell of a singer, but his style is light years away from Frank Sinatra. MJ is more modern. Frank is more, well, Frank.

    I've never gotten into fusion, or Pat's stuff. I've focused on bebop, swing, and hard bop musicians--that's the sound I'm chasing. So to be practicing all that and listening to all that and one after another everyone is saying "why are you copying Pat Metheny"? It got beyond frustrating. So my mild distaste for Pat's playing become sort of a hatred, because I was forever chained to his association--and I really didn't want to be. It'd be a big difference if I wanted to sound like Pat.

    Then I started listening to those interviews where he bashes Kenny G. I dunno about you, but I hang around a lot of top level musicians. Instead of saving up to buy a L5CES, a Monte, or a Benne (all amazing guitars) I spend money studying with top level musicians. No one that I have studied with would ever say things like Pat did about Kenny G in public. Would they say it to me in private, heck yes. I know pro's who hate Bill Frisell and hate Sco (I like both of em). But they don't say it in public because it's bad form.

    The only musician I will ever give a pass to is Miles Davis, because Miles built so much more than Pat could even imagine. Miles is allowed to have an ego, not Pat. Miles also dealt with a lot of people treating him like shit and shit talking him because he was black--did that happen to Pat?

    Like I said, my sour taste for Pat won't harm him any. Fact of the matter is, this thread wasn't even about Pat Metheny. It was about closing your eyes while you play--I thought that was an interesting topic that I was currently wrestling with in my own playing.

    I also have an aversion to playing guitars with flat wounds, Thomastik strings, and guitars with thick tops.

    Here's the thing, whiskey. I've been personally attacked on this forum before--in fact, I left because of it. So I might say bad things about Pat Metheny, yes that's true. But I would never bad mouth you.

    So that's my whole explanation. You'll can talk about Pat till the sun goes down. I've said enough, I'll stay mum on that. Just don't ever compare my sound to Pat's. Truce?

  15. #64

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    IIRC Pat trashed Kenny G because he did something atrocious with a Louie Armstrong's record...or something. Well justified then, yes?

    Kenny G's son is a serious metal shredder btw, and can kinda play Gypsy jazz a little bit, kinda... Still, at least he's not following his daddy, which is pretty cool, makes the world better for the future.

    Any pro jazz guitarists hating on Sco or Bill, well, they deserve any misery that their lives brings them. I hope they lose all their gigs, and only play for $50 on weekends. Thats right, Im putting a curse on them!

  16. #65
    Mum's the word on Pat Metheny from here on in--unless you make comparisons between his sound and mine--thems fighting werds.

    Can we get back to my OP or kill this thread? Like I said, many people talk about closing their eyes or not looking at the fret board. I'm interesting in how it changes our note choice, our navigation of the fret board architecture, and how it helps us connect with our inner ear. When I studied jazz performance in college, there were a few students who would make the practice room pitch black and play their horn.

    And Hep, if I told you who said that about Sco and Frisell--I'd have to kill you--mwahahahaha

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Mum's the word on Pat Metheny from here on in--unless you make comparisons between his sound and mine--thems fighting werds.

    Can we get back to my OP or kill this thread? Like I said, many people talk about closing their eyes or not looking at the fret board. I'm interesting in how it changes our note choice, our navigation of the fret board architecture, and how it helps us connect with our inner ear. When I studied jazz performance in college, there were a few students who would make the practice room pitch black and play their horn.

    And Hep, if I told you who said that about Sco and Frisell--I'd have to kill you--mwahahahaha
    Well that's a clue right there. Maybe someone we both know... I'll get to the bottom of it!

    Joking, it's ok. The way I look at it, whoever hates on Sco and Bill have no soul, so they've been punished already.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    I'm reading a book, "Fifties Jazz Talk", and Brookmeyer talks about that group in it. He said that "although it's not documented, we were probably the first performing avant garde ensemble. We did a lot of group improvisation, and sometimes when I played piano, it sounded more like Webern than jazz."
    That was trendy at the time. Here’s Hall on a piece by Gunther Schuller featuring Ornette.



    Jim was IIRC a composition major? He certainly referenced Berg in his book.... I can imagine Jim appreciating the economy and tightness of Weberns music.

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That was trendy at the time. Here’s Hall on a piece by Gunther Schuller featuring Ornette.



    Jim was IIRC a composition major? He certainly referenced Berg in his book.... I can imagine Jim appreciating the economy and tightness of Weberns music.
    That's what I heard. I think you can hear it in his soloing, and--especially--his accompaniment

  20. #69

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    I recently started practicing with my eyes closed and I was shocked at how much difference it makes . I think because the guitar is so oriented to visual patterns on the fretboard , when you take that away by closing your eyes it's like your ears and hands suddenly come alive . That's what I found anyway .

    As far as Pat Metheny goes , I thought his Kenny G rant was more entertaining and inventive than most of his records . Kenny G really is the nadir of American culture .

  21. #70

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    Posted again:


  22. #71
    Ergh, I made a promise--no more Mr. PM talk.

    So it's raining in Washington, right outside Seattle. AND--I'm listening to John Coltane's After The Rain.

    I'm gonna say it because I've lived out East... the rain actually sounds beautiful out here.

    I'll have to record playing over the rain one of these days--the rain sounds like the wash of an exquisite ride cymbal--with a hint of rivets strategically put it.

    The rain sounds like Elvin hitting the ride cymbal--that's it.

    Wait... what was I talking about?

  23. #72


    Crappy playing, but listen with headphones so you can hear the rain!

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    His whole diatribe against Kenny G was beyond obnoxious--I don't like Kenny G either--but, grow up! I just don't like him!
    I guess the reason for metheny’s rant has been forgotten and people only remember the rage. Anyone who claims to respect the tradition should be appalled at Gorelick’s criminal bad taste and cluelessness in overdubbing himself on that Louis Armstrong record, as if to say I’m at the same artistic level as one of the giants of jazz and deserve to be hanging with him on the same recording. This happens a lot where I live, in a very commercial city where branding is everything and people are desperate to associate themselves with a name player, to be good by association if you will. By and large they’re mostly crap though and the majority couldn’t swing from a vine!
    Last edited by Jazzism; 07-05-2019 at 06:35 AM.

  25. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Ergh, I made a promise--no more Mr. PM talk.
    So... playing with your eyes closed. I guess we exhausted that thread... I thought there was more to talk about here.

    I'll give some ideas so that we don't devolve the thread into another PM hate fest/ PM love fest--that was never the intention of this thread...

    Anyway, playing with your eyes closed:

    1. Makes the guitar more tactile. You can feel the position you are occupying on the neck, you can feel the thickness of the string depending on what string you want to voice a note. You also can feel where your picking hand is in relation to the strings. There's much that you can feel on the guitar to correct bad technique that you can't necessarily see. Someone mentioned finding new pathways on the fret board when his eyes are closed as opposed to looking at the fret board (and seeing patterns and positions). I agree 100%. I would love to film myself playing with my eyes closed and with my eyes open--I am curious to see how I navigate differently (I know I do).

    2. My favorite--makes the sounds of the guitar more present. You focus on hearing melodies and harmonies more when you take the visual out of the picture. You connect with the melody more when you close your eyes. You can connect with what you are hearing in your head more--you can connect with what you are hearing in your environment (the rhythm section, the horn players) more.

    I played drums again at my local jam session. I'm not a drummer, but I like trying to play other instruments. Anyway, I got caught up in the ambidextrous nature of the trap drum set. I kept looking at where the floor tom was, where the snare was, where the flat ride was, and where the hi-hat was. Then I closed my eyes and focused on hearing each part of the drum and feeling out where it was spatially. I actually played better than when my eyes were open. I was able to hear how all my rhythms worked together instead of trying to rely on my eyes to visually coordinate everything.

    More thoughts?

  26. #75

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    the thread has drifted but I would say, your eyes don't make any music. I found myself looking at the fretboard out of shyness I suppose. preferring not to look out into the crowd. then I realized my eyes/brain were making visual decisions not musical ones. I realized I didn't need to look at that damn thing anymore and in fact the music flows better and more intuitively when I don't look, I know where all the sounds are so I don't need to look! But sometimes I look anyway, probably because of some self comforting mechanism I suppose. I guess the way I would say it so that every player can relate is, you look until you dont have to look, then sometimes you look anyway.

    all the best
    tim