Wrong custom guitar build

**Boston Joe** · 05-26-2018, 11:33 AM

I think David's car analogy is pretty spot on. If I ordered the model with the leather seats, and I find cloth seats when I go to pick it up, there's going to be a discussion.

You ordered what you wanted and he built something else. It may be nice, but it's not your guitar.

**deacon Mark** · 05-26-2018, 11:43 AM

Having spent time with two guitar builders if you ordered a guitar with specs, this does not happen. The analogy to me is the surgeon needs to amputate your right foot, but takes the left by mistake. Thankfully it is a guitar and I get what I ordered or no guitar.

**DonEsteban** · 05-26-2018, 12:03 PM

There's something really fishy here. I don't believe in a "mistake" like that.

And if it really was - I'd not trust him even to [insert hilarious example here] - let alone build me a guitar...

Take your money and run. The world is full of guitar builders...

Actually, some would say... there are to many of 'em :-)

(Edit

Just realize, not 1 (one) but 2 (two) mistakes.... come on.... how many easter-eggs are there built in? Wrong bracing? Missing truss rod? Or maybe this isn't your guitar. Was built for somebody else who eventually didn't take it...???

Run ...

**keith** · 05-26-2018, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

My thoughts (and regardless of my past involvement in the business these remain just my thoughts, not some sort of rules, but they are based on my real world experiences) ...

First, if there is any sort of paper trail on the build specs that state that it is to be a one pickup guitar, then there is absolutely no excuse for this and it goes way beyond anything that I would consider to be "forgivable".

I love one pickup guitars and I have owned bunches of them (and play one now). I would not consider a two pickup guitar to be an acceptable alternative. Like Jazzstdnt, I am inclined to say that I would never trust him again. On the other hand, I prefer keeping the focus on solutions that are geared towards making you whole rather than exacting punishment. So I believe that your first priority should be in getting your money back.

Obviously you're best alternative is that he simply give you an immediate refund but understand that most builders don't keep enough cash on hand to accommodate these sorts of situations (they should but should doesn't really matter). If your concern really is in getting out as clean as possible then be a realist and look for solutions rather than an outlet for your frustrations. If he doesn't have the money for a refund, then one solution is for him to sell the guitar and refund you your money from the proceeds. Another is that he gives you a large discount and you have it shipped to someone in the US and you sell it remotely for the discounted price. If you can get decent photos of the guitar once it's complete, then that can be done from NZ using sites like this one, the Gear Page and Reverb.com.

If he won't cooperate with you in any way, then these questions would have to be revisited but try first for a workable if not amicable solution. And try, however difficult it may be, to stay patient. It is better to wait through a delay and get repaid (or at leas as close to repaid as possible) than it is to give up in anger and take the entire loss.

I'm hearing your pragmatism on the builder's possible financial situation here but the last thing I'd want to do is get involved in selling someone's mistake. This builder has been sitting on the OP's deposit and now gives him the incorrect order?? He should be bending over backwards to rectify this. Immediate rebuild for the original order specs and clearly, free insured direct shipping at least! The builder's reputation is on the line here and the OP gets that crazy response from him? The other advice given, " caveat emptor " should be seriously considered.

I hope this works out for everyone involved!

**Stringswinger** · 05-26-2018, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

My thoughts (and regardless of my past involvement in the business these remain just my thoughts, not some sort of rules, but they are based on my real world experiences) ...

First, if there is any sort of paper trail on the build specs that state that it is to be a one pickup guitar, then there is absolutely no excuse for this and it goes way beyond anything that I would consider to be "forgivable".

I love one pickup guitars and I have owned bunches of them (and play one now). I would not consider a two pickup guitar to be an acceptable alternative. Like Jazzstdnt, I am inclined to say that I would never trust him again. On the other hand, I prefer keeping the focus on solutions that are geared towards making you whole rather than exacting punishment. So I believe that your first priority should be in getting your money back.

Obviously you're best alternative is that he simply give you an immediate refund but understand that most builders don't keep enough cash on hand to accommodate these sorts of situations (they should but should doesn't really matter). If your concern really is in getting out as clean as possible then be a realist and look for solutions rather than an outlet for your frustrations. If he doesn't have the money for a refund, then one solution is for him to sell the guitar and refund you your money from the proceeds. Another is that he gives you a large discount and you have it shipped to someone in the US and you sell it remotely for the discounted price. If you can get decent photos of the guitar once it's complete, then that can be done from NZ using sites like this one, the Gear Page and Reverb.com.

If he won't cooperate with you in any way, then these questions would have to be revisited but try first for a workable if not amicable solution. And try, however difficult it may be, to stay patient. It is better to wait through a delay and get repaid (or at leas as close to repaid as possible) than it is to give up in anger and take the entire loss.

This is really good advice. Small builders are often cash poor and getting your deposit back if things become angry might be difficult. I would negotiate for a workable solution and let the chips fall where they may. For the money you are spending, it should be what you want, or you should get a good enough deal so that upon selling the guitar you are as close to whole as possible. Good luck!

**mauibob** · 05-26-2018, 01:29 PM

My big “super L5” knockoff of 2bornot2b’s 18” cutaway had almost shipped out from China, when I received a photo that showed the wrong headstock design. This happened despite over 20 instances relaying my preferred shapes. His is a small shop. Nonetheless, Mr Wu built me a completely new guitar, no complaints.

**ccroft** · 05-26-2018, 02:12 PM

I've been managing a custom woodwork shop for 20 years. Despite all our best efforts these things can happen from time to time. When they do I take full responsibility and offer the client the option to accept the wrong build at a a reduced price or have us re-build it. And it's usually the re-build I offer first as I know they're not getting what they asked for.

My point here is that he should be offering the remedy. Why is it on you to come up with a solution? He knows he blew it and he should take the hit. Surely he has his reputation to consider. I'd be surprised to learn that he expects you to accept a custom build that you didn't order.

If he's a well known luthier there'll be somebody out there that'll be happy for the opportunity to jump the wait list, and possibly own a custom instrument at a somewhat reduced price.

I hope you find a happy outcome!

**oldane** · 05-26-2018, 02:28 PM

In his 1993 book "Making an Archtop Guitar", Bob Benedetto has a chapter on the business part of being a luthier. A quote from that chapter:

"If you encounter time or material loss while making an instrument, the loss is yours, not the customers. Don't burden the customer with your problems."

and

"If a problem arises, be a diplomatic professional, not a temperamental artist."

Good advice for luthiers - as well as for anyone else who has customers.

**whiskey02** · 05-26-2018, 03:10 PM

He's simply testing you to see if you'll accept a guitar he built for a different client. Make your decision.

**339 in june** · 05-26-2018, 04:35 PM

You ordered a custom made guitar, to your very specific specs, that costs a mere 5k$ ?
You have to get it ! Period.
As stated above, you don't have to find a solution to HIS problem, but HE has to !
Ask for a rebuild to your specs or an immediate and full refund
And if it doesn't go in either of these ways, send him a link to this thread, explaining that he may not stay anonymous that long !

**Thumpalumpacus** · 05-26-2018, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

Umm.. no. Two pickups when you asked for one? What kind of custom maker could make that sort of mistake? And once they realize the mistake why would they even suggest you accept such a thing? And where was the communication during the build process? Would not trust the individuals attitude on a rebuild. Ask for your deposit back. Start over.

Exactly. If he refuses to deliver exactly what you wanted, demand a refund and move on. As great as his past builds might have been, his job is to deliver what you want -- not make you eat what you don't.

I'd be hard-pressed to trust a shop that made such a glaring error.

Having run a custom-art framing shop, I know what it's like to get a mix-up in work orders. When that happened, it was my job to mollify the customer and convince him or her to return to my shop for their next job. I certainly wouldn't get that by upcharging for an error I myself made.

Make him do a rebuild, or take your money elsewhere. His reputation didn't do squat for this build for you.

**Jimmy Mack** · 05-26-2018, 06:56 PM

I really hope this works out also. I do.
But, as a carpenter for hi-end builders, I'd be fired real quick if I didn't follow orders/drawings/etc.
What is this "builder" smoking?
And yet, I have been victim to "hi-end" people dropping their sh*t on me, playing me as the fool.

No WAY. Not anymore. Don't give in. Hi-end people don't have the upper hand.

**itsall4you** · 05-26-2018, 06:56 PM

Hey guys, thank you all for your input and kind words - it's much appreciated!

Just because there are a suggestions he's trying to pass off a previous build as mine - I know for a fact that he's not trying to sell off a different guitar because I asked for a thinline version of what is normally an archtop (and he told me it was his first time doing it on the model). Odds of that happening while also having the correct finish/woods are pretty slim I imagine.

I guess a bit of an update is in order - I emailed him asking my options were. He admitted to his mistake although the tone was disappointingly casual and not very apologetic. He doesn't think the re-build will be done in time for the trip (or maybe it was a way of him saying he doesn't want to, I don't know). The only real options that he presented were buy this guitar (no mention of a DC) or get a refund after he's found another buyer for it. (Which he would quite quickly I imagine, he's a very popular builder)

I'm at a point where I still want to work something out with him because I've already invested a lot of resources in this guitar. I asked if he's sure he can't do a rebuild and if he's willing to give me a discount should I choose to stick with it or if he has something in stock that I might be interested in.

Currently waiting on the response!

Originally Posted by goldenwave77

Your spec sheets (in writing) are clear ?---one pu

How much money have you paid, to date?

Not to be cynical....maybe this guy slipped you another one he couldn't sell?

Yes the spec sheet is 100% clear about the single PU as is the gold hardware.

The deposit was 1/5 the final payment.

Originally Posted by ruger9

As for it not being done in time for the trip.... is it really cheaper to fly to the US than to have a guitar shipped to NZ?

Yes, between the shipping, multiple customs fees and taxes it works out to be about the same. I guess while the guitar is the main reason which I'm flying in, I do have a lot of friends in the States as I went to college there and have set up a couple of shows etc I guess it wouldn't be a complete 'waste' of a trip.

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Like Jazzstdnt, I am inclined to say that I would never trust him again. On the other hand, I prefer keeping the focus on solutions that are geared towards making you whole rather than exacting punishment. So I believe that your first priority should be in getting your money back.

Obviously you're best alternative is that he simply give you an immediate refund but understand that most builders don't keep enough cash on hand to accommodate these sorts of situations (they should but should doesn't really matter). If your concern really is in getting out as clean as possible then be a realist and look for solutions rather than an outlet for your frustrations. If he doesn't have the money for a refund, then one solution is for him to sell the guitar and refund you your money from the proceeds. Another is that he gives you a large discount and you have it shipped to someone in the US and you sell it remotely for the discounted price. If you can get decent photos of the guitar once it's complete, then that can be done from NZ using sites like this one, the Gear Page and Reverb.com.

If he won't cooperate with you in any way, then these questions would have to be revisited but try first for a workable if not amicable solution. And try, however difficult it may be, to stay patient. It is better to wait through a delay and get repaid (or at leas as close to repaid as possible) than it is to give up in anger and take the entire loss.

Thank you so much Jim - this is very sound advice!

**ugarte** · 05-26-2018, 07:44 PM

Sounds pretty hinky, and you seem to be taking it pretty calmly.

As some others have mentioned, a lot of builders would be desperate not to have this story get out, stuff like this can follow you around forever these days.

I wouldn't settle for anything less than what you specified, and pronto, or full refund.

**DRS** · 05-26-2018, 07:56 PM

OP

I think you should reveal the luthier as a public service lest another person gets treated poorly.

**Cunamara** · 05-26-2018, 07:57 PM

I think the clear message is "dear Mr. Luthier, this is your problem to fix and not mine." Anyone with a lick of sense who is running a business understands this. Apparently this luthier does not. Indeed, his reaction makes me think that this is not his first rodeo along these lines. Were it me, I would opt for the refund and would make it clear that he needs to pay your refund back to you immediately, not after the guitar sells. There is no reason for you to be out your money a day longer. His finances are not your problem, any more than his mistakes are your problem.

This is like buying a custom tailored suit, only to find that the pants are 3" too short and the pinstripes run sideways.

**Longways to Go** · 05-26-2018, 11:25 PM

Grab your refund and get done with this turkey!

**p1p** · 05-27-2018, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by itsall4you

The only real options that he presented were buy this guitar (no mention of a DC) or get a refund after he's found another buyer for it. (Which he would quite quickly I imagine, he's a very popular builder)

I don't think that's good enough, or very professional.

**LtKojak** · 05-27-2018, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by itsall4you

The only real options that he presented were buy this guitar (no mention of a DC) or get a refund after he's found another buyer for it.

Unacceptable in both counts.

He obviously doesn't want to take any economic hit, even admitting the mistake made was his.

I agree with the other posters suggestion to have the name of this bad businessman revealed. He doesn't deserve the anonimity.

As the guitar you've ordered is in many ways an one-off, I can understand he's weary of not being able to re-sell this particular instrument, and I even think he may have a point, so, if you don't wanna end up with an uphill, long-distance, Don Quijote-against-windmills, extremely difficult fight for a full refund (it's more than obvious the he just doesn't have the money for the refund), take the guitar as is, but with a 25/30% discount, but I'd be prepared to settle at 20%, mind you).

As I see it, this is the most likely scenario you could walk out with something you both can live with. This is the best advice I can give you, putting on my hat as a certified business/sales negotiator. Remember: both of you should know this: it's always better to have the 80% of something than the 100% of nothing.

Keep us posted, will ya?

**bananafist** · 05-27-2018, 05:08 AM

Big job, I know, but could he maybe put a new top on the guitar, and re-finish it? Just a thought.

**Alter** · 05-27-2018, 05:48 AM

Were you a US citizen he wouldn't be so casual in not offering you your money back. I hope you find a way to work around all this eventually. Buying from a far unfortunately has problems like that sometimes. If you don't reach an acceptable compromise you should consider posting the builders name, as it would be a service to buyers worldwide. It's nice to know who to avoid doing business with

**oldane** · 05-27-2018, 07:09 AM

The only real options that he presented were buy this guitar (no mention of a DC) or get a refund after he's found another buyer for it.

That's appalling. That way he maintains that he will only solve the problem as long as he himself is held free of expenses. However, it's his blunder, not yours. IMHO, if he doesn't have liquid capital to pay you back right away, it is a matter between him and his bank / rich uncle. It's not your problem. Why should you wait for getting your money back until he may or may not be able to sell the guitar elsewhere?

If it really turns out it takes a long time, your tied up and idle money should be discounted and he should compensate for that. At present, the official annual discount rate in my country (Denmark) is 4% for public investments - but in cases like this it is likely higher and will depend on the interest rate + expenses you would have to pay for taking out a loan of the same magnitude. According to Danish legislation, in cases of delayed payment a creditor can charge a an annual 8% (at this time) until the amount due is payed.

Does he also charge for the extra PU and harness, you didn't order and don't want?

**feet** · 05-27-2018, 07:18 AM

i was all for being patient and forgiving, but this guy is trying to get you to do his job. it isn't your responsibility to run his business. his not being solvent isn't your problem, but he's trying to make it yours. and now he wants to hold your money hostage until he is able to resell a custom one-off guitar?

i'd be more amenable if he were better at customer service or i wasn't paying $5000. that's crazy. none of this is your fault, so why should you have to fix it? whatever happens, this situation sucks and i feel bad for you. him, too. it was probably a reflex or an honest mistake, but this isn't how you go about it. he bears all the responsibility, holds all the cards and seems awful nonchalant about it. that doesn't sit right with me.

**vinlander** · 05-27-2018, 07:24 AM

The problem here is we are not talking about a small obscure luthier

Originally Posted by itsall4you

...

So I've gone to one of the more well known archtop builders (who will remain anonymous) around today and asked him to build me a custom made instrument...

If he truly is one of the most well known and has a long waiting list, means he shall not be living from one build to another. Doesn't mean he shall be rich, but clearly if he can't absorb his own mistake and not refund 1k before selling the guitar, he has a huge business management problem...

**Uncle Vinnie** · 05-27-2018, 08:16 AM

"Custom build" implies built to your specs, to your liking: It also implies paying someone a lot of money.

Personally I would find this totally unacceptable and demand that he build the guitar I paid for or return my money forthwith. I'd tell him he'll have to sell the guitar and take what ever loss because it's his mistake, not mine.

P.S., perhaps you should tell us who it is so the rest of us can avoid getting screwed by this guy.