The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #201

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    interesting thread...to quote Zafar Saood from his book of transcriptions of WES..you can play all his solos as Etudes,without accompaniments..they all have the Explications of a Bach cello suite or Coltranes giant Steps..playng jazz from the bop school requires respect for the geography ,terrain and finally the architecture of the melodic contours.so there ya go...no rhythm section..or metronome....maybe just jazz brushes ..play with Osmosis...
    Last edited by voxss; 08-28-2018 at 02:44 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    Yeah so the basic thing was that the "big 3", or counting 3 against a pulse of 2, is pretty common. he started the class doing this by everyone patting quarter notes with their foot, then clapping a 6/8 tresillo pattern (just even triplets, not 3 side of son clave) over top, your basic 3/2. then, he asked us to transfer the tresillo pattern to our feet, and clapping 4 beats on top of the 6 that we were tapping. He then played piano over top of that using the 4 as a pulse to whatever he played (I can't remember). His thing was feeling an underlying 6 when you're in 4/4.

    He went a lot deeper but unfortunately since I was also playing I didn't pick up everything he said (we had to play some of his tunes and I was fairly nervous about them, both were quite difficult)
    Cool. Yes this is something we've been talking about, but that's a cool way of practicing it.

    As I mentioned Peter B talks about feeling underlying 4 when playing in 6. That's pretty effective BTW.

  4. #203

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  5. #204

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    OOPS, I meant this one.



  6. #205

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    It’s interesting that the references people make to rhythmic study in jazz is to related forms of music that aren’t in fact jazz. Often to Cuban music, for instance.

    I think jazz is lacking an innate way of teaching or talking about the basic swing rhythms.

  7. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s interesting that the references people make to rhythmic study in jazz is to related forms of music that aren’t in fact jazz. Often to Cuban music, for instance.

    I think jazz is lacking an innate way of teaching or talking about the basic swing rhythms.
    Because music used to be played, now it's more taught than played.

  8. #207

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    Think about what you have said with reference to Cuban music

  9. #208

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    I think you might be exactly wrong.
    If you mean ‘people didn’t have to talk about this stuff.’

    I wonder if the problem is that since the music has been taught in college and listened to a lot of the rhythmic vernacular understanding has disappeared. People graduate jazz school not knowing what a Charleston is, or a second line March beat.

    Instead musicians have a bit of a tendency to talk about rhythm in mathematical abstract terms. Metrical modulations, subdivision and so on. That’s all cool, but it’s not a physical connection.

    And while they might not have broken down the exact mechanics of rhythm in the way that that YouTube I posted (I say again neither me nor the video creator necessarily think it’s useful to think about rhythm that way) they did talk about rhythm and groove, basic building blocks.

    Cuban music is still dance music foremost. The names of the different rhythms have a physical and cultural connection.

    If you read some interviews with the great jazz drummers you realise this. What would drummers talk about if not this?

  10. #209

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    I hope y'all don't analyze screwing as much as you do swinging.

  11. #210

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    Here’s a couple of interviews that I liked which talk about swinging and swing feel in some depth

    Interview with Charles McPherson | DO THE M@TH

    Interview with Billy Hart | DO THE M@TH

  12. #211

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    I have been exploring more of the uploads on the channel that the Mike Moreno class was published. This one is nice and IMO well worth a watch no matter whether you enjoy Bela particularly. In particular, with relation to this thread, he talks about the COMMONALITY of time in different styles (at around the 29 min mark). The message I take, and to be honest it is the one I already subscribed to, is that good time is good time and if one works honestly and patiently for it and always with direct experience on one's own instrument/s or body, then a respectful ear can find a way in a variety of settings.


  13. #212

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    Really hard not to play bluegrass :-)

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    I have been exploring more of the uploads on the channel that the Mike Moreno class was published. This one is nice and IMO well worth a watch no matter whether you enjoy Bela particularly. In particular, with relation to this thread, he talks about the COMMONALITY of time in different styles (at around the 29 min mark). The message I take, and to be honest it is the one I already subscribed to, is that good time is good time and if one works honestly and patiently for it and always with direct experience on one's own instrument/s or body, then a respectful ear can find a way in a variety of settings.

    Brilliant, thanks Freel. Will have a listen later.

  15. #214

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    How in their right mind would not enjoy Bela Fleck?

  16. #215

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    Everyone is on a journey, everyone has to accept the people who are present and where they are at.

    I find the incongruity of these two performances fascinating. Both work though, on their own merits.

    This one in four.



    This one in two.


  17. #216
    All this talk of upbeats etc. has kinda done my head in, the last week or so. There's a lot of questioning "what you think you're thinking about/hearing " as you play something.

    Anyway, I've been playing a lot of this rainey solo for another thread, and I noticed something peculiar as I was playing these lines repetitively. Noticed that I'm basically playing reststrokes on the upbeat much of the time, if I'm really digging in. Honestly, this isn't even something I want to analyze or think about too much. Just thought it was peculiar and interesting.

  18. #217

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  19. #218
    can i just say one last thing and then i’ll shove off. i never had or intended to think about any of this while I’m playing. for the same reason i practice anything else, i’m hoping it will cone out naturally in my playing down the road. there’s nothing wrong with overthinking sometting off the bandstand. my MO is: overthink, shed, wait

  20. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    i never had or intended to think about any of this while I’m playing. for the same reason i practice anything else, i’m hoping it will cone out naturally in my playing down the road. there’s nothing wrong with overthinking sometting off the bandstand. my MO is: overthink, shed, wait

    I like that Joe, especially one word, 'wait'.

    D.

  21. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    can i just say one last thing and then i’ll shove off. i never had or intended to think about any of this while I’m playing. for the same reason i practice anything else, i’m hoping it will cone out naturally in my playing down the road. there’s nothing wrong with overthinking sometting off the bandstand. my MO is: overthink, shed, wait
    To clarify my post, I've enjoyed the whole conversation . And I agree 100% with yours quote above. My first sentence about challenging assumptions was not a criticism or implication that anyone is overthinking things. I honestly hate when conversations turn into people accusing others of overthinking. So, I'm usually NOT in that camp by default.

    It was more of an observation - that I just found the process of "thinking about what I'm thinking about " (possibly) to be very INTERESTING. My point was more that I found it intriguing that (I guess) I'm subconsciously accenting those upbeats, even while using pretty strict alternate picking. I've always heard people talk about picking down on your upbeats or using other picking styles because of it etc. Anyway, I'm not really making any judgment of that. I just found it interesting.

  22. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    To clarify my post, I've enjoyed the whole conversation . And I agree 100% with yours quote above. My first sentence about challenging assumptions was not a criticism or implication that anyone is overthinking things. I honestly hate when conversations turn into people accusing others of overthinking. So, I'm usually NOT in that camp by default.

    It was more of an observation - that I just found the process of "thinking about what I'm thinking about " (possibly) to be very INTERESTING. My point was more that I found it intriguing that (I guess) I'm subconsciously accenting those upbeats, even while using pretty strict alternate picking. I've always heard people talk about picking down on your upbeats or using other picking styles because of it etc. Anyway, I'm not really making any judgment of that. I just found it interesting.
    I agree with all of this, and will add that I also find thinking and talking about playing this music to be lots of fun as well. We all think and talk about stuff, and I find thinking and talking about playing jazz, with the kinds of conversationalists on this forum, to be lots of fun and even, at times, elevating.

  23. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    I like that Joe, especially one word, 'wait'.

    D.
    thanks freel. my problem earlier was i posted while still in the overthinking phase because i got excited/ahead of myself

  24. #223

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    No problem Joe, we're all just spitballing on these threads and I think we all have a common goal which is the basis for any friendship, or at least respect.

    But we get excited, me probably most of all, and clumsy and don't take the time to think about other peoples intentions.

    It's all fine were just trying to help each other and share and sptiballing is always a little messy.

    I've enjoyed thinking about these things. I am currently overhauling my technique completely and that means, weirdly, playing very little, it is necessary but while my unconscious works on things I find myself rambling here.

    I appreciate your patience.

    D.

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    can i just say one last thing and then i’ll shove off. i never had or intended to think about any of this while I’m playing. for the same reason i practice anything else, i’m hoping it will cone out naturally in my playing down the road. there’s nothing wrong with overthinking sometting off the bandstand. my MO is: overthink, shed, wait
    My atittude exactly.

    If you aren't overthinking and putting everything under the microscope in your practice room, you aren't really practicing.

    If you are doing any thinking at all in performance, you are f***ed.

    There seem to be some people who never quite get that distinction. But, it's one of the most important concepts I've come across. Practice is meant to sound bad (or rather there should be a tolerance of practice sounding bad, which is why we don't practice in company). Ragman's reaction is pretty unhelpful IMO. I can hear what you are getting at.

  26. #225

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    Well some high level thinking is OK in performance, such as 'I'm going to start this solo on the G string for as long as I can bear' or 'I'm going to try and play as few notes as possible for 16 bars' etc - but anything like 'now I'm going to do this thing I've been working on' - always fall flat.