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Observation:
I use the Musician's Institute fingering pattern for the Major Scale, which is broken down into 5 patterns.
These patterns also correspond to five arpeggio patterns that MI came up with for each position.
I have found it challenging to make all of the arpeggios generated for each position fit into the original major scale pattern.
In fact, quite often the arpeggios based on different degrees do not fit inside the original major scale pattern as nicely as they do for major scale pattern 1.
I have had to create my own arpeggio patterns.
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08-22-2013 01:20 PM
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Hey There,
Not sure if this is still an open thread, but I have a question...
Chapter 3: Organizing Minor Arpeggios. Why is the V7 arpeggio different from the IIImi7 Arpeggio from the major arpeggio harmonization. The minor scale patterns follows everything else exactly except the V7. The V7 fingering they show looks like a V7 arpeggio from Pattern 3, except the notes they are playing on the B and E strings are different (is this a mistake?). Anyhow, any help will greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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Not sure I understand your question correctly. In order to not be too abstract take C major. The IIIm7 is Em7.
Now lets take the relative minor of C major whoch is A minor. If I understand your question correctly you are asking why we play E7 rather than Em7 which would be strictly diatonic.
The answer is that it sounds alright, but a bit lame since Em7 does not have a strong "pull" towards Am7, the root chord. The E7 contains a G#, which is a guide tone that absolutely wants to be resolved to A. This is the reason one substitutes a V7 for a Vm7 in a minor II V I cadence. Make sense?
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Yes, this makes sense, the V7 definitely has a stronger tonality than the Vmi7, I was just confused because everything else was same as the major except that V arpeggio.
Originally Posted by FrankLearns
Looking at this arpeggio now, I was confused again because the fingering for this pattern has you reaching up to the third on the high E string, and I am used to stopping at the root because the third is out of the scale pattern/shape.
All is clear now, so I guess I am on to the melodic minor scales. I have memorized every arpeggio in all 5 patterns and have realized that many of the arpeggio shapes get reused with different chords (major or minor) as you move up the neck...except the VII7 arpeggio is always different (not sure why that is), and there is one V7 arpeggio that is also a shape all to its own (gets used only once).
So...is this study group still happening or am I just resurrecting a zombie here?
As a bluegrass country player, this book is helping me a lot, so I guess you might say I am committed to continue with this instruction
Anyhow, thanks for your help.
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It's on my to do list to join back in with this group in the future. Really busy at work for a month or two more, after that I hope to join back in.
Re: bluegrass. I'd imagine knowing arpeggios/chord tones is going to help with any type of improvised music.
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Yeah, they certainly have helped with jazz, and with bluegrass, but bluegrass is "mostly" key centered soloing. Originally Posted by fep
This book has been a big help in understanding how to apply arpeggios in jazz, or just apply them in general...I am only at the melodic minor scale patterns right now, and will probably take a week or so to memorize...till then
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I have to say that the general approach has seeped into my studies generally. Specifically, although I don't open this book anymore, I spend time on
1. arpeggiating the chords in time with the changes in position (the connecting game)
2. writing and incorporating licks for the "situations"
Stated at that level of generality, I suppose this is a pretty standard study path for jazz guitar. I guess that's why the book works!
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I'm getting more out of this book now than I did the first time I tried it. (Maybe a year ago?)
I'm working on the major and minor ii-V-I sequences (-the long and short version of each) in the first two patterns suggested. Although it's easy enough to play through each arpeggio pattern, it's a real challenge to keep it going for a few minutes without playing the same lines over and over. I realize I don't know these shapes as well as I think I do! (Vanity of vanities, all is vanity...)
This morning I was thinking, though, what about blues? I haven't worked through the whole book, though I've glanced through it and yesterday it struck me, "Wait, the blues is a common situation for jazz players! Bird, Ellington, Miles, Monk, they all wrote blues tunes!"
I can see where common situations can fit in (-such as adding ii-Vs to basic blues changes) but how does one look at a simple I-IV-V? Say we're in F, the default major key for the book. That gives us F7, Bb 7 and Eb 7. I know arpeggios for all those chords but I'm not sure which ones go together in relation to the patterns we are taught in this book. Anyone working on this?
Mind you, I'm not complaining about the book. It's unlike any other book I've worked with and I think what makes it so valuable is that it makes you work rather than giving you a few examples to master and then moving on to the next topic. I think if someone plays the connecting game each day for, say, a year, in a few common situations, that that person will be a much more fluid and confident player. So I'm sold on the method, but I'm wondering---since I play some blues every day now anyway---how should I look at that, playing blues, in terms of this method?
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How to apply this to the blues, now there's a good topic to dive into. That old Don Mock video (originally on VHS), The Blues from Rock to Jazz, in that video I remember some arpeggio discussions.
I think this is a good idea, let's see what we can come up with. Maybe a seperate thread like, Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing - The Blues
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I think it comes relatively natural by using arpeggios over the appropriate chords and maybe also occasionally hang on a 6 or a 9 instead of the root or the third. When the V7 shows up it is fun to try triads, diminished arpeggios, the altered scale and all those nice things we learned here.
We could explore this a bit by playing over a common jazz blues progression? Would be fun!
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Count me in if we are going to have a thread on playing over blues progressions.
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I've started a thread here:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...tml#post431665
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I began working on this book last week. Another study group thread here years inactive before I got a chance to participate. :-)
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You could change all that! You could bring it back to life. Originally Posted by EFlat
What was interesting once will be interesting again.
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We only got half way through the book which seems to be a natural stopping point, like the end of the first semester of a class. I've been wanting to get back to it but changing the course a bit. I want to use the same layout of practical exercises/assignments/lick writing, but for rock and blues playing. This being a jazz site, I don't think there would be much interest in that.
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... True Fep, at some point there were not enough people left. I honestly regret to have stopped at this point as I felt I got closer to getting something out of it than I ever was. Since then my interests have also shifted back to rock and blues and a bit of gypsy but I think the method is universal and very logical.
... thanks again for organizing this back then - I had a lot of fun and your encouragement was really instrumental in getting it going!
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Maybe being late to this thread may be a good thing. I am a slow learner when it comes to guitar and might have had a hard time keeping pace with the group. I will try to post a video to YouTube in the next couple weeks. I have never tried posting to there before so the quality will most likely be bad. Putting my horrible playing on the record for everyone to see is a bit stressful for me, but probably something I need to do.
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I've adapted the teachings in this book to leavitt scale fingerings. Works a treat as I don't have to learn different scale fingerings.
Sent from my MYA-L11 using Tapatalk
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You might be surprised! Not everyone here plays rock, but blues is central to jazz. Think of the greatest jazz guitarists---Charlie Christian, Kenny Burrell, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Grant Green: they all played blues a lot, and well. Originally Posted by fep
I recently pulled this book back out. Not working in it again yet, but every morning I play the 'chordal scale' arps (one octave) in each of the five positions. (CAGED.) Then I do ii-V-I in each. Not for five minutes, not the connecting game, but I'm at a point where making that part of my daily work seems the right thing to do.
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I would bet that if you could keep doing that, you would see a noticeable improvement over time. Things have started finally sinking into my thick skull lately, and it is because I slowed down and wore my fingers out on certain patterns. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Basically, I used the scale I am most familiar with, the minor scale, and used it as a springboard to improvise with the minor blues scale, dorian, and the minor blues scale with a 9th. I grind it out as regularly as I can with a chord progression using Band in a Box, and it is finally sinking in.
Having BIAB driving you over and over has been an essential part of progressing.
If I can keep going, I will use it with more complex tunes.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR ME IS THAT I HAVE TO ACTUALLY LIKE WHAT I AM PLAYING, otherwise its like trying to memorize and internalize for a history test. I just don't have the vested interest to not have my brain do a data dump.
This was a hindrance with some of the course material I have tried to work with. I like what I am playing now, and lines and licks just pop up in my head and fingers.
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It’s been a week since I started this book. I’ve been spending about a half hour of my practice on the major scale exercise in chapter 2. I don’t have the experience most here have so it has been a grind trying to learn this exercise to the point I do not have to think much while playing it. I said grind, but that 1/2 hour before I move onto something else in my daily practice flies by. I am playing along to a metronome at a slow place very slowly increasing the pace. My biggest obstacle so far is holding my concentration, whence the grind. I lose focus in the middle of the exercise and forget what arpeggio I am on. I will do my best to try to post a video of myself playing it this weekend. Hopefully by then I’ll have exercise a bit more ingrained within myself.
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That arpeggio practice was brutal for me when I was following this course.
I really went wrong when I tried to do too many positions. If I could do it over, I would have stayed in one position before moving on, and I would play to some sort of backing track for part of the time to help fight boredom.
But that's just how I would do it.
Fight on, Amigo.
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I'd agree with working one position solidly in the beginning, and that's what Elliott strongly advocates as well. Beyond anything else, it's good ear training for resolving those arpeggios to each other. Once you get a lot of that in your ears, you can do it a lot better with shifting between positions etc. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Btw, I understand that there are some things you just have to just grind through, but there are strategies which work better and are more effective etc. For me, I think it's important to understand that the goal is the goal, and it isn't necessarily the same thing that GETS you to the goal.
If you're new to playing arpeggios, learning to play multiple arpeggios in a single position, in time , and beginning from whatever note happens to be the closest, is a very tall order. If it's really difficult, it doesn't have to be a personal deficiency. There are just too many variables in that task for your present skill level maybe.
So reduce the variables in the beginning in order to achieve the EVENTUAL goal of being able to play an arpeggio starting from the next closest note.
Take Gmaj7 to Am7, one measure each, all eighth notes. if you loop that for several minutes , there are endless variations of where you end up on the "change" each time. Again, that's the good part eventually , but if you're struggling a lot in the beginning, break it down a little more limited variables.
If you're starting from G on the third fret, sixth string, there aren't ENDLESS possibilities, there is only one really, assuming certain "rules". If you limit things to always resolving in the direction you're already going, there's only one way to play, beginning on that note:
G,B,D,F#,A,C,E,G. You can practice that repeatedly and rhythmically until you are comfortable with it.
then...
B,D,F#,G,A,C,E,G
then...
D,F#,G,B,C,E,G,A etc etc
These are concrete rhythmic patterns to train your ears/fingers to resolve to chords tones, a skill which will be very valuable in doing the exercise "for real" afterwards,... and possibly in a much shorter time frame than practicing "cold" if you're new to arps. "The grind " is okay and has its place, but not NEEDLESS grind, in my opinion. By the way you should change the "rules " Every once in a while as well. To my ear, going the OPPOSITE direction on the "change" usually sounds better (enclosure). Another one is changing a half beat later, and often that works better as well . Practice all these things as variations.
Reps help you learn anything faster. The fewer the variables, the faster you take things in.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-16-2018 at 01:08 PM.
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I thought about for a day and decided, since this is not a sprint, to stick with the chapter 2 exercise at least another week. I want to get this right before I move on. I am along going to try to play straight 8 instead of trying to swing them. Besides the useful feedback (thanks guys) I want to say another problem is I still have to think too much instead of having those arpeggios internalized. And, since I am not playing over an accompaniment, I sometimes forget what arpeggio I am playing. One more thing, when I am descending on the V7 arpeggio in the key of F my finger keeps wanting to reach for the 6th on the 4th string instead of the flatted 7th.
When I am satisfied, hopefully this weekend, I will redo the video.
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